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The Dangerous Mythology Of American Hope

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posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Electro38
Most non-Americans can't understand the concept of hope and it's amazing to see all of these anti-American people here get so jealous of American hope.

It was America's capacity for hope that:

1. Created a great free country (USA)
2. Got us through a Great Depression
3. Helped us defeat tyranny spreading in Europe
4. Win WWI
5. Win WWII
6. Help free countless people from oppression through out the world.
7. etc.

You should watch and learn from the USA and take the same critical look at your own Countries gov's.




I disagree...it wasn't the idea of HOPE....but ACTION, TENACITY, AND SELF BELIEF that got us through what you describe.

Hope is like wishing (song: wishin' and hopin', thinkin' and dreamin'.....) it is ACTION AND SELF RELIANCE that wins in the end.

~Holly




posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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I get the feeling that most people replying to this thread who think that hope is futile are very young people. This is not a criticism, just an assumption.

How do you get out of bed every morning without hope?

How do you pursue anything without hope? You're not immune to relying on hope no matter how detached or logical thinking you think you are. It's ridiculous to suggest you don't, and to suggest the people in your countries and your gov's don't rely on hope every day.

Completely ridiculous!

Hope is essential, and whether the naysayers realize it or not they too rely on hope on a daily basis.

The fact that the OP associated hope with "Americans" is the only reason why we're finding so much negativity in this thread.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by Holly N.R.A.
 


Those things you listed have to start with hope. Wouldn't you say that before you act there must be some level of hope?

How can you start to act on those things you listed, "ACTION", "tenacity", etc. if you didn't first have hope? Come on now, we're all coming up with our own definitions of "hope".


[edit on 23-1-2009 by Electro38]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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Yes, governments rely on hope everyday. They hope that we continue to be the brainwashed empty headed little sheep that we truly are so they can continue to, euphemistically of course, rape us. (At least I hope its a euphemism, if that was reality I WOULD move to a foreign country.)
Hope without corresponding action IS dangerous, as it allows you to turn off your logical centers in your brain and believe the garbage spewed forth from the modern day false prophets we call politicians.
True, hope does drive us, but so should duty and honor and dignity. I claim these as my own. Like the new (rude but funny) saying goes; I'll take my God, guns and religion, you can keep your change.


[edit on 23-1-2009 by SpecAgentDW]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by SpecAgentDW
Yes, governments rely on hope everyday. They hope that we continue to be the brainwashed empty headed little sheep that we truly are so they can continue to, euphemistically of course, rape us. (At least I hope its a euphemism, if that was reality I WOULD move to a foreign country.)
Hope without corresponding action IS dangerous, as it allows you to turn off your logical centers in your brain and believe the garbage spewed forth from the modern day false prophets we call politicians.
True, hope does drive us, but so should duty and honor and dignity. I claim these as my own. Like the new (rude but funny) saying goes; I'll take my God, guns and religion, you can keep your change.


[edit on 23-1-2009 by SpecAgentDW]


Of course, we're talking about hope which would motivate change and action.

Hope is the essential element preceding anything worth acting on.

I'm not going to comment on your brainwashing statement, except to say that if a gov. wants to destroy its people it would then destroy itself. Most people who are "brainwashed" so easily allow themselves to be, in my opinion.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Electro38]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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Yes, we have allowed ourselves to become brainwashed. Quite my point, brainwashed into believing that help and salvation will come from an outside source and that a miracle will lift us up back towards the light of prosperity. I guess it should be refined to read 'illogical hope' or 'irrational hope'. The only hope I have is that my efforts will bear fruit. I don't look for handouts as so many others do. And lets be frank, that's why Obama and his 'hope' got elected in the first place. It's the 'hope' that somehow we can reap great rewards without any real investment of time and labor. That's not 'hope' as I see it. That's the government purchasing our very souls. Remember, no investment is made unless a corresponding return is expected. Just follow the logic and realize that all of this 'hope' is designed to set us up for a repayment on our part in the near future. That payment, may be too terrible to voice outright as of yet. But the bill will, eventually, come due.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by walterbarrett
I totally agree. A lot of the people I know kept gushing that this was such a symbolic moment in our nations history and they felt good to be Americans for the first time in their life (I'm in my early 20's so history hasn't been so awesome).
I feel just about the same as I did a year ago as far as my opinions on the world. What I mean is I've given up on anything that has been packaged up however the government wants. If you want transparancy in politics start a country with one citizen - yourself.



These people felt good to be americans for the first time in their lives?

Pretty sad ass people I might add.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by SpecAgentDW
Yes, we have allowed ourselves to become brainwashed. Quite my point, brainwashed into believing that help and salvation will come from an outside source and that a miracle will lift us up back towards the light of prosperity. I guess it should be refined to read 'illogical hope' or 'irrational hope'. The only hope I have is that my efforts will bear fruit. I don't look for handouts as so many others do. And lets be frank, that's why Obama and his 'hope' got elected in the first place. It's the 'hope' that somehow we can reap great rewards without any real investment of time and labor. That's not 'hope' as I see it. That's the government purchasing our very souls. Remember, no investment is made unless a corresponding return is expected. Just follow the logic and realize that all of this 'hope' is designed to set us up for a repayment on our part in the near future. That payment, may be too terrible to voice outright as of yet. But the bill will, eventually, come due.


