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Complete Chaos in Iraq

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posted on Apr, 11 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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Things in Iraq are getting completely out of hand. The U.S. military is losing control. The IGC is falling apart. With the recent escalation and kidnappings, look for coalition partners to cut and run. It's only a matter of time 'till the operation becomes unsustainable.

Those administration/Pentagon officials responsible for opening this pandoras box should be hauled before the ICC and charged with war crimes. Or better yet, thrown off a helicopter onto the streets of Fallujah.



US-Appointed Iraqi Government Close to Collapse?

by Juan Cole
AP reported that the US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council (IGC) issued a demand early on Saturday that the US cease its military action against Fallujah and stop employing "collective punishment."
Not only has what many Iraqis call "the puppet council" taken a stand against Bush administration tactics in Iraq, but individual members are peeling off. Shiite Marsh Arab leader Abdul Karim al-Muhammadawi suspended his membership in the council on Friday. A Sunni member, Ghazi al-Yawir, has threatened to resign if a negotiated settlement of the Fallujah conflict cannot be found. Old-time Sunni nationalist leader Adnan Pachachi thundered on al-Arabiya televsion, "It was not right to punish all the people of Fallujah, and we consider these operations by the Americans unacceptable and illegal." For him to go on an Arab satellite station much hated by Donald Rumsfeld and denounce the very people who appointed him to the IGC is a clear act of defiance. There are rumors that many of the 25 Governing Council members have fled abroad, fearful of assassination because of their association with the Americans. The ones who are left appear on the verge of resigning.
www.antiwar.com...

Aljazeera airs tape of dead 'CIA men'


Sunday 11 April 2004, 20:46 Makka Time, 17:46 GMT


One of the dead bodies shown in the tape




Aljazeera TV has aired a video tape showing two dead bodies, with the voiceover claiming they were that of CIA men killed in Falluja.


The tape, aired on Sunday, showed marks of gunshots on the bodies and a number of Iraqis surrounding them. It also showed a damaged car, which the narrator claimed belonged to the dead men.
english.aljazeera.net... BA1FDC9F1C.htm



[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]




posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 09:04 AM
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It's like I've been saying all along. We can't solve their problems. They have to do it themselves. In trying, we only make them more pissed off at us.



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 09:10 AM
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I don't think this administration is ever going to own up to the fact that they've truly screwed the pooch, a'la Lyndon Johnson. It doesn't matter how many bodies they throw into the meatgrinder - they'll just keep digging us in deeper. It's outrageous. And the more heavy-handed they get - the more disasterous it will get. It kills me for all the folks out there who have family members in Iraq or on their way. My little brother might be next. (He's in the Guard) He says it could be any day.


Here's a good editorial by William Rivers Pitt

The man who had that statue of himself erected was a bastard, a wretch, a blight on the skin of this world. Was he worth the loss of these American soldiers, and the others who have died in April but whose names have not yet been released by Central Command? Was he worth the 667 American soldiers who have died in Iraq? Was he worth the 18,000 American soldiers who have been medically evacuated from Iraq, many for wounds so grievous that their lives will never be the same? Was he worth the lives of more than ten thousand Iraqi civilians? Was he worth the hundreds of billions of dollars we spent to remove him?

Was he worth even one grieving mother, father, wife, husband, brother, sister, son, or daughter?

www.truthout.org...



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Satyr
It's like I've been saying all along. We can't solve their problems. They have to do it themselves. In trying, we only make them more pissed off at us.


How are they supposed to solve it themselves? They have had little experience in dealing with a democratic system of government. This is something that they have never had before, why is everyone suprised that they are having problems?

We had problems in America when we set up our democratic system but things got better over time, just like they will in Iraq.


TPL

posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 09:40 AM
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But in America a system that only needed a few tweaks to make it the democracy of today was put in place by us Brits.

In Iraq most of the system was either non existant or destroyed in the war. Everythings being built from the ground up.



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by TPL
But in America a system that only needed a few tweaks to make it the democracy of today was put in place by us Brits.

In Iraq most of the system was either non existant or destroyed in the war. Everythings being built from the ground up.


No, our system was different from yours in many ways. We looked to you for a framework of a government. We took what you had and made it better.



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by Satyr
It's like I've been saying all along. We can't solve their problems. They have to do it themselves. In trying, we only make them more pissed off at us.


How are they supposed to solve it themselves? They have had little experience in dealing with a democratic system of government. This is something that they have never had before, why is everyone suprised that they are having problems?

We had problems in America when we set up our democratic system but things got better over time, just like they will in Iraq.

