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Dutch court orders anti-Islamic lawmaker Geert Wilders prosecuted on hate speech charge

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posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by jaamaan



There is a large difference between "hate speech" and discrimination.
Most western countries have laws against discrimination that work fine if used in the right way.


You really cannot separate hate speech from discrimination. No one discriminates just out of the blue. Hate speech give the tools and motivation to actively discriminate. Hate speech is fundamentally about incitement.

Religion is not like a political point of view nor is it a race or country. It is about people at a basic level.




posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth

Originally posted by jaamaan

I think you have to re read my posts again, i am sticking up for every one voicing their opinions , even the one of wilders, and i realy dont like what he say's.

Re-read please and see.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by jaamaan]


Ah, my apologies, I'll be honest, I just read your last post, which should explain my own.

However, I still feel I raise valid points, as does Wilder.


I understand.
And i see your points just as valid as mine.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by masonwatcher
 


When some one crosses the line from "hate" to discrimination, than the law kicks in.
The law sees these two as separate things.
Hate is an opinion.
Discimination is activly keeping some one from their rights.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by jaamaan
reply to post by masonwatcher
 


When some one crosses the line from "hate" to discrimination, than the law kicks in.
The law sees these two as separate things.
Hate is an opinion.
Discimination is activly keeping some one from their rights.



Any individual is welcome to impotently hate. No one really cares but propagating such beliefs is an act of incitement. It is an effective way of marginalising a community and is a precursor to discrimination and violence.

No one attacks things they are tolerant.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:11 AM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
It is an effective way of marginalising a community and is a precursor to discrimination and violence.



There are many things that can lead to voilence, some say watching action movies could lead to voilence.
If all these possible scenarios that 'could" lead to voilence would be procecuted than we can imprison large parts of the world population.
Alcohol could lead to voilence, but we choose a sytem of self responsebility, only when its actual use will lead to real voilence some one could be procecuted.

In my view, could lead to, is no criminal offence.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:14 AM
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The famous British video-blogger Pat Condell has spoken out about Geert's case. He considers the decision to prosecute Geert Wilders an unacceptabel limitation of the freedom of speech.



www.geertwilders.nl...



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by masonwatcherActually I would support hate speech laws to protect Christian minorities abroad. The same for any religion practised by a minority.


What about hate speech laws working for non beleivers (or kufars as some muslims refer to them)?

Shouldn't they be protected to?



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Deuteronomy 17:2-7; Deuteronomy 29:18 (New American Standard Bible)[/url]


2"(A)If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant,

3and has gone and (B)served other gods and worshiped them, (C)or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, (D)which I have not commanded,

4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and (E)you shall stone them to death.

6"(F)On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

7"(G)The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people (H)So you shall purge the evil from your midst


Good post -perhaps 'all' abrahamic sects/cults are just as bad as each other when it comes to having a
homicidal,bloodthirsty,sociopathic,divisive effect on humanity as a whole.

Lets also not forget that some agenda driven religious translators are just as guilty as others when it comes to purposefully misinterpreting abrahamic lore.

A good example would be when imans say that good muslims should
'beat their wives lightly'
The word 'lightly' was an added in as a complete fabrication and does not exist in the qu'ran text.
See 5:36


Other sociopathic quotes:


Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost

Koran 21:11
How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their inequities, setting up in their place other peoples

Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

Koran 44:43-50
Verily the Tree of Zaqqum will be the food of the sinful. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides, Like the boiling of scalding water Seize Ye Him and drag him into the midst of the blazing Fire Then pour over his head the penalty of Boiling Water

Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith (Islam) and belie our signs, They shall be Companions of the Fire and abide in it.

Koran 2:89-90
The Curse of Allah is on those without faith (in Islam) Thus have they drawn wrath upon wrath on themselves and humiliating is the punishment of those who reject faith (Islam)

Koran 9:35
On the day when Heat will be produced out of the wealth in the Fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their sides and their backs- "This is the treasure that ye buried for yourselves, taste ye then the treasures that ye buried."

Koran 8:50
If you could see when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers at death. How they smite their faces and backs saying "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire"

Koran 17:46-47
And we put coverings over their hearts and minds, lest they should understand the Koran, and we put deafness in their ears; when you commemorate your Lord (Allah) and Him alone in the Koran

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)


Cruelty and sadism in the abrahamic texts:
Bible
skepticsannotatedbible.com...
Qu'ran
skepticsannotatedbible.com...
Torah
www.religioustolerance.org...

Perhaps there should be a new international law enacted which protects people 'from' organised religions,particularly the abrahamic mythologies.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by karl 12
 



Thank you for this information.
It is much needed in this debate.

Free speech works more than one way.
It is a pitty that even the so called promoters of free speech tend to see it only from one side, even geert wilders himself tried, a few days after his procecution news, to silence an muslim imam for hate speech.




posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 06:45 AM
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Thats the price you pay for having a too Liberal country, fascists will use it against you.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by bicnarok
Thats the price you pay for having a too Liberal country, fascists will use it against you.



