Dutch court orders anti-Islamic lawmaker Geert Wilders prosecuted on hate speech charge

As a person who is both a minority and lives in the Netherlands, it startles me how people are quick to jump on the "it's a dark day for freedom of speech" bandwagon without knowing the full story and extent of this mans actions. What you need to remember is that you DON'T know the dangerous extent to which this guy condemns ALL muslims (I am not a muslim, christian, jew, etc - I am an atheist btw). He uses text book propaganda and an assault of fear on the public here and is fanning the flames of racial tension.

This guy has taken his point of view TOO FAR, he is literally brain washing people to such an extent that he is easily comparable to people like Hitler who over time managed to rally public support AGAINST the jews in Nazi Germany.

In the Netherlands (outside of Amsterdam) and in the smaller towns and cities dotted around the country there is a growing racial tension against Moroccans and other foreigners. I am British and of mixed race, and I can tell you as a fact and by experience that this place and a lot of the people here can be very racist. The thing that worries me about the Netherlands is people discriminate and carry out other kinds of racism like it's the norm.

There are a lot of intelligent dutch people that have seen through Mr. Wilders bull# cause, and have grown weary of the man fanning the flames of social divide.

So my main point is: don't just read one article about this and claim it's an attack against freedom of speech, you need to know the entire context and environment. This guy has been allowed to say what he wants and do what he wants but there has to be a limit. A lot of people have had enough of this character and are glad to see an end to his non-constructive politics.

It has come to my attention that most of the people in this thread are not clued up on the nature of this guys arguments and talking points. He is brainwashing people into thinking that non-extremist Muslims pose a threat to society. He is a fear monger and this decision couldn't have come sooner in my humble opinion.

I am a British expatriate living in Holland and I have grown so tired of this guys # that I think it's great he's been banned. He DOES pose a very REAL security threat because what he is inciting is action against ALL Muslims. We must consider that he is against the freedom of religion therefore why should we grant him such rights like freedom of speech when he cannot accept the basic rights of others. I am an atheist and I despise religion, but there are ways to get your point across.. and well, there are ways to say things like:

"Take a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches!"..- Geert Wilders.

When you preach this to Dutch born Muslims, I am sure you can only further breed radical view points. The interesting thing is, I haven't noticed a single mosque in Holland, there are none where I live or the places I visit in Amsterdam, Amersfoort, Arnhem and other places I visit on a regular! (Maybe I Just overlooked them, but they certainly aren't prominent. I despise religion but you won't see me taking the bible for instance and twisting it's words to portray ALL Christians as blood thirsty tyrants, because that simply isn't true. Relgion causes war and other social problems, however Geert will have you believe that you have to sleep with one eye open as the bad Muslim man will climb through your window at night and behead you. It's a load of bull.

Please don't comment based on the one article your reading, listen to the guys political rhetoric, it is dangerous and comparable to the way Hitler rallied support against the Jews in Nazi Germany.

He twists and bends the words in the Quaran to paint a picture of Muslims that is unfair and can be considered as propaganda! This can only endanger the Muslim community and hinder integration into the Dutch social culture.

Don't sympathise for this tyrant as he is just as intolerant against other peoples basic human rights.

Wilders is a racist bigot and a hypocrite to his cause.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by IceColdPro]

Originally posted by Goathief
Well said bodrul.

Anyway, my take on this is that the man is a nasty piece of work and needs to be reigned in one way or another - if that means bringing him up on a hate speech charge then good. I don't see the objectors defending the rights of extreme Muslim clerics being prosecuted under the same laws. Seems to me that the Islamophobes want to have their cake and eat it too.

Proper little thought policeman aren't we

Originally posted by IceColdPro
It has come to my attention that most of the people in this thread are not clued up on the nature of this guys arguments and talking points. He is brainwashing people into thinking that non-extremist Muslims pose a threat to society. He is a fear monger and this decision couldn't have come sooner in my humble opinion.

Thanks for your comments.
As far as i can see the man has the right to voice his opinions, specialy in a political debate.
Why can he not voice his opinion that Muslims pose a threat to society ?
If thats what he thinks than so be it, he is not asking us to kill them.

To make it clear again, i dont like any thing the man has to say about this subject but he has the right to do so as long as he doenst call for the murder of these people.