Very well said, not that I agree totally, but well said.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Electro38
reply to post by Holly N.R.A.
 


Those things you listed have to start with hope. Wouldn't you say that before you act there must be some level of hope?

How can you start to act on those things you listed, "ACTION", "tenacity", etc. if you didn't first have hope? Come on now, we're all coming up with our own definitions of "hope".


[edit on 23-1-2009 by Electro38]


To me....belief in one's self, knowing that what you set out to accomplish will be done, has nothing to do with "hope". It has to do with self reliance...to "hope" you will accomplish what you set out to do, you have already undermined what you are manifesting....the simple act of "knowing you will do it" what ever it is you are doing is what gets things done.

of course, that is just one person's opinion....and btw, for the person that thinks that most of us replying are quite young...trust me, I've been thru the "hope" phase of this life...things happen by doing, and if it doesn't work the first time you keep on tryin' until it does work.


~Holly



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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Without hope, all there is is fear and delusion.

Yeah Obama is a politician, that does not automatically make him "the same"

According to most people at ATS there is nothing but doom and gloom in our future. Conspiracies, death, starvation, hatred, and all those other creepy things that scare you in the dark.

David Icke and his Reptoids, Don Croft and his Holy Hand Grenades, and let's not forget Planet X, and all those railroad cars full of shackles for when they finally come and take your guns away. Not going to happen.

We have problems like greed, hatred, and religious zealotry.
Nobody wants to take your guns away. The Reptile agenda exists in the minds of morons like David Icke, and planet X is not coming in 2012. Jesus isn't coming either.

Obama can fail, he's human but he's the best HOPE we have for a free America.

But just imagine for a minute that he actually pulls off half of what he has promised. If that happens, it will change the world for the better, specially the U.S.

Want an example? Russia is a pessimistic nation, they have been screwed for a thousand years. Why? because they don't believe anything good can happen.

I HOPE y'all the best.

Personally, I'm going to laugh all the way to 2013.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:26 PM
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Thank you for your post MOS. However I must agree with the other poster who accused you of masquerading.

Philosophically speaking what are your words but a "hope" you will be understood. Linguistics, is it possible to even capture truth with words? How can any symbol be true? Think about that one for a minute.

Let's look at the Enlightenment.

From Wiki:


Modern liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment and rejects many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, established religion, and economic protectionism.[9][10][11] Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[12]

The first liberal state was the United States of America[13], founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[14] This said, much of early liberal thought originated in and influenced the politics of The Netherlands, the United Kingdom and France.


So do you believe in Progress of Man, the Age of Reason? Or is all lost and hopeless "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust" ? "Twilight of the Idols"


Yet other leading intellectuals, such as Noam Chomsky, see a natural evolution, using the term loosely, from early Enlightenment thinking to other forms of social analysis, specifically from The Enlightenment to liberalism, anarchism and socialism. The relationship between these different schools of thought, Chomsky and others argue, can be seen in the works of von Humboldt, Kropotkin, Bakunin and Marx, among others.


There are so many people here on ATS that believe that because one man is criminal ALL men are criminals. If one man is a hypocrite everybody is a phony (with the exception of themselves usually). Myself I revel in the truth even if that truth is unpopular or conspiratorial. I also revere the rule of law. Does that mean I think there are no liars or criminals. Far from it!

Frankly I think many posters on ATS are frustrated because they don't have a plan of action to improve their condition.

I remember my grandfather telling me about being sent into the dangerous coal mines at the tender age of 9 sent a mile down into the black. He lived in a company house and his parents shopped at the company store. All of his kids are college educated and lead very comfortable upper middle class lives. It happened in America under the thumb of the robber barons and during the Great Depression. He had hope for something better and it happened for him. He died of black lung disease but was happy. Funny though after the 29 crash he never put another dollar into any bank. He was a conspiracy theorist as well!



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


I, like you, am 50+. I have been around the block a few times. I have lived my life, have given love and have been loved back, i`ve made mistakes and have also been successful in many things. But I believe the greatest lesson I have learned, was the fact, that those in power can do many things to keep us at bay. They can make us fear that bad things may happen to us, or, they can give you hope that good things may happen to us. Both of which they can take away from us any time they please. I do not use either, because I know we can be hurt by both. Fear can drive one to do things they would not do any other time and can get hurt doing so, and it`s only if your wise, can fear be used to better yourself. Hope can be put high on a pedestal, and that problem is, pedestals can be knocked over letting hope crash to the ground.

That is why I use knowing. You can fear that change will not happen, or even fear change will harm you, and you can even hope for change. But I believe the greatest thing one can do is know that change WILL happen. I would much rather know that change will take place.....President or no President, Government or no Government, NWO or no NWO.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:51 PM
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Fear and Hope are not manipulators..

