Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Do you see the Divine Nature as having the ability to hate, loose hope, show wrath, and kill?

I ask because the God from the OT does these things.

But then people say, well Thee is God, as if that is an excuse or something.

My best,
LV

Pretty much agree with you in that evil does actually have a purpose. I would have to thank some of the evil of this world for being the black background that made the white dot stick out.

But I'm not so sure the god of the OT is so evil, as much as misunderstood(which I believe is why Jesus had to come and be the example, to show people the correct understanding, not the blood stuff).

Like when God removes us from the garden and destroys the tower of Babel. Or when he says not to make an idol of him etc. Sounds evil, sounds like he is just trying to keep man ignorant of the truth. But actually it is man who is evil and misunderstands, and these actions were done to protect those who are not evil. If you allow 1 evil person into heaven, then the society of heaven can no longer exist on it's principles.

Some of the stuff said though, I don't know. But it was pointed out to me yesterday that the people demanded a king/government from god. And that made ALOT of sense to me as to why things are the way they are. It wasn't intended for us to have government, but we being evil demand it as a way of protection and security against other evils. As the founding father realized, government is by it's nature evil, but there is a necessary amount for a society where evil is around, as protection from that evil.

I don't really see the commandments as laws. They are technically laws, but I see them as just natural things you'd want to live by once you know and understand the truth. But for those who don't understand, then it's law and if there is a law there must be "justice" in their eyes. They fail to realize what "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord" means. And that their "justice" is seen as just another sin, equally as wrong as the one they seek justice for.

Lets escape the delusion that god is a person...

God is just a design.. he doesnt grant your paryers... We are all "children" of the design of infinty... we are all sons of "god".

Well i guess a son would only be somone who realizez hes a product of the father... so you have to know that you are a creation of GOD/Causality before you can say you are a "son of god".

The son can only do what he sees the father do. AKA you learn from causality what it is you will be and know...from what it is you saw in your persepctive of reality.

Lets go thorugh the bible and mark what is ignorant with bright red ink.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

reply to post by badmedia


I know this is all opinions, but my opinion that God is patient and does not teach through force or impulsive behaviors, such as destroying temples or showing jealousy in the times man didnt understand.

If love is not to be jealous, I find it possible that the misunderstanding is that these abrupt behaviors in the OT is not of God, but of a jealous ruler who would like to be so.

I know many say, well God had the right to be mad and show anger....sure, but just because Thee would of had that right, doesnt mean Thee would of acted in those ways.

If a divine nature is love, compassion, patients, mercy ect...surely then God is these things consistently, without change. If God is going to act in such ways, then where did the hope or patients go?

Just sharing thoughts as always,
LV

John,

You say no evil act is anything but evil, even if a good came out of it.

What about those that killed Jesus....are we not able to see the righteous acts of Christ without this killing? Isnt that serving a purpose for us....in a weird balance kinda way?


And if your a believer Christ died for our sins...then Gods plan involved a killing by man.

Im not debating, I think these points should be covered.

LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by badmedia

 

I know this is all opinions, but my opinion that God is patient and does not teach through force or impulsive behaviors, such as destroying temples or showing jealousy in the times man didnt understand.

If love is not to be jealous, I find it possible that the misunderstanding is that these abrupt behaviors in the OT is not of God, but of a jealous ruler who would like to be so.

I know many say, well God had the right to be mad and show anger....sure, but just because Thee would of had that right, doesnt mean Thee would of acted in those ways.

If a divine nature is love, compassion, patients, mercy ect...surely then God is these things consistently, without change. If God is going to act in such ways, then where did the hope or patients go?

Just sharing thoughts as always,
LV

Yes, some of it I just don't know about. I have said before I wonder if the bible doesn't contain 2 or more people as "God". Or a good bit of "God told me to do this". But there are some things which when I first read, I thought was really bad/evil, such as the tower of babel and confusing languages, but upon further review and understanding I can see and understand why it was done.



I think if God came and told me to go kill someone, I'd probably end up in trouble for not listening, or believing he was god. I'd be like - you do it!

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

1. See I think everything serves a purpose for Thee...how is Thee to weigh our thoughts on matters such as love without also weighing our thoughts on prejudices and hate.

2. The world learns through acts of others, as a whole, we learn how to become better people, what kind of person we would like to be.

3. I agree, to do something deliberately knowing it will hurt someone is evil....but through these things, one has the opportunity to learn WHY they shouldn't do it....they may receive guilt's, regrets...and in the end, learning how to have strength to control ones self.

