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UN May Prosecute Bush, Regardless of US Action

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posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 





Chill man you seem a bit apprehensive..

Actually, I'm fine. Would you like to answer my questions, or is this conversation over?




posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


No I think it's over. You may say you're fine but you accused me of putting words in your mouth(so to speak) and telling you what your beliefs are when I began my first two paragraphs with "I believe".

I thought I was having a conversation, and was communicating clearly. I suppose I was wrong.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 





No I think it's over. You may say you're fine but you accused me of putting words in your mouth(so to speak) and telling you what your beliefs are when I began my first two paragraphs with "I believe".

Then, if you were not talking to me, you should not have clicked on "reply to" within my post. Post reply at the bottom of the page would have been the way to go, since you, by your own admission, were not replying to me. I addressed my comments to you, expecting that you would have the courtesy to answer them, so I could understand where you are coming from. However, I see that you wish not to respond, that's fine. Have a nice evening.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Marmota monax
 


Huh? We WROTE THE UN CHARTER! The US essentially created the UN. How is that un-American?

You must not read history. WW2 was horrible and the world was seeking closure and a way to prevent that level of suffering from ever occurring again. Read some history will ya.


Nice try chief. The US was involved in writing the UN Charter, but that has nothing to do with maintaining the sovereignty of the USA.

Stating "You must not read history" is simply insinuating you think I am stupid while side-stepping the slyness most folks would use.

Now, might I suggest you research the UN a bit, using such search terms as "UN Oil for Food" or "UN and Rape". This would be a good start, but there is much more to learn about the UN from those willing to listen.

For your efforts....



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


I was talking to you. I was expressing my view on the matter isn't that part of a conversation?

Come on now.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Total Reality
I don't like this whole feeling that everyone seems to have that all this is in the past and that we should forget about it and move on. These are crimes against humanity. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


Crimes against humanity? Water-boarding?
sigh...
The only "crime against humanity" would be doing nothing to extract information out of certain individuals (terrorists) which could save the lives of innocent civilians.

Do you honestly believe that the comfort of a terrorist is more important than the safety of a civilian?

Why do people fall for such crap...



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 

projectvxn --

Couldn't help but notice your link concerning freedom.

So, you are all about freedom but you are OK with the UN practicing law in the USA? Please explain.

Also, the link to your portfolio is down.

The link to "Art and Poetry" appears to be basic graphic work. Maybe the other content is down too.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by Keyhole
 



But no one even mentioned it when it happened. No one asked, "Hey, are the North Koreans/North Vietnamese/Saddam gonna get punished for what they did?" regardless if those countries gave the leaders up.

You hope we are above that? I always wonder why the US is always held accountable for following the rules, crossing every "T" and dotting every "i", yet other countries aren't.




[edit on 24-1-2009 by jerico65]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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Funny how all through his Presidency people claimed he was a puppet, that he had an ear piece dictating what he was to say in public, that he had no real power and the decisions he made were not his own, but it seems the world is still looking to punish just one man for the discretions of many. Scape Goat?



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 11:23 PM
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Whoa! This thread has gone all over the place!

My two cents... because I can't resist.

We're in a hell of a pickle here. And it couldn't have worked out better for Mr. Bush if he had planned it this way!

First off, whether the international community likes it or not, the final standing of the United States is simple; we can NOT allow American citizens who serve as the duly-elected Commander in Chief to be tried in international court for NUMEROUS REASONS.

1 - To expose a citizen to the agendas of the international community, all of whom have no clear commitment to what our Constitution recognizes as justice. There is no guarantee of a 'fair' trial. While this or that particular person may seem worthy of the oversight, we cannot afford to provide that vulnerability to future (or standing) Presidents because it equates to diminishing his (or her, probably someday) human rights ... you know..., the Constitutional kind.

2 - As an ostensibly legally chosen representative of the United States, if he is guilty - WE ARE GUILTY. There is no escaping the logic. We ALLOWED this to happen. Our representatives sat on their hands and repeated the obligatory 'patriotic' pablum, which most of us were only too willing to accept. But don't take that as an assault on one's sense of right and wrong; because many of those who accepted it were simply following the daily programming.

3 - If ANY prosecution is to happen, it must be by consent of the American people, exercised in American courts. But that is a BIG 'If".

4 - The entire premise is focused on the outrageous use of psychological and physical abuse inflicted upon a human being. My friends, the only real outrage here is that this time WE KNOW ABOUT IT. Can you really bring yourself to believe this isn't a standard practice? This has been going on in the circles of our collective 'governments' for DECADES if not CENTURIES. Shall we examine ANY past war in which war crimes were not committed?

There no excuse for the shame it casts upon humanity as it passes into the 21st Century; but it does bring the question of timing into the matter. This nation's a mess. This thread could lead to the American people realizing just who has been doing what to whom, and to what end, within our halls of power. I'm afraid such revelations must be kept within the confines of the American legal system or we could end up a 'region' on the UN's map of 'Countries to F' with.'

The UN is NOT OUR ALLY. Never forget that. Frankly, with the institution of such obtusely megalomaniacal agencies as the World Bank, the IMF, the infamous Codex Alimentaria, and endless others; I find myself amazed that we tolerate their presence within our borders.

Perhaps I said too much...,


[edit on 24-1-2009 by Maxmars]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


so, are you then just resigned to accepting torture being authorized by the highest element(s) of your government?
are you really saying we should all just sit back and say "oh well"?

I agree with you about all the faults of the U.N.; however, I don't think that it is a given that a "world court" would necessarily be unjust.