What if we would lock up anybody that doesnt agree with the "standard" even you could be jailed for frear mongering against wilders.
It is a dangerous road to extremism i believe.

I am a British expatriate living in Holland and I have grown so tired of this guys # that I think it's great he's been banned. He DOES pose a very REAL security threat because what he is inciting is action against ALL Muslims. We must consider that he is against the freedom of religion therefore why should we grant him such rights like freedom of speech when he cannot accept the basic rights of others. I am an atheist and I despise religion, but there are ways to get your point across.. and well, there are ways to say things like:

As far as i know he doesnt speak against "ALL" muslims, he is realy against the koran and extremism among muslims.

"Take a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches!"..- Geert Wilders.

Well i dont see what is illegal about these opinions, if this should be procecuted that you can jail half this forum for inciting hate.
Again, i dont like what he says here but he has got the right to do so.

When you preach this to Dutch born Muslims, I am sure you can only further breed radical view points. The interesting thing is, I haven't noticed a single mosque in Holland, there are none where I live or the places I visit in Amsterdam, Amersfoort, Arnhem and other places I visit on a regular! (Maybe I Just overlooked them, but they certainly aren't prominent. I despise religion but you won't see me taking the bible for instance and twisting it's words to portray ALL Christians as blood thirsty tyrants, because that simply isn't true. Relgion causes war and other social problems, however Geert will have you believe that you have to sleep with one eye open as the bad Muslim man will climb through your window at night and behead you. It's a load of bull.

well there are quite a number of mosques in the netherlands but not all in plain view.
So are realy prominent with minarettes and everything, most are in old school buildings or even old churches with not many clear signs on the outside.
But you can spot them clearly when people are arriving there for service or afterwards.

The bilbe and cristian religion has been bashed quite well in this country trough the last decades in art, books and public opinion.
So much that hardly ever a court case is started about it any more.
We mostly got used to it, even most cristians themselves.

Please don't comment based on the one article your reading, listen to the guys political rhetoric, it is dangerous and comparable to the way Hitler rallied support against the Jews in Nazi Germany.

Maybe you can show me an example of how his retoric is simular of that of hitler?
Because i think he never called for the extermination of muslims.

He twists and bends the words in the Quaran to paint a picture of Muslims that is unfair and can be considered as propaganda! This can only endanger the Muslim community and hinder integration into the Dutch social culture.

Don't sympathise for this tyrant as he is just as intolerant against other peoples basic human rights.

Wilders is a racist bigot and a hypocrite to his cause.

There are many people in the world twisting words to fit their agenda, may are intolerant and hypocrites.
Many use the tools of propaganda for various reasons.
But i dont think people should be jailed for beeing hypocrites or intolerant.

There are many muslims to who "hinder integration into the Dutch social culture" for other muslims, should they be jailed to ?

"Don't sympathise for this tyrant" i dont sympathise much with this man but i wouldnt call him a tyrant.

Thanks for the input.

Thanks for your comments.
As far as i can see the man has the right to voice his opinions, specialy in a political debate.
Why can he not voice his opinion that Muslims pose a threat to society ?
If thats what he thinks than so be it, he is not asking us to kill them.

He isn't calling directly for the murder of Muslims, no. However Hitler didn't call for the extermination of all Jews at first. Can I ask where you saw me say that he wants to murder all Muslims? I never said that, please don't put words in my mouth.

Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views as being that 'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam'.[3] Wilders believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.

What if we would lock up anybody that doesnt agree with the "standard" even you could be jailed for frear mongering against wilders.
It is a dangerous road to extremism i believe.

I don't think he will go to jail even if he is successfully prosecuted. What makes you think the crime is punishable by jail in the Netherlands?

As far as i know he doesnt speak against "ALL" muslims, he is realy against the koran and extremism among muslims.

Wrong. He does clearly speak out against ALL Muslims.

"Wilders suggests that Muslims should “tear out half of the Koran if they wished to stay in the Netherlands”

Well i dont see what is illegal about these opinions, if this should be procecuted that you can jail half this forum for inciting hate.
Again, i dont like what he says here but he has got the right to do so.