A "too Liberal country' needs constant maintenance just like a house or building.
We need to keep looking for things to fix up else it will all fall appart.

We all have the right to try and shape our world in the way we see fit, as long as it not crosses the same right of others.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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UK parliament calls off screening controversial film

LONDON: The UK’s parliament has cancelled the screening of a controversial film, titled ‘Fitna’, by right-wing Dutch MP Geert Wilders following vociferous protest by the Muslim community.

The screening was to take place on January 29 at the House of Lords.

www.dailytimes.com.pk...



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by jaamaan
 


Jaamaan,thanks for the reply - I think if a person is honest then they'd have to concede there are plenty of other sociopathic,homicidal quotes and instructions to true beleivers in 'all' the texts of the abrahamic sects/cults - not just islam.

Regarding certain comments made in this thread,I found the below site interesting for an informed and balanced view.

Although being highly critical of the Quran,it specificaly states the very wise (and important) observation that :


Islam is a broad faith and every Muslim should be treated as an individual and judged only by his or her own words and deeds.

In fact, there are exceptional Muslims whose faith gives them character, as evidenced by their sincere denunciation of terror and tangible resolve to ending it. They stand in sharp contrast to groups like the American CAIR and MPAC Islamic supremacist organizations, which use their influence to complain of petty grievances and inflame hatred against a country that tries hard to accommodate their faith in spite of the violence


Important reading:
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

More quotes:

Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..."


Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"


Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"


Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."


Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."


Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition to destroy the local religion in Yemen.


Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.


Sura (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.


Sura (9:12) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.


Sura (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."


Other homicidal bible quotes:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Abrahamic Lore and non beleivers:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by karl 12

Islam is a broad faith and every Muslim should be treated as an individual and judged only by his or her own words and deeds.




This is a very interesting and relevant quote i find.
Thanks for trowing that in.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by jaamaan

Originally posted by karl 12

Islam is a broad faith and every Muslim should be treated as an individual and judged only by his or her own words and deeds.




This is a very interesting and relevant quote i find.
Thanks for trowing that in.


Jaamaan it is a relevant quote and although many muslims are peace loving people who do not think of themselves as superior to others (or foster some delusion of world domination), it should not prevent
criticism and condemnation of texts and lore where appropriate.

I think no one person's/group's opinion should be above condemnation-especialy organised religion with their track record.

For me,I think the most relevant quote to understand the mindset of certain extremist,hardline muslims is this one..

Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..."

..although the argument can be made that if quotes and instructions such as the ones listed in the posts above are an inherent part of their religious instruction,then who can blame them for following orders and acting it out?



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Funny how those "hate speech" laws are never applied to critics of Christianity.

For the record, I disagree with all those "hate speech" laws. It's just interesting that they selectively enforce it.


Gotta agree with you on this. They are only given to those criticize blacks muslims and jews. If you criticize whites or christians you get away with it.

[edit on 27/1/2009 by Cauch1]



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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Here in the netherlands, and i think in many more countries, we went through some kind of cultural revolution.
In the last decades it has become much more normal to criticise the cristian religion.
Before most of the country was of cristian religion but the lost a lot of people over the last 50 years.
It has become much more normal to criticise the cristian religion in art and discussion.
As an example, i have seen many cartoons depicting jezus and god in all kind of funny ways in newspapers and even on t-shirts.
Most people, including most cristians, hardly ever take notice of these things or feel greatly disrespected because of it.

At the same time, there are still cristian religions in this country that for example dont recognise the equal rights of women to much.
Or some that dont realy like "non believers".
Same here, hardly ever that any one takes real notice or offence with these things.

Most people come to accept that there are these differences among people and we all founds ways to keep on living together in a fairly peacefull way.



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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Here is an update on the wilders subject.
He has now been denied entry ino the UK.
This is quite controversial considering he has not been convicted of anything.



Dutch Right-wing politician and controversial anti-Islam campaigner Geert Wilders has been refused entry to the United Kingdom despite being invited to visit by a member of the House of Lords, the British parliament's upper chamber.

Mr Wilders (pictured), who was due to go to London this Thursday, received a letter today, 10 February, from the British ambassador to the Netherlands telling him that he was not welcome, reportedly because his visit would constitute a threat to public order.

www.radionetherlands.nl...



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 11:16 AM
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This is a disgrace denying a man access to the country who has not been convicted of anything when every year we allow in hundreds of thousands of people many with dodgy backgrounds, no reason to be coming to our country and without any attributes we are in need of.



posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 03:16 AM
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Here is more on foxnews about the denied entry into the UK.



Lord Malcolm Pearson, who invited Wilders to address Parliament, criticized his country for its decision.

"I was very surprised the British government should have become so weak and useless that it denies a European member of parliament the right to free speech in the mother of parliaments," Pearson told Dutch Radio.

www.foxnews.com...



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