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Dutch court orders anti-Islamic lawmaker Geert Wilders prosecuted on hate speech charge

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posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by Notroh est
The multicultural experiment failed along time ago in my country, in reality, but the liberal loonies still think they know better then history, so it has become forcibly applied, be tolerant or go to jail, if your white and proud of your nations heritage you are discriminated against in law and media
Muslims can preach as much hate as they like, muslim criminals and rapists get shipped back to their country of origin in the quiet of night
While the white racist bigot nazies stories are pumped out by the media every waking hour
Our equal opportunity commission has even brought in laws to discriminate against white males, to benefit religious and cultural minorities
They call it “positive” discrimination


The multi cultural society has worked for several hundreds of years in my country, in fact it is one of the reasons this country (netherlands) went into the golden age because from everywhere in the world crafting people from all walks of life came to this country for its freedom of religion.
Today is see no real negative sides to this way of life, in fact i like to live among diverse people.

Personaly i dont like dicrimination, positive or negative, we have laws here that protect the individual rights of people and i think they are enough to counter extreme people calling for geocide.

This Mr. Wilders did a lot of statements that even offended me as a non muslim but i never ever heard him call for geocide or something simular.
Most muslim clercks and people like wilders know quite well where the borders of the law are and make pretty shure they stay within them i think.

So i think there is not enough to convict him under dutch law.
But there are new european hate speech laws that go much further so we will have to see how this evolves.




posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul

Passages are there but in full context arent as bad as they are made out to be,
thats the main issues i have had.
when people post passages they seem to always take 3 lines out 7 and say
here you go point proven.



Quite right bod, but the same can also be said when people selectively use quotes from The Koran, or any other religious writing such as The Bible etc, to support their beliefs / claims.

Censorship and the restriction of freedom of speech should be resisted at all costs.
Unfortunately, far too many people believe this right only exists for those whose opinions fit nicely into their PC version of things.
These people would gladly be burning books....how long till they advocate burning people at the stake?

Some people learn nothing from history.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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Hate speech is thought-crime...

It is hard to believe that so many people on ATS support thought-crime laws and are actually glad that people are now being punished for thought-crimes.

*I never though I would see the day where this would occur. But thought-crime laws have been in existence since the 1970's, especially in regards to the Jewish Holocaust. Then came race-based hate laws....

Now thought-crime legislation is being hybridized to include both race and religion, as in this case.

Disgusting. Pathetic. Etc. Etc.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


no i havent
hence why i asked you where you got that assumption
also its is a common curtesy to backup your claims

ask anyone on ats

[edit on 22-1-2009 by bodrul]


Well, I suspect you've had discussions about the Quran before, and this is quite a common one, in my experience.

And I told you, I am unable to at the moment. Perhaps you are wilfully ignoring what I'm saying? I don't have time to peruse the Quran to find what I'm looking for, I'm at work. All I can manage is a quick message like this. Keep making the same demand for proof all you want, but until this evening, I cannot do it. If you somehow feel this is indicative of my character, then you're too freaking sensitive!



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:31 AM
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These are the kind of people that should be thrown into the darkest dungeons:


Mohammed Bouyeri, the man who murdered Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh almost exactly two years ago is serving a life prison sentence, but now questions are being asked about whether the sermon of a Muslim cleric played a role in the crime.

During the ongoing trial of another Dutch terrorism suspect, Samir Azzouz, it's emerged that Imam Fawaz of the as-Sunnah mosque in The Hague gave a sermon condemning Theo van Gogh just a few weeks before his murder. A recording of the sermon exists and in it the imam is heard uttering a curse against the Dutch director for his film Submission, which is critical of Islam. The film had been shown on television shortly before the sermon.

In the recording of the sermon, Imam Fawaz calls Theo van Gogh a 'criminal bastard' and beseeches Allah to visit an incurable disease upon the filmmaker. He also condemns former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali who was involved in writing the script for Submission. The imam asks Allah to make Ms Hirsi Ali go blind and give her cancer of the tongue and brain.


No one seems to care about them.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


No not that common, i have yet to see someone show it advocates genocide
i will hold you to it to prove your Point when you have the time,
and to enlighten me where it says in the Quran genocide is ok.

when you posted your comment saying it advocates genocide
you should have known fully you would be asked to back your statement up



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 06:56 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by Freeborn
Unfortunately, far too many people believe this right only exists for those whose opinions fit nicely into their PC version of things.