This is EXACTLY how Hitler made his case to the German public against the Jews, he made the premise that they were being invaded and taken over and THAT is the comparison I am trying to make.

well there are quite a number of mosques in the netherlands but not all in plain view.
So are realy prominent with minarettes and everything, most are in old school buildings or even old churches with not many clear signs on the outside.
But you can spot them clearly when people are arriving there for service or afterwards.

My point exactly! What he is saying isn't even true!

The bilbe and cristian religion has been bashed quite well in this country trough the last decades in art, books and public opinion.
So much that hardly ever a court case is started about it any more.
We mostly got used to it, even most cristians themselves.

True. However, have any politicians in the western world tried to limit what Christians can and cannot do which directly affects there human right to freedom of belief and religion? No. I don't care if anyone critises Islam, this is my point, but I DO care when people sought to oppress an individuals right to belief. Do you think I would not be against a politician if they tried to outlaw the bible? Of course I would.

Maybe you can show me an example of how his retoric is simular of that of hitler?
Because i think he never called for the extermination of muslims.

Are you educated about what went on during the Fuhrer and world war 2? Do you think Hitler got up one day and started a party whos main focus was the exterminating of the Jews? Please, go back to the history books my friend. The extermination of the Jews was part of the final stages of Hitlers plan once he already had political power. Furthermore, I have showed you above how he compares to Hitler.

There are many people in the world twisting words to fit their agenda, may are intolerant and hypocrites.
Many use the tools of propaganda for various reasons.
But i dont think people should be jailed for beeing hypocrites or intolerant.

I don't think so either, and I never called for him to be jailed as you keep repeating. However, I DO have a problem with a politician abusing there powers to brainwash a proportion of the public with lies and propaganda. This is the type of person I have no sympathy for.


[edit on 12-2-2009 by IceColdPro]

[edit on 12-2-2009 by IceColdPro]

Originally posted by IceColdPro
He isn't calling directly for the murder of Muslims, no. However Hitler didn't call for the extermination of all Jews at first. Can I ask where you saw me say that he wants to murder all Muslims? I never said that, please don't put words in my mouth.

I am sorry if i made the impression to want to put words in your mouth, this was never my intention.
I was just pointing out that wilders does not call for active murder or voilence in the things he says so i dont see any reason so far to procecute him or to deny him entry into an other EU country.

Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views as being that 'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam'.[3] Wilders believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.

I dont see anything lawfully wrong wtih these statements, on a personal level i dont like them, but no reason to procecute.

What if we would lock up anybody that doesnt agree with the "standard" even you could be jailed for frear mongering against wilders.
It is a dangerous road to extremism i believe.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
I don't think he will go to jail even if he is successfully prosecuted. What makes you think the crime is punishable by jail in the Netherlands?

A member of parliament in the Netherlands who has been charged with "insulting" Muslims says he fears he will be found guilty and sent to prison in only a few months.
www.foxnews.com...

It looks like it is not just me thinking he would go to jail after a succesfull procecution.
Just a repeat of stuff posted allready.

As far as i know he doesnt speak against "ALL" muslims, he is realy against the koran and extremism among muslims.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Wrong. He does clearly speak out against ALL Muslims.

Ill take your own posted quote here to show what i have been saying from the start.

Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views as being that 'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam'.[3] Wilders believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.

"Wilders suggests that Muslims should “tear out half of the Koran if they wished to stay in the Netherlands”

Well i dont see what is illegal about these opinions, if this should be procecuted that you can jail half this forum for inciting hate.
Again, i dont like what he says here but he has got the right to do so.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
This is EXACTLY how Hitler made his case to the German public against the Jews, he made the premise that they were being invaded and taken over and THAT is the comparison I am trying to make.

How is this "EXACTLY" how hitler made his case in germany?
We are not beeing invaded here so i dont see any "EXACT" comparisons.
Maybe you could point them out more clearly ?

well there are quite a number of mosques in the netherlands but not all in plain view.
So are realy prominent with minarettes and everything, most are in old school buildings or even old churches with not many clear signs on the outside.
But you can spot them clearly when people are arriving there for service or afterwards.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
My point exactly! What he is saying isn't even true!

