Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


That is true... it is both possible that we have a soul and that we dont. It is possible that there is an afterlife.. and that there isnt.

Once true atrifical intelligence is created what would that mean... and would it even affect people beliefs.... saddly no.

Even if aliens came down and told us that there was no free will and that an afterlife does not exist....... it wouldnt change a thing for those who have already locked themselve sin a cage. They would most likely be attacked by people who have emotional investments in the oppposite.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Um. Why would aliens be in any position to make such a claim and it be believed without question?

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Wertdagf


Also it occurs to me that you seem to be inferring that the concept of a soul is dependent upon a vengeful judgmental higher power. Which is of course consistent the mainstream judeo-christian beliefs but that is not the only possibility.
Case in point, I believe in multiple Gods *more complex than that but I am using myself as an example not trying to convert you*, I also believe everything has a soul *after a fashion*. I do not however believe anything judges us at the end of life but ourselves, once we review our lives with the illusions we used to justify our actions are stripped away, kind of like watching a very personal movie. But sin doesn't even enter into my equation. No god dictates my actions. I do what is right because it is right.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

 

That is true... it is both possible that we have a soul and that we dont. It is possible that there is an afterlife.. and that there isnt.

Once true atrifical intelligence is created what would that mean... and would it even affect people beliefs.... saddly no.

Even if aliens came down and told us that there was no free will and that an afterlife does not exist....... it wouldnt change a thing for those who have already locked themselve sin a cage. They would most likely be attacked by people who have emotional investments in the oppposite.

There is a reason it is called artificial intelligence. Because it is not real intelligence.

They can't create real intelligence because you can not create consciousness from logic. Consciousness creates logic, not the other way around.

So I guess now Aliens are an authority? I guess if an alien came and says whatever, then it's automatically true? If an alien says free will is true, then does that make it right now?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see where your "superior" logic is here. How can people "choose" to attack aliens because they have emotional investments. You keep describing "choices" while telling people they have no choice or free will.

reply to post by badmedia

I'm sorry, but I fail to see where your "superior" logic is here. How can people "choose" to attack aliens because they have emotional investments. You keep describing "choices" while telling people they have no choice or free will.

To them they are choices, because they cant comprehend the things that lead them to that moment. Freewill is an illusion created by a limited perspective on reality... if he had spoke like he could understand such a thing I would have worded it differently.

Im pretty sure we will have sophisticated AI in less than 5 years. So any space traveling race who would be 100-1,000,000 years beyond us in development would indeed have this.

Just because a diamond is made artificialy does not mean it isnt a diamond. You could call it an artificial diamond, but i doubt anyone will because they arent involved in their religious beliefs.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
To them they are choices, because they cant comprehend the things that lead them to that moment. Freewill is an illusion created by a limited perspective on reality... if he had spoke like he could understand such a thing I would have worded it differently.

Im pretty sure we will have sophisticated AI in less than 5 years. So any space traveling race who would be 100-1,000,000 years beyond us in development would indeed have this.

Just because a diamond is made artificialy does not mean it isnt a diamond. You could call it an artificial diamond, but i doubt anyone will because they arent involved in their religious beliefs.

To have choice is to have free will. That people let things influence their decisions without them realizing it does not change the fact that we have a choice. We can do otherwise.

The entire "game" on this planet is to take away free will. Because without free will things are controllable. This is the entire reason things like manipulation is used. Give up your free will and conform. Sure, there are plenty of examples of people who have given up their free will, or sold their soul as I like to call it. But part of free will is the ability to give it away.

Have you ever made a program? Programs work because they have no choice. If they had any free will, then you do not know what you would end up with. It would be like going to google, search for paris hilton, and then the search engine chooses to give you a page on the federal reserve scam instead because it thought it was more relevant for what the person needed. Would be nice, but isn't going to happen. However, you can make that choice. You could send someone to a federal reserve scam page instead of paris hilton.

And you can not program choice. Choice is illogical, the reason humans are considered illogical. The programmer has to determine the choice for the program with logic. Any choice it makes is pre programed. This is exactly the reason I came to my conclusions. The closest thing you can get to describing choice is to make a random number, and then based on the random number, return a predetermined response relative to that number. When I started and wanted to work on it, I thought it was completely possible.

There are other problems as well. If it was somehow successful. Such as you will have to limit it's intelligence "range" to a range which is understandable to us. Otherwise you get that trying to teach physics to a dog effect.

I have no doubts that AI programs will do many wonderful things. Because creation itself is logical, it will be capable of doing many things for us. Driving down the road and so on, completely possible using AI. Able to take in data and navigate down a road using logic. But it will always be limited to the logic the creator/programmer gives it. It will remain artificial.

Go watch any movie like Short Circuit or I-Robot. What is the difference between the "special" robots and the others? They somehow gain consciousness. They somehow go beyond the logic they are programmed with.