Quite true Freeby!

At the same time, there are those who want to spew the vilest of hate and hide behind "freedom of speech" in order to get away with it, and thats just as bad really.

The answer, I suspect, lies somewhere in between. The problem is that - in cases like this - polarisation sets in and neither side is prepared to budge on the issue. For some reason people on both sides suddenly develop tissue paper skin when it comes to criticism in these issues.

I despise overt political correctness almost as much as I despise hate speech from any quarter. Most of it is self defeating.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul
now i ask again where in the Quran does it advocate genocide,
i would like to see the passage.



The Quaran urges those those fight for the cause of Allah and kill pagans wherever they are found. Whenever believers meet unbelievers, Muslims are encouraged to smite their neck and to fight those who believe not in Allah and the last day (2:244; 47:4; 9:5; 9:29).


www.apologeticsindex.org...

Try this as an aswer..........



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by heliosprime
 


Brilliant stuff, thank you!

Now, how is killing people who don't think like you not bad, Bodrul?



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by heliosprime
 


not really

all i see is 5 paragraphs which seem to be merged into
one




www.jannah.org...

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself);


during times of war

Quran translation

www.jannah.org...

i still dont see genocide


reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


still holding you to show me where it justifies Genocide


edit: to OP sorry for going off topic,

[edit on 22-1-2009 by bodrul]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by bodrul
 


You don't see a call to war as a bad thing? You want to get hung up on semantics, that's your call, but at the end of the day, your idolatrous book is literally has passages saying to kill and subdue people, simply because they don't think like you.

But no, you don't see it.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 07:56 AM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


at a Time of War is now refrenced as "Call to war"
Try again, you have time to reply yet you dont have the time to prove your point?

[edit on 22-1-2009 by bodrul]

my last reply on this topic, now i remember why i stopped replying to Topics concerning faith
feel free to do as you please


[edit on 22-1-2009 by bodrul]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 08:09 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 



Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
your idolatrous book is literally has passages saying to kill and subdue people, simply because they don't think like you.


You mean like this? Deuteronomy 17:2-7; Deuteronomy 29:18 (New American Standard Bible)



2"(A)If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant,

3and has gone and (B)served other gods and worshiped them, (C)or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, (D)which I have not commanded,

4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and (E)you shall stone them to death.

6"(F)On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

7"(G)The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people (H)So you shall purge the evil from your midst


Cherry picking works both ways you know. Anyone can highlight the really bad bits if they look for it. It most certainly doesn't mean that everyone lives that way, does it?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 22 Jan 2009 by neformore]

[edit on 22 Jan 2009 by neformore]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 08:32 AM
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People like Geert Wilders are just closet racist who try to convince people they're not criticizing people because of their skin color, but because of their religion and/or politics.

I have personally experienced people like him, who think they know better about us than we do. (we are monkeys, we live in small huts or trees, we are primitive etc...)



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


...do you think I'm going to defend the Bible? I'd personally side with the Amalekites, if I could...



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
These are the kind of people that should be thrown into the darkest dungeons:


Mohammed Bouyeri, the man who murdered Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh almost exactly two years ago is serving a life prison sentence, but now questions are being asked about whether the sermon of a Muslim cleric played a role in the crime.

During the ongoing trial of another Dutch terrorism suspect, Samir Azzouz, it's emerged that Imam Fawaz of the as-Sunnah mosque in The Hague gave a sermon condemning Theo van Gogh just a few weeks before his murder. A recording of the sermon exists and in it the imam is heard uttering a curse against the Dutch director for his film Submission, which is critical of Islam. The film had been shown on television shortly before the sermon.

In the recording of the sermon, Imam Fawaz calls Theo van Gogh a 'criminal bastard' and beseeches Allah to visit an incurable disease upon the filmmaker. He also condemns former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali who was involved in writing the script for Submission. The imam asks Allah to make Ms Hirsi Ali go blind and give her cancer of the tongue and brain.


No one seems to care about them.


I don't see any criminal statement done by this "Imam Fawaz" in the quote that you posted.
I realy don't like what he says in your quote but i think it is way to much to trow people into the "darkest dungeons" just for a statement that you or i don't like.
That is the main point i see and that is the reason i made this OP.