4. When we know of a evil act, it is our thoughts about that act that we are weighed on. Do we forgive the act? Do we love the enemy? Do we fill our hearts with empathy for the victim for Thee to see our seed? If everything was all good....would we learn?

Just thoughts

I numbered your responses so I can match my response to each of them:

1, I agree. The better one knows the Spirit of God, the better they will know the Spirit of this World. Knowing good requires one to know evil. Knowing evil does not mean you are evil. Doing evil, or wishing evil on others is evil.

2. I see nothing wrong with learning from Jesus what Divine Character is so that we can become better people.

3. & 4. One does not need to hurt people in order to learn lessons , experience guilt, or feel regret. Knowing what is evil is not the same as doing evil acts. Thinking about doing evil acts to someone is evil as well.

reply to post by badmedia


Well my point also falls along the lines that if we are to learn these natures, of patients, compassion, forgiveness and mercy....surely these are the natures that makes Thee the Almighty that Thee is.

To think God got upset because man just wasnt 'getting it' and so Thee brought floods that failed their purpose and ordered man to kill nations because God hated them and lost hope for them doesnt seem that divine to me.

Are we really to believe that entire nations were bad due to their seed? Forever not having the chance to see or awaken to this divine nature....

Would God really give us a law against killing but then use Thee Godship to allow man to kill in the order of Thee?

Would love others thoughts here.....

LV

reply to post by John Matrix


So in short, Ill re phrase my questions....

Can we learn what we need to in this life without evil?

Can we know the yin without the yang?

Could we see the light without the darkness?

How do you justify the evil things in the OT that is claimed to be works of God. Does Thee get a free pass from straying from a divine nature just because Thee is God?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Do you see the Divine Nature as having the ability to hate, loose hope, show wrath, and kill?

I ask because the God from the OT does these things.

But then people say, well Thee is God, as if that is an excuse or something.

My best,
LV

If you saw someone about to harm a helpless child would your wrath against that person be justified? This is one of those reality situations that ideals don't really work well with. If the world was ideal, there would be no wrath at all. Righteous anger and wrath is therefore justified to defend the innocent from those who seek to do harm to them.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Lets escape the delusion that god is a person...

God is just a design.. he doesnt grant your paryers... We are all "children" of the design of infinty... we are all sons of "god".

Well i guess a son would only be somone who realizez hes a product of the father... so you have to know that you are a creation of GOD/Causality before you can say you are a "son of god".

The son can only do what he sees the father do. AKA you learn from causality what it is you will be and know...from what it is you saw in your persepctive of reality.

Lets go thorugh the bible and mark what is ignorant with bright red ink.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

I see a distinction between "sons of God" and the "Son of God".
There is only one Son of God, but many sons of God.

reply to post by John Matrix



I wonder then, if anger is justified, why Jesus felt the need to not show wrath for those wanting to kill him. To me, this is what makes him righteous.

You can stick up for something, such as a child, but a wrathful reaction might not be the best reaction. Mabey there is a better choice.

Why is it we should love thy enemy and forgive those that do not know what they do....forgive and show wrath are too different things.


Turn the other cheek....OR...fight back....they are too different things.

If we are to justify certain wrathful actions, we are no more then the ones who started the wrath. How would war ever end?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
John,

You say no evil act is anything but evil, even if a good came out of it.

What about those that killed Jesus....are we not able to see the righteous acts of Christ without this killing? Isnt that serving a purpose for us....in a weird balance kinda way?


And if your a believer Christ died for our sins...then Gods plan involved a killing by man.

Im not debating, I think these points should be covered.

LV

When one does evil, but God uses it for good,
does not mean God made the evil deed good,
nor does it make God evil.

[edit on 23/1/09 by John Matrix]

reply to post by John Matrix


Possibly, but I think when Jesus told them that his body was their body and his blood was their blood....he was telling them and us that we are all a part of a ONENESS,making us all sons and daughters of Thee. Just because some dont know this or are aware of this, still doesnt make it not so.

Sons of God could be a general term for all creations/manifestations from Thee. Jesus showed how to awaken to this and the reasons to awaken to this. As a whole unit, we are to awaken to being One with the Infinite creator/manifestor of all things.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

I wonder then, if anger is justified, why Jesus felt the need to not show wrath for those wanting to kill him. To me, this is what makes him righteous.

You can stick up for something, such as a child, but a wrathful reaction might not be the best reaction. Mabey there is a better choice.

Why is it we should love thy enemy and forgive those that do not know what they do....forgive and show wrath are too different things.


Turn the other cheek....OR...fight back....they are too different things.