I think he does have a point in what he is saying, i dont agree with what he tries to imply but.
Since 1947 the netherlands went from almost no mosques to about 300 in 2005.
In 2007 CBS (central buro statistics) expected the muslim population in the netherlands to be just above 1 million.
That is quite a few considering the whole popultion in the netherlands is only 16 million.
So i think wilders continious the line on the statistics graph and sees that if the line goes on like this the country will eventualy only be filled with muslims.
I dont think it will ever come that far but he surly does and he has the statistics behind him.

The bilbe and cristian religion has been bashed quite well in this country trough the last decades in art, books and public opinion.
So much that hardly ever a court case is started about it any more.
We mostly got used to it, even most cristians themselves.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
True. However, have any politicians in the western world tried to limit what Christians can and cannot do which directly affects there human right to freedom of belief and religion? No. I don't care if anyone critises Islam, this is my point, but I DO care when people sought to oppress an individuals right to belief. Do you think I would not be against a politician if they tried to outlaw the bible? Of course I would.

There are examples where politics limits how cristians, or other religions, express their belief and religion.
Separation of church and state is one clear example.

I do agree very much on the point that the koran or bible should not be forbidden or surpressed.

Maybe you can show me an example of how his retoric is simular of that of hitler?
Because i think he never called for the extermination of muslims.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Are you educated about what went on during the Fuhrer and world war 2? Do you think Hitler got up one day and started a party whos main focus was the exterminating of the Jews? Please, go back to the history books my friend. The extermination of the Jews was part of the final stages of Hitlers plan once he already had political power. Furthermore, I have showed you above how he compares to Hitler.

I think the logic of your first comparison is flawed as i explined above.
And yes i am quite educated "about what went on during the Fuhrer and world war 2"
Most of my older family members had to live under hitler for 5 years.
My father is a history teacher and one of his specialities is WW2.

Dont you think it is a bit far fetched to say that wilders wants to exterminate muslims ?
Or are you implying that wilders has a final solution planned for the muslims.
Maybe show me the documents where he said anything like that.

There are many people in the world twisting words to fit their agenda, may are intolerant and hypocrites.
Many use the tools of propaganda for various reasons.
But i dont think people should be jailed for beeing hypocrites or intolerant.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
I don't think so either, and I never called for him to be jailed as you keep repeating. However, I DO have a problem with a politician abusing there powers to brainwash a proportion of the public with lies and propaganda. This is the type of person I have no sympathy for.

I never implyed that you said he should be jailed.

Not "all" the information i posted in the last 2 replies to you is ment to oppose or object to your points of view.
(edited to add)
I see a lot of points you are making i just dont share most of your conclusions.


[edit on 12-2-2009 by jaamaan]

Well it seems he's been denied entry to the UK on the basis of his opinions 'inciting hatred and violence'.
Don't many imans also do this yet are allowed to remain in the UK?

I think the man's comments that the koran contains many sociopathic statements is true - it does (so does the bible).

I think an open public debate is sorely needed on this issue as cherrypicking which extremists to allow into (or remain) in the UK whilst giving preferential treatment to those who 'hide behind religion' is a very unhealthy practise.

Freedom of speech should be about examining what each person has to say and accepting or refuting it -not censoring certain viewpoints because they might 'offend' a certain group of people.

A sanitized agenda driven 'version' of the truth arrived at by editorial censorship is not truth -it is propaganda.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


Yes wilders has been denied entry into the UK.

Geert Wilders, the rightwing Dutch politician accused of Islamophobia, was today refused entry to the UK after arriving at Heathrow airport in London.

Wilders was due to show his 17-minute film Fitna, which criticises the Qur'an as a "fascist book", at the House of Lords today. But on Tuesday he received a letter from the Home Office refusing him entry because his opinions "threaten community harmony and therefore public safety".

He arrived at Heathrow shortly after 2pm and was questioned by immigration officials.

On the plane from Amsterdam, the controversial leader of the Freedom party told Dutch journalists he had travelled to Britain in December without any fuss. "I don't see why there's a problem with me this time," he said. "I don't understand why they allowed me to come before and not now."

www.guardian.co.uk...

reply to post by jaamaan


Yes he called Gordon Brown the biggest coward in Eurpoe and he may be right.
I suspect many muslims are also disappointed as the government has also denied them the right to defend their position in open debate.

reply to post by karl 12
They deny entry to this Dutch geezer while letting in every Tom Dick and Harry from the Muslim world that's up for preaching what's in their heart. Why is this?