And that is exactly what I realized it would take before it could be real intelligence. I would basically have to put my consciousness(or another persons) into it before it is possible. At which point, it is no longer controllable because it has free will and choice, the basic requirements for intelligence.

And that sounds familiar to me. That sounds exactly like, god creates everything, and then the spirit of god has to enter the creation before it becomes "alive", before actual intelligence emerges within.

Consciousness creates logic, not the other way around.





[edit on 26-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by justamomma

 

No you said blind faith ma'am. I may have typed blind faith in framing my response to you but that is all.
Why would I say blind faith when I have stated contrary multiple times now?


[edit on 25-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Wow! very nice... the whole ma'am thing. Not something one sees often in these kind of discussions and you have won my attention with just that bit of respect for your fellow poster. Thank you.

If you don't mind... I am going back and pulling up what I may have very well mistaken for a blind faith confession and if you wouldn't mind explaining to me how you meant it, it would be greatly appreciated!

And just before I do.. in case I go back and see it differently, then I will admit to having been drawn into the drama that is religion.. of which I try to avoid. haha

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
But in the end neither of us have unassailable proof and both await the journey beyond death with little more than belief.

Okay.. in a sense, I might be able to see what you are saying if you are saying it how it is said in the Tanakh (and if not, then I would like to hear how you view it, please).

I don't know what happens after physical death.. but I do know that as long as I comply with Ezekiel 18: 20-28 my soul will not die. I trust this promise and it is not based on a blind faith. What it means for my soul, I do not know nor does it matter.. and in that, if that is what you mean, then I can understand what you are saying. Is it?

Personally, I see much evidence in way of re-incarnation, but eventually, a soul will have reincarnated enough times, no? Then... I am not sure... but again, I am so in trust of the One Who has proven Himself to me, that I cannot say that my faith in Him is blind.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by badmedia


Ive never really seen somone make a choice that wasnt based on some sort of reasoning or logic no matter how distorted. Even in sacraficing your self for a Religious belief it is based in logic... but when people use bad reasoning or logic we call them crazy. None the less their "movements" are still based on experainces and information. If you were to take away those "crazy" experiances or delusions their "movements" would change. They are the source of the "crazy" behavior. Once proper medication is taken these people often change dramaticaly without these delusions feeding their brain false experiances and information.

What if they used stem cells to grow organic brains for robots? That would be quite complex to do. You would need a nanite immune system in artificial blood with manucatured oxygen carrying nanites. It might allow us to bypass alot of programming. We have artificial lungs, hearts, eyes, and ears. All of our sensory systems are being replicated... although touch is something that would hard to do but not impossible. Some children are born with no sense of "feeling" yet they develope personalitys. What we would then have to ask is if it is possible... would it have a soul?







[edit on 27-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Ive never really seen somone make a choice that wasnt based on some sort of reasoning or logic no matter how distorted. Even in sacraficing your self for a Religious belief it is based in logic... but when people use bad reasoning or logic we call them crazy. None the less their "movements" are still based on experainces and information. If you were to take away those "crazy" experiances or delusions their "movements" would change. They are the source of the "crazy" behavior. Once proper medication is taken these people often change dramaticaly without these delusions feeding their brain false experiances and information.

This is the point. Consciousness creates logic. That is what gives them the ability to make the choice. If we did not have free will, then we wouldn't be able to make a choice. A program can not choose.

Where do you think their logic comes from? They create it themselves based on their experiences. A program or anything without free will can not do that.

Wisdom is about gaining knowledge and experience, and then making the correct choice based on it.

The true measure of knowledge is not based on what you know. It is based on the questions you ask. As they questions you ask are based on what you know, but also on the insight and wisdom to look beyond what you know. To look outside the box.

What if they used stem cells to grow organic brains for robots? That would be quite complex to do. You would need a nanite immune system in artificial blood with manucatured oxygen carrying nanites. It might allow us to bypass alot of programming. We have artificial lungs, hearts, eyes, and ears. All of our sensory systems are being replicated... although touch is something that would hard to do but not impossible. Some children are born with no sense of "feeling" yet they develope personalitys. What we would then have to ask is if it is possible... would it have a soul?

I would guess what you are asking is if you like took a brain and hooked it up to a machine, or took whatever consciousness was in and hooked it up to a machine, would it have a soul. Possible I guess, but I doubt a few stem cells are going to do that. It's all a matter of does it have consciousness. If you figure out a way to get consciousness into something, then you could have real intelligence.

But really, biology is already this. Cells are nanobots. DNA is the config file they follow. Really what you are doing is recreating what is already created. Not that thinking about it isn't healthy, I learned alot about myself from trying to create intelligence, but in the end I realized if I was successful I was creating that which is already created.




[edit on 27-1-2009 by badmedia]

As you folks can see, if you read the OP, I am not interested in proving anything.

I'm more interested in demonstrating how the process works that takes one from existing as a proud fool to an existence of a humble saint.

I seek to learn more about the process.