You don't remember our history? How did we solve our problems with England? We got to a point where we just decided we weren't going to take it anymore, then we fought the power and made our own system. It doesn't have to be democratic. It just has to be their own system. No one can do that for them, since they have to be the ones who decide what's acceptable for them.

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by Satyr]



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 10:14 AM
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The biggest problem with our Iraq dealings is that so many people seem to forget - or just no understand - that Iraqis have never known Democracy - especially not in the sense that we've known it. It's completely alien to them.

The vast majority of them are glad to be free of Saddam, but who says they want our form of governance? To assume such only bolsters Iraqis contempt for our way of thinking. We need to do more to understand the way they see it working.
Pushing our western-centric "values" off on them isn't getting us anywhere.

The only reason the Shi'ites were for Democracy (i.e. one man one vote) is because they knew they'd clean house and take charge, after decades of Sunni control.



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 10:41 AM
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The way our military has handled the situation isn't helping matters. The heavy-handed, indiscriminate use of force is only pushing average Iraqis over the edge. Now British commanders are speaking out against US handling of the situation.

US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)


Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.

One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".
www.telegraph.co.uk... ml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 11:41 AM
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The whole thing is falling apart and I fear there is going to be no way out for our troops. The Sunnis and Shias have banded together in common cause, members of the IGC are quitting and/or fleeing the country for their lives, Bremer can't go anywhere out of fear they'll murder him, towns are falling to Iraqi control... It's like I've said before.. it's only just begun. Here's some analysis:

One, Two, Many Messes

by Jim Lobe
While the United States does not look quite yet like the "pitiful, helpless giant" that tortured Richard Nixon's imagination during the Vietnam War, the past week's events seem to have moved it very much in that direction.
www.antiwar.com...



How GI bullies are making enemies of their Iraqi friends

April 12, 2004

It should have been a weekend of celebration - the first anniversary of the toppling of Saddam Hussein and the first chance in decades for millions of Iraqi Shiites to join the Arbi'een pilgrimage to the southern shrine city of Kerbala - their holiest day which had been outlawed by Saddam.

Instead, the country is in convulsions and it seems the Americans have already lost the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds.
www.smh.com.au...




Ex-British foreign secretaries Cook, Hurd blast US policy in Iraq

LONDON : Former British foreign secretaries Douglas Hurd and Robin Cook sharply criticised Washington's policy in Iraq, saying the United States was guilty of "overkill" and could not impose democracy in the war-shattered country through the use of force.
www.channelnewsasia.com...



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
The way our military has handled the situation isn't helping matters. The heavy-handed, indiscriminate use of force is only pushing average Iraqis over the edge. Now British commanders are speaking out against US handling of the situation.

US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)


Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.

One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".
www.telegraph.co.uk... ml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/


As unfortunate as it is that American soldiers view Iraqis as sub-humans, the rest of the article does have a grain of truth.

America's biggest problem has been that it's always incorporated politics into EVERYTHING. What America is learning the hard way in Iraq is that war is war. War is not justifiable, it's a part of human nature and it just is. America's state of mind is that as long as we send soldiers in looking like guardian angels of peace and freedom, rather than warriors, everything will be okay. However, Iraqis are as smart as Americans. They know what soldiers are, and they know they are not "keepers of the peace." Yet the American government always tries to make it look rosy instead of realizing that we are still at war and we can't act "soft." That's how you lose wars, by being soft. America has to get rid of the "uphold liberty" responsibility (which is bogus anyway) and has to bring order to chaos by any means necessary. If that means using overwhelming firepower, then by all means yes. It's war and you have to defeat the enemy, even though it'll make you look like conquerors. War is war and as Sun Tzu said, "Always greet your enemy with the tip of your sword."

P.S. America is also learning COMBAT SOLDIERS are not guardian angels the hard way.

[Edited on 12-4-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Apr, 12 2004 @ 05:22 PM
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I think what the US will achieve once the troops are withdrawn will not be a change towards a democratic and prosperous Iraq but to a chaotic state were religious fanatics and terrorist groups will dictate.
If anyone imagined that Iraq (after less than 2 years since Saddam) left on its own will be able to function as a democracy, they must be completely ignorant!!
See how hard and slow changes happen in the Eastern Europe, where many countries prior to WWII had democratic traditions and imagine how it must be for Iraq, surrounded by states with no such aims, divided between ethnic groups, etc.
Once US withdraws (and they will have to sooner or later) there will be no credible alternative power. Iraq will be easy prey for Osama bin Laden followers, etc. (In fact it already is!)
So what did did the US achieve?

[Edited on 12-4-2004 by harap.alb]

[Edited on 12-4-2004 by harap.alb]



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