Here on the bbc website there is an interview with wilders while he was detained in the UK.
11 minute audio stream
I have to say he words his case quite well.

A Dutch MP who called the Koran a "fascist book" has been sent back to the Netherlands after attempting to defy a ban on entering the UK.

Freedom Party MP Geert Wilders had been invited to show his controversial film - which links the Islamic holy book to terrorism - in the UK's House of Lords.

But Mr Wilders, who faces trial in his own country for inciting hatred, has been denied entry by the Home Office.

He told the BBC it was a "very sad day" for UK democracy.

The Dutch ambassador was also at Heathrow to make clear his government's opposition to the ban on Mr Wilders entering the UK.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by karl 12
Yes he called Gordon Brown the biggest coward in Eurpoe and he may be right.
I suspect many muslims are also disappointed as the government has also denied them the right to defend their position in open debate.

He's denied the debate to begin with. No one is allowed to talk about it. Period. We have to just shut up and get along because that's the "multicultural dream".

Our govenment is wacked, and Brown is the most wacked of them all. They're the equivilent to children hiding under the bedclothes from monsters. Will it save you? Well, of course not, but you can't see it any more so it's OK.

I am sorry if I made the impression to want to put words in your mouth, this was never my intention.
I was just pointing out that wilders does not call for active murder or violence in the things he says so i dont see any reason so far to procecute him or to deny him entry into an other EU country.

You are indeed putting words in my mouth because you are quoting me, then replying to what I am saying with an answer that doesn’t correlate with any statements I’ve made. I repeat: I have never claimed that he is openly calling for the murder of Muslims or the murder of anyone. However, as I stated previously and as you claim that you have some knowledge of what went on in the beginning of Hitler’s political campaigns; Hitler never openly called for the extermination of Jews at the start, in fact, it wasn’t until the last stages that we actually even found out that he had active operations to exterminate Jews.

Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views as being that 'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam'. Wilders believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.

I dont see anything lawfully wrong wtih these statements, on a personal level i dont like them, but no reason to procecute.

You are missing the point and I am wondering whether it is intentional on your part.
Wilders wants to deport even citizens of the Netherlands who may have Dutch children, etc, and pay for them to return to their countries of origin. If you see nothing wrong with this, then that shows your character and true feelings towards Muslims. Think about what this policy would mean if it were implemented against the Mexicans, or any other minority in the states. I can’t expect you to understand where I am coming from when you clearly have no knowledge of the social situation in the Netherlands (where I live) and what upheaval such an idea would have if implemented into reality. As you mentioned in your post you are quite familiar with the number of Muslims that live here. I believe that what he is saying is dangerous and unethical. He is being prosecuted for inciting hatred and his radical rhetoric could put innocent Muslims who live in the Netherlands in danger.

A member of parliament in the Netherlands who has been charged with "insulting" Muslims says he fears he will be found guilty and sent to prison in only a few months.
www.foxnews.com...

It looks like it is not just me thinking he would go to jail after a succesfull procecution.
Just a repeat of stuff posted allready.

Maybe he will go to jail, who knows, but he surely isn’t innocent. Let me inject some perspective: We don’t have a problem in the Netherlands with extremist views and the great majority of Dutch Muslims reject these ideologies. (There haven’t been any terrorist attacks in the Netherlands) However, I don’t see why someone who is preaching about radical Islam can be prosecuted on hate crimes and inciting religious violence but when someone does it from the other side of the fence it now becomes an attack against freedom of speech. This is a double standard and we both know that radical Muslim clerics that are being prosecuted and banned from the UK on the same charges DO pose a real threat to us because of the hate they preach. Wilders does endanger the national security of this country and he is putting our troops abroad in the way of possible danger with his views that are getting more and more publicity everyday (on the back of this whole freedom of speech argument he is bringing to the table). Therefore Wilders and his racist views are a DIRECT threat to our national security!

How is this "EXACTLY" how hitler made his case in germany?
We are not beeing invaded here so i dont see any "EXACT" comparisons.
Maybe you could point them out more clearly ?