If this "Imam Fawaz" did any criminal statement than he would have been convicted for sure, specialy when the murder on Mr van Gogh was still fresh.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by jaamaan
 


You've just proved my point. If that's so much okay, then it definitely alright what Wilders said. This Imam get's a free bail-out card, while the horny lefties do everything to put him on trial

For the sake of clarity, I think Wilders is a fear mongering fool, but that doesn't mean that some should be given freedom of speech while others shouldn't.

Edit: I might add I therefore agree with what you stated in the OP.


[edit on 22-1-2009 by Mdv2]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by Mdv2
 



I am glad we seem to agree on the main point.
Freedom of speech goes both way's.

There always will be "fear mongering fools" around trying to abuse that right like that imam you gave as an example.

Hate is a very loose term and can easy be stretched to fit peoples agendas.
Thats why i think it is very dangerous to use the term in law and courts.
The call for murder or agression in public is much more clear and in most countries there are good laws in place to convict people if they brake them.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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They are trying to make wilders shut up and they want him out of politics so that nothing can stand in the way of the great islamitic super state.
it has only been one day after this treason and one of the biggest muslim fundi's is coming to preach hate and is going to speak against our freedoms our believes and he is going to speak against homosexuals , non believers and others which are in the way of the super state for muslims with sharia as law.

We have to stop this from happening and the man in the for front of this freedom fight is Wilders and they are trying everything they can to stop wildes.. Its muslim radicals and people I call NSB'ers ( after the people who sold there land out too the germans in wo2 leaded by anton mussert).. Am not against people just like wilders is but like wilders I am against were for example the relegious leaders of Iran are standing for .. and that is islamisation and the supression and killing of innocent people who don't want to believe in allah or any other god..

If they want wilders for a judge , I want Van Bommel ( socialist party )for the judge and taken to jail for his call for a new intifada against Israel .. a few days ago in a demo against the war in Gaza .


[edit on 22-1-2009 by MarkLuitzen]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
They are trying to make wilders shut up and they want him out of politics so that nothing can stand in the way of the great islamitic super state.
it has only been one day after this treason and one of the biggest muslim fundi's is coming to preach hate and is going to speak against our freedoms our believes and he is going to speak against homosexuals , non believers and others which are in the way of the super state for muslims with sharia as law.


Off course they are trying to shut wilders up, every one has the right to try if they feel offended.
What scares me is that they think they might have a case they can win.
Like i said before, i don't think wilders broke any laws that i know of, just maybe some new "hate speech" guidelines.
Not that i know all the man's material or statements, i just think he has a very good lawyer that informs him very well on the legal borders of his playing field.


Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
We have to stop this from happening and the man in the for front of this freedom fight is Wilders and they are trying everything they can to stop wildes.. Its muslim radicals and people I call NSB'ers ( after the people who sold there land out too the germans in wo2 leaded by anton mussert).. Am not against people just like wilders is but like wilders I am against were for example the relegious leaders of Iran are standing for .. and that is islamisation and the supression and killing of innocent people who don't want to believe in allah or any other god..


I don't think Wilders is realy the man at the front of this debate, he is on the extreme side just like the extreme muslims he is trying to fight.
They are all at the fringe edge i think.
The major part of the people just want to live in peace together and want to find way's to overcome our challenges hand in hand.



Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
If they want wilders for a judge , I want Van Bommel ( socialist party )for the judge and taken to jail for his call for a new intifada against Israel .. a few days ago in a demo against the war in Gaza .


This is the same example as the situation wilders finds himself in, i think.
Some people might not like the things this Mr. van Bommel shouted at this demonstration, but what did he actualy say, loose from the emotions it might raise.

"Intifada, intifada palestina vrij"
"Intifada, intifada liberate palestine"

I had to look up the word "intifada" and this is what came up:



Intifada (انتفاضة intifāḍat) is an Arabic word for shaking off, though it is generally translated into English as rebellion or uprising. According to a 2007 article in the Washington Post, "the word "intifada" crystallized in its current Arabic meaning during the first Palestinian uprising in the late 1980s and early 1990s". It is often used as a term for popular resistance to oppression.
en.wikipedia.org...


So a call for an uprising against opression or resistance.
I see no clear call for murder or voillence directly, in fact i find this example very simular to the wilders case.
Both have the right to express and voice these opinions even in public office.



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