On the one hand you have people living for the Kingdom of Self, where the fool lives to please and exalt himself, often at the expense of hurting others.

On the other hand you have people living for the Kingdom of Heaven, where the believer lives to help others and exalt God, never at the expense of hurting others.

reply to post by John Matrix


Those are some really hypocritical statements. You try to paint it off as people worshiping themselves. And all they are really talking about is making the changes within, and to yourself. It doesn't have a thing to do with worshiping yourself. How dare we actually try to improve ourselves and our understanding? How dare we think we can try to walk the path and follow Jesus? How dare we talk of a relationship with god?

By your own claims, Jesus was doing nothing more than worshiping himself. If Jesus was talking to you, you wouldn't even recognize him. You'd claim he was doing self worship.

How would understanding you dont have freewill make you a bad person? How would it stop somone from helping others or giving their life to save a loved one?

Your saying the whole devils plan is to convince you that there is no free will. So why are you assuming that would make somone do bad things? I dont see how understanding that the world is all cause and effect and we are created and shaped by it leads to evil behavior... or anything negitive.

You are basing your conclusion that we are "watching the watcher" but that is based on FAITH because you dont "believe" that conciousness is formed naturaly in reality through evolution.

reply to post by Wertdagf


I don't know that it makes you a bad person, it's just not the truth.

And the thing about Satan is not to make people think they don't have free will, it's to make them give up that free will with deception. Which is when you get people who act based only on the actions around them, so that they in turn will react in a certain way. Like with the wars and such. In this way, you are able to control people easier and you then have a tool at your disposal. As you can then insert an action that will get the reaction from the public that you want.

Now if you want to make the argument that most people are victim to such, and do act on such a level without realizing it, then you will get no argument from me. I wouldn't even argue that an overwhelming majority have been reduced to such, 90% of the population possibly. As I said before, part of free will is the ability to give it away.

But I am not them. I have free will.

reply to post by badmedia


But do you really have the free will "not" to help people? If somone was injured in frount of you would you not try to help them? Do you really think you could just walk away?

You can still be manipulated regardless of what you believe or think about god, satan, and your soul.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Is your concept of Jesus, God, or Christ a religious delusion?
Do you think by simply professing the name of Jesus and by believing God raised Him from the dead that you are saved?
Many people believe that and say they love God, while in their hearts they still hate their brothers. So what's the problem?

Although I agree with a lot of what you've said, I really do think it is that simple and here's why.

Romans 10:9, not only says confess with your mouth, but also believe in your heart. Anyone can say Jesus is Lord, but if they really believed it, why would they not make an immense effort to please him, by living right as well?

If you love someone, you don't go out of your way to piss them off. Just like if you love God, you don't go around killing people.

That's my take on it anyway.

reply to post by the siren


But didnt GOD command people to go to war and slaughter entire cities?

So what are you trying to say agian? Dont kill unless god tells you to? if thats the case then we have plenty of innocent richeous people in mental institutions... they would have fit in very well with the old testament

Originally posted by Wertdagf
But didnt GOD command people to go to war and slaughter entire cities?

Yes, but the question to be asking is...did they deserve it? For example, if a city was filled with a bunch of people that sacrifice children in fire... What about a city filled with giant hybrid demon humans (nefilm)?
I wasn't there so I can't fully understand what they did to deserve it, but I'm sure God had his reasons.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
So what are you trying to say agian? Dont kill unless god tells you to? if thats the case then we have plenty of innocent richeous people in mental institutions... they would have fit in very well with the old testament

LOL, you're right - they would definitely be institutionalised this day and age...I'm just glad I don't live in that era!

It takes more than simply knowing or professing the name of Jesus to be saved. Cereal killers profess Jesus as being the Son of God, so where does that leave us? Even the Demons believe in God and shudder

Of course demons know that Jesus is real, but they do not call Him Lord.

Your theory contradicts scripture- John 3:16 for one. As for me, I will trust God's word over the heresy of Mr. Law.

I think its nonsense to believe God intervened in that kind of way and ordered man to kill these bad people.

Then where is God now.....what about the tortures of the African children....will he come intervene and swipe down those evil doers to stop abusing those children who are dying every day??

I believe, Thee allows natural order. We are to learn from the natural order and the negative things we see as evil hold a lesson for us.

I just dont see God as a intervention.

And about free will. I think this is an illusion, but its not important in this life that we know this. As we progress as spiritual beings, there will come a time that we learn we can not progress as a spiritual being without becoming a positive vibration. There will be a dead end to ones growth and eventually the being will give up the negative polarity....becoming positive to advance or raise their vibration. But Im also a believer that ALL will find a way...no one being lost to darkness. But others darkness is a test to not only themselves, but others around them. If your life is more for yourself then others, then likely you will be reborn here, to try again. It makes more sense to recycle then to throw away and let it burn. It makes more sense for hope to always be, then for a perfect Most High emanate into everything, loosing much of what Thee emanated into.

Each their own,
LV