Really, you guys (Americans), should just go ahead and take care of this business yourselves and then the issue of others passing judgment would be moot.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by Total Reality
reply to post by nyk537
 


Not necessarily. Bush passed many laws while he was in office ...


OK. I have to stop you here. In the U.S., the president can't pass any laws - Congress does and the president signs them or vetoes them as he chooses. Also keep in mind that congress has been controlled by the democrats since 2004. This post shows your gross lack of understanding of how the U.S. government works and therefor casts the rest of your posts into doubt.

And like someone else pointed out - Bush was just a puppet, right?


[edit on 1/24/2009 by centurion1211]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by Maxmars
 


so, are you then just resigned to accepting torture being authorized by the highest element(s) of your government?
are you really saying we should all just sit back and say "oh well"?

I agree with you about all the faults of the U.N.; however, I don't think that it is a given that a "world court" would necessarily be unjust.

Really, you guys (Americans), should just go ahead and take care of this business yourselves and then the issue of others passing judgment would be moot.


Oh no. Not at all.

What I am accepting is the right and obligation of the United States proper to execute the ministerial duty of discovery, inquest, formulation of charges, trial, and sentencing. This would be expected of any nation, and we (as in America) are neither better nor worse than any other nation which has managed to escape international inquiry when their leaders get 'nasty' with people they believe to be 'the enemy.'

Frankly, I would assume the real question which should be voted upon is the mechanistic classification of all abducted foreigners as 'enemy combatants'. Therein lies the first deadly blow to their human/civil rights; I expect that is why the public is made to focus on what happened to the abductees after they were whisked away to a place outside U.S. Department of Justice jurisdiction. But the truth is, the decision to do so is where the real atrocity occurred.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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Bush had a shoe thrown at him.. Thats about all the justice that man will ever see for the rest of his life.

As many of us know.. ITs not just All Bush's fault here.. Bush was a puppet of an oligarchy. And if they wanted to take down Bush that is not fair. Why push for the arrest of a puppet?

If they want to do any real good, they have to take down the whole damn system.. And do you honestly think they can even do that?

No way in hell can they take the system down. They are owned by this system.. And they are above the law.

There will be no justice.. As justice is owned and ruled by criminals..

So you see.. Bush can not be arrested, nor will he be.

There are far to many right wing gatekeepers to allow this to happen.

At the base roots.. This is just another left winged attack from left wing gatekeepers who in essence work on the same side.

While most of you think the left and right fight eachother.. its all an act.
An illusion to keep up the status quo.

Bush was a puppet.. And while I may not be a fan of his.. I can still say. He didn't do this all by himself.. He was there to sign the papers..
Thats about it.. So why bust down Bush?

Bust down those who controled him..
But these are the same folks who control the left.. So you don't win.
And there is no justice.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


But these are the same folks who control the left.. So you don't win.
And there is no justice.

That is the heart of the discussion here. A look at world history over the last century or even more would certainly lead to the conclusion you stated. Understood.
But I am not really sure about Obama. He may, or may not, be just another puppet. What if he was just playing the game to get to a point where he might actually have enough power to do something?
Then again, the presidency probably does not come with enough power to really do anything major; except facilitate what the PTB in the background want.

I can't really explain why, but a part of me really wants to believe that he has his own hidden agenda, and its not what the PTB were expecting.
Again, time will tell.
Sometimes I am a hopeless optimist, but then I also believe that optimism itself is a powerful thing.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by wayno
I can't really explain why, but a part of me really wants to believe that he has his own hidden agenda, and its not what the PTB were expecting.
Again, time will tell.
Sometimes I am a hopeless optimist, but then I also believe that optimism itself is a powerful thing.


You and me both! All the same tell-tale channels of communication are there, indicating a possibility that nothing has changed at all. The political parties are still rife with disingenuous personalities and rhetoric.

Yet for some nearly unidentifiable reason, I remain hopeful that President Obama can live up to our expectations of a 'good' President. But I am still very pessimistic about the House, Senate, and Judiciary..., who seem to remain entrenched in ideological and elitist stupidity.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

Crimes against humanity? Water-boarding?
sigh...
The only "crime against humanity" would be doing nothing to extract information out of certain individuals (terrorists) which could save the lives of innocent civilians.

Do you honestly believe that the comfort of a terrorist is more important than the safety of a civilian?

Why do people fall for such crap...


Yes I think that torture is a crime against humanity and torturing someone does not yield useful information. Some of the prisoners weren't even connected to any sort of terrorist organization. You should really look for the actual photos of American marines torturing these prisoners, not just the ones that were shown on the news. They're heartbreaking.

I don't think they should be comfortable but I also have morals and think that every country should uphold the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, especially my country.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 


Exactly, Bush is just a puppet. But there's no way of denying that his administration did not do business according to the laws in the Constitution, like spying on citizens illegally or holding someone indefinitely without a fair trial or even any proof that they did anything wrong.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Not the United Nation, the Tigers of the European continent, nor the United States Congress going to charge a former President with such petty crap.

One would think that with all the economic troubles world-wide, the impending threats of war with India/Pakistan, North Korea/South Korea, Israel/Syria/Iran, the ongoing turmoil in Africa, and the threat to national identity in Middle Europe, that there are other things a bit more pressing.

This is bogus.

You'll note that the most ferocious of the political animals, all have no teeth.

Bush is gone. It's over.

And if anyone thinks that torture is going to stop, then you've got another think coming.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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the un will never prosecute bush its an organization run by the people in power behind the scenes which the bush family are very much a part of



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