I will tell you how, as you claim to be educated on what went on in Germany, you seem to not understand my simple comparisons.
Hitler used propaganda to blame the Jews for the sorry social state of the country. There was a lack of employment at the time and Germans were generally pissed. Hitler portrayed the migrant Jews as stealing jobs, raping the economy, stealing from Germans, and changing the landscape with synagogues, Jewish businesses, etc. His early arguments were VERY similar to Wilders, but why should I have to point this out? Ask your dad who’s conveniently a history teacher. Do you honestly think that Hitler started out by openly even hinting to the extermination of Jews? Do you think he would have rallied up the support he did by openly requesting the murder of these people? Paleasee…

I think he does have a point in what he is saying, i dont agree with what he tries to imply but.
Since 1947 the netherlands went from almost no mosques to about 300 in 2005.
In 2007 CBS (central buro statistics) expected the muslim population in the netherlands to be just above 1 million.
That is quite a few considering the whole popultion in the netherlands is only 16 million.
So i think wilders continious the line on the statistics graph and sees that if the line goes on like this the country will eventualy only be filled with muslims.
I dont think it will ever come that far but he surly does and he has the statistics behind him.

Well done on watching his film Fitna and yes the statistics are correct. However, why should this pose a threat to me? I DON’T consider Islam to be dangerous. Do you? What exactly is your argument here? What threat do these Muslim buildings and places of worship pose to me? Do you live in Holland? Do you really think there are visibly that many Muslim people here? Unfortunately these statistics don’t show you what is going on in this country first hand, so if you think we have a problem with too many Muslims then that’s your opinion. I live here, there is no problem trust me and Wilders rallies support from a very small population of people. The rest of Holland has absolutely no problem with migrants or a high Muslim population. Wilders is using these statistics as propaganda and to play on the fears of the public, it’s up to you if you think that his argument is valid. I for one do not play into the propaganda assault that claims that Muslims are the enemy or pose a threat to my culture or livelihood.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by IceColdPro]

There are examples where politics limits how cristians, or other religions, express their belief and religion.
Separation of church and state is one clear example.

How does this counter the statement you quoted above? How does separation of church and state limit how Christians worship and practice their religion? You have lost me here and we aren’t talking about the USA.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Are you educated about what went on during the Fuhrer and world war 2? Do you think Hitler got up one day and started a party whos main focus was the exterminating of the Jews? Please, go back to the history books my friend. The extermination of the Jews was part of the final stages of Hitlers plan once he already had political power. Furthermore, I have showed you above how he compares to Hitler.

I think the logic of your first comparison is flawed as i explined above.
And yes i am quite educated "about what went on during the Fuhrer and world war 2"
Most of my older family members had to live under hitler for 5 years.
My father is a history teacher and one of his specialities is WW2.

Dont you think it is a bit far fetched to say that wilders wants to exterminate muslims ?
Or are you implying that wilders has a final solution planned for the muslims.
Maybe show me the documents where he said anything like that.

Seriously.
Where in the above quote did I claim that Wilders is campaigning for the extermination of Muslims? You claim to not be putting words in my mouth but I am wondering now whether you are finding it hard to grasp what I am saying instead.
Wilders is NOT calling for the extermination of Muslims. However, I repeat, NEITHER DID HITLER for the jews at the start of his campaign to power. We don’t know what Wilders final solution is for Muslims, however, no one knew what Hitlers final solution was at the time! THIS IS MY POINT!
Please show me where I stated that Wilders wants to exterminate Muslims, please?

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by karl 12

 

They deny entry to this Dutch geezer while letting in every Tom Dick and Harry from the Muslim world that's up for preaching what's in their heart. Why is this?

No they don’t let any Tom, Dick and Harry in. If you were informed then you would know that MANY radical Muslim Imams are rejected from entering the UK. MANY! These people also have a freedom of speech but we ALL know that there type of speech is dangerous and poses a threat to our national security. Wilders is inciting hatred in the other direction and show he should be banned just like the rest. Do you think these radicals should be allowed a freedom of speech? Of course not!

Originally posted by AngelInterceptor

Originally posted by karl 12
Yes he called Gordon Brown the biggest coward in Eurpoe and he may be right.
I suspect many muslims are also disappointed as the government has also denied them the right to defend their position in open debate.

He's denied the debate to begin with. No one is allowed to talk about it. Period. We have to just shut up and get along because that's the "multicultural dream".