They can be used for that because they are both motivators.

I use hope all the time to keep me going.

When I had nothing and was homeless, it was only hope that motivated me to keep on going.

Today I own my own business, employ 14 people, and business is good during good times and even better right now. I owe it all to hope. I would never of had the ability to sustain the level of success I have achieved without hope.

What you are missing is that Hope is the symptom, not the cause. The fact that we deify hope as humans speaks to the fact that we all feel a very real sense of uncertainty, and that is our way to "keep moving forward".

When times are great, it's different... we begin to fear, that we might lose something.

These are the anima and animus of society. Each have their natural progression as we zig and zag across the landscape of human existence.

The only true conspiracy is that of the ego as it plays it's psychological games inside us all in its vain attempt to ensure survival.

Mister.Old.School.... the Matrix has you.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Electro38
 


Hope is taking power away from yourself and relying on others IMO.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by Electro38
 


Hope is taking power away from yourself and relying on others IMO.



Really? What about Hope in yourself?

I have tons of hope in myself.

I don't have much hope in others though.

I think you didn't check your abstract generalization prior to posting.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by kinda kurious
your intimate understanding of the human psyche seems to fall short.

My understanding that the "average" person is easily manipulated through compelling imagery and strong emotional messaging? Please elucidate as to how I fell short in such a base comprehension.


It is my belief that, as your basic premise, you underestimated the magnitude of the innate human spirit which encompasses courage inspired by hope.

It is my feeling that, as humans, hope can conquer fear rather than vice versa.

Quitting an addictive bad habit, standing up to a bully, making a tough personal decision to leave an abusive spouse or boss. 3 quick examples of hope trumping fear.

Your observations of our current society, applauded by some, strike me as dismal and
depressing. I refuse to succumb to your negative way of thinking.

Regarding my failure to research your "body of work" only reinforces my belief of your lofty self-perception.

After all, this is predominantly a UFO & Conspiracy site. If I wanted "deep", I'd be hanging out in a SCUBA forum.

Perhaps ignorance IS bliss. In that case, I'm tickled pink. But thanks for your warnings.

regards....KK

[edit on 23-1-2009 by kinda kurious]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by mister.old.school
The past decades have shown that real American Hope is a myth.


American 'hope' isn't a myth. In fact, notwithstanding the consistent abuse American hope has suffered, it nonetheless continues to largely prevail.


Originally posted by mister.old.school
What nefarious manipulations may now be accomplished under the guise of hope that could not happen under the specter of fear?


I may be splitting hairs, but same point here. There is no 'guise' of hope, only the potential for abuse of hope.

And I also do not believe there is a meaningful distinction between manipulation achieved through hope or manipulation achieved through fear. Both approaches accomplish the same end-- manipulation.

But I will agree with what I assume to be your broader point.

Unrestrained, our hope places us in great peril.

Without vigilance and sober confrontation of the challenges we face as a nation, we could find ourselves repeating many of the mistakes experienced over the last eight years.

If one President can abuse the nation's trust, so can another.


And even if the best of intentions are involved, we all know where those can occasionally lead.

I'd kind of like to get this time around right.... Wouldn't all of you?


[edit on 23-1-2009 by loam]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


That is the problem with humanity. We hope only for oneself, not for all. We need to start understanding, this is not about me alone, or you alone, it`s about everyone in this world. It`s not about us holding onto hope for the United States, or those in Europe holding onto hope for Europe. We need to start looking out for each other, all over this world, and stop thinking about ourselves or just OUR country.

If your going to hold onto hope for yourself, spread that hope worldwide, we all need it. Take self out of the equation and place all there instead.



[edit on 23-1-2009 by FiatLux]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:30 PM
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If we are busy deciphering what IS - at this moment -
we are not as inclined to hop back and forth between hope and fear.
We are more settled in the moment and experiencing fully
whatever the moment is offering.
In this state there is no need for hope or fear.
Just hanging out - accepting and being.


[edit on 23-1-2009 by spinkyboo]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by loam
I may be splitting hairs, but same point here. There is no 'guise' of hope, only the potential for abuse of hope.

I respectfully disagree.

Hope, does "spring eternal" as a genuine attribute of the human spirit.

Hope, can inspire an ordinarily mundane person to extraordinary effort.

Hope, will cause us to be patient in our anticipation for what we yearn.

These "flavors" of genuine hope are not the subject of my observations. Instead, it is the very guise of hope that has been manufactured.

As a child, you placed your genuine hope that Santa Clause would satisfy your wishes each year. For the most part, your wishes were granted and your hopes fulfilled depending on the resources of your loved ones. But soon you learned your hopes were misplaced, your emotions (and behavior?) manipulated under the guise of hope in a person that did not really exist.

The "Santa Clause hope" was a myth. And similarly, the new "American Hope" is also a myth.

The fear of the past years was manufactured.

The hope is manufactured as we were becoming fatigued of the fear, and new-found hope after years of fear is a very powerful tool.



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