If we are to justify certain wrathful actions, we are no more then the ones who started the wrath. How would war ever end?

Jesus knew what his mission was and what had to take place. He could have wiped the world clean of every life form in an instant. When Jesus returns he will establish His Kingdom by force. The armies gathered to fight against Him will be instantly wiped out.

There is obviously righteous anger and righteous wrath. It's a side I did not mention and I am glad you brought it up.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Possibly, but I think when Jesus told them that his body was their body and his blood was their blood....he was telling them and us that we are all a part of a ONENESS,making us all sons and daughters of Thee. Just because some dont know this or are aware of this, still doesnt make it not so.

Sons of God could be a general term for all creations/manifestations from Thee. Jesus showed how to awaken to this and the reasons to awaken to this. As a whole unit, we are to awaken to being One with the Infinite creator/manifestor of all things.

The words he spoke were Spirit, so the meaning of His body and blood is in reference to Himself as being the food and Life for our Spirit. His Divine Nature is the Food and Life of our Spirit.

made a correction

[edit on 23/1/09 by John Matrix]

reply to post by John Matrix



Which was my point in the begening.....

Bad things serve a purpose for Thee and us.

But I dont think God uses attributes such as wrath, hate, force or shedding of blood to make us know Thee or to teach us a divine nature. These things show the flesh nature of man. I dont find God to be so short tempered or forceful, but yet, uses mans evils for man to see that these evils are not of a divine nature, only the nature of man. To think this way, God couldnt of been the one doing those impulsive behaviors of hate. Would thee lower the divine standard when dealing with people that were in need of patients and mercy from Thee?

reply to post by John Matrix


Thanks for clearing that up on what your belief is.

Our ideas of divine nature do not agree. But thank you for being honest in your thoughts.

Peace to you John,
LeoVirgo

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Which was my point in the begening.....

Bad things serve a purpose for Thee and us.

But I dont think God uses attributes such as wrath, hate, force or shedding of blood to make us know Thee or to teach us a divine nature. These things show the flesh nature of man.

I agree. I just want to clarify that Divine hatred does exist as well, but it is a hatred of evil, and that is a righteous hatred and justifiable. The evil that people do proves the very premise of my opening post concerning those who live a soulish life and deny the spiritual rebirth. Seeing the evil mankind has done should in reality soften the hardest of hearts and cause people to turn to the Divine Nature.

[edit on 23/1/09 by John Matrix]

LOL can't believe how people decide to believe the manipulation of man done through generations to have power over people, so the book written by man but said its the word of god but cannot be questioned.

Has its bases covered I see,

so anyhoo the book now a days its so outdated that since it does not apply to current times to inflict fear in the mind has been conditioned through interpretation.

well back then how many people went to school? Hardly any and we still see that kind of thing in third world countries. Fear is the most powerful tool to control people.

Is that the reason WHY you should fear the god of love? that book contradicts itself because all images created back then do not apply todays age.

Delusions is the law that most religious people live by, one last thing since this might be considered offtopic but to me it makes so much more sense to the title.

first you inflict fear thats the way to gain control over ignorant people then you offer hope and your job its done.

It is the greatest recipe for control, now offtopic the last 8 years politicians have used the same recipe.

Originally posted by Arsenis
LOL can't believe how people decide to believe the manipulation of man done through generations to have power over people, so the book written by man but said its the word of god but cannot be questioned.

Has its bases covered I see,

so anyhoo the book now a days its so outdated that since it does not apply to current times to inflict fear in the mind has been conditioned through interpretation.

well back then how many people went to school? Hardly any and we still see that kind of thing in third world countries. Fear is the most powerful tool to control people.

Is that the reason WHY you should fear the god of love? that book contradicts itself because all images created back then do not apply todays age.

Delusions is the law that most religious people live by, one last thing since this might be considered offtopic but to me it makes so much more sense to the title.

first you inflict fear thats the way to gain control over ignorant people then you offer hope and your job its done.

It is the greatest recipe for control, now offtopic the last 8 years politicians have used the same recipe.

First I inflict fear? How about watching the evening news? It's enough to make you bar up your doors and windows, sleep with a weapon under your pillow, install security cams and alarms, and never leave home.

I set before you the two ways of living. Which one do you think is responsible for all the crime and corruption? Self, or the one's that live by the Spirit of God?

I don't think I quoted one bible verse either, so why bring that up?

What control? How would I gain control? One might gain control over their sin nature, and that's not a bad thing, because the sin nature is the cause of all the world's problems.



[edit on 23/1/09 by John Matrix]