Our govenment is wacked, and Brown is the most wacked of them all. They're the equivilent to children hiding under the bedclothes from monsters. Will it save you? Well, of course not, but you can't see it any more so it's OK.

What is there to talk about? Would you like to deport all migrant Muslims? Even those that have children in the UK and have lived and integrated there? Who have lived there for decades and contributed to the success of your economy? Please.
If so, then join the BNP, but even if there were no Muslim migrants then Britain would still have the issues it has. British politics has turned into a “blameocracy” as I like to call it. We all point the finger whenever something is the way that we don’t want it. This isn’t finding a solution. Britain is a multi-cultural country and so are many others in the 21st century. I love living in part of a multi-cultural society because it has many many benefits.

I don't agree with your demonisation of muslims and I don't consider comparing them to monsters accurate.


[edit on 13-2-2009 by IceColdPro]

reply to post by jaamaan


Why no one flag and star? This is freedom of speech vs hate speech, briliant discussion indeed for those drones.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Funny how those "hate speech" laws are never applied to critics of Christianity.

For the record, I disagree with all those "hate speech" laws. It's just interesting that they selectively enforce it.

i have always wondered that myself. apparently if you believe in and practice a religion that calls for all others to believe in your religion or be killed, THAT IS NOT HATE SPEECH???

[edit on 13-2-2009 by jimmyx]

reply to post by IceColdPro



Fine.
I respect your freedom of speech to.

Respect.

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Funny how those "hate speech" laws are never applied to critics of Christianity.

For the record, I disagree with all those "hate speech" laws. It's just interesting that they selectively enforce it.

i have always wondered that myself. apparently if you believe in and practice a religion that calls for all others to believe in your religion or be killed, THAT IS NOT HATE SPEECH???

[edit on 13-2-2009 by jimmyx]

Good point.
But i think there have been quite some discussions and actions against muslim clerics in the netherlands.
it is an ongoing battle between the more extreme sides of the debate.

I believe these matters should be solved with conventional law of the netherlands and not some obscure "European Court of Human Rights".
The current laws in the netherlands have plenty of possibilities to procecute or convict people when they call for murder, genocide or other voilence.

These new hate speech guidelines set out by this European Court of Human Rights should be carefully examined,because they seem to pose a real danger to the freedom of speech in the EU as we know it.
They will start to try and convict easy targets like this wilders person.
The dutch parliament hardly doesnt want to come to action after wilders was denied entry into the UK, after all he is a democraticly choosen member of the dutch government who was detained even by the UK police.

But think about what it might mean when these new hate guidelines become the norm.
A lot of discussions, like i see on a regular base on this forum, would become illegal.

We need these debates from all sides, muslim clerics, people like wilders and everything in between .
Most people in the netherlands like to live in peace with one and other and think there is plenty of space for freedom of expression.
This is even the main reason why the netherlands became so succesfull in the 1600's (the golden age) because people of mny religions could live here together without the fear of beeing procecuted for their beliefs.

These muslim clerics and wilders are just looking for the borders of the laws and their rights and see if they can stretch them to make them fit in the way they see things.
It is their right and it is up to the dutch democracy to determine the outcome of all these wild ideas.

GEERT WILDERS' SPEECH IN HOUSE OF LORDS IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM
vrijdag 13 februari 2009
London, Feb. 12, 2009

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.

Thank you for inviting me. Thank you Lord Pearson and Lady Cox for showing Fitna, and for your gracious invitation. While others look away, you, seem to understand the true tradition of your country, and a flag that still stands for freedom.

This is no ordinary place. This is not just one of England’s tourist attractions. This is a sacred place. This is the mother of all Parliaments, and I am deeply humbled to speak before you.
The Houses of Parliament is where Winston Churchill stood firm, and warned – all throughout the 1930’s – for the dangers looming. Most of the time he stood alone.

www.pvv.nl...

Click here for full speech

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Whatever happened to free speech?

The refusal to admit the oddball Dutch MP Geert Wilders to Britain yesterday marks a further retreat from this country's traditions of free speech. It stands in stark contrast to what happened exactly 20 years ago tomorrow, when Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran issued a fatwa calling for the death of Salman Rushdie for insulting the Prophet Mohammed in his book The Satanic Verses.

www.telegraph.co.uk...