Josef Stalin, page 1
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reply posted on 22-1-2009 @ 08:35 AM by Clearskies
reply to post by Russi


There is so little info about Stalin in the US.
How did Leiba Bronstein and Parvus kill Russians?


reply posted on 22-1-2009 @ 09:30 AM by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Russi


Yes, there were other monsters involved. True. Trotsky (Bronstein) is certainly one of them , only because he lost to Stalin in fight over power in USSR he probalby did not kill as many. And he is still symbol of some left movements. Go figure.
But Stalin as a saviour of Russia? You are mistaken. Industrialisation and mass education started during Lenin (another monster) time. Stalin just rashed industrialisation even more in order to make tens of thousands of tanks and aircrafts. He did not do it for Russia/USSR, nor for Georgia. He did it because he wanted communism to spread into neighbouring countries on point of the sword. And he sacrificed so many Russians (and other nationalities of course) to achive that, how can anyone descent claim that he benefited Russia? Before its collapse Russian empire was economically not worse then USSR during Stalin.
Peasants during empire were illiterate? Majority of them indeed were illiterate but alive. Because of Stalin's action lot of simple people were killed during collectivisation or world war 2, that would not have started if not Stalin. Hitler alone could not make it happen.
Current Russian leadership uses Stalin as an icon to show that central control is an only option for Russian federation to return superpower status, and it is insane. He killed more citizens of USSR then Hitler did.


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 10:29 AM by Russi
\Yeah that might be true, but did he have to kill 20 million people to achieve it.
I don't think you can justify that modernising the Soviet Union was worth all those dead people\

I wont even think to justify speculation... like "Stalin killed 20 million"...
No need to speculate now, there are documents made available. Unless we want to ignore facts and get into fantasies or falsification.

Such enormous numbers have been chosen wisely. They shock a person, causing strong emotions, but also destroy ability for critical thinking. The victim of manipulation would not even believe, that one can lie so! This method was widely used in fascist propaganda, for example. Its known to psychologists that everything that exceeds hundred thousand sounds for an average person as "too much". Therefore if an average person is told that hundred millions had been killed he would believe it because in his daily life he does not operate with the big numbers.

here is a simple arithmetic:

1) the population of th Russian empire was 150 000 000 in 1914
2) the first world war and civil war 1914-1922 - 15 000 000 killed
3) the second World war - 20 000 000.
4) according to "democratic sources" - 20 000 000 killed by Stalin
5) Total in Russian empire - 1914- 1953- 55 000 000 killed (excluding the natural population loss which in such war times shuld have been great as well).
6) A Question: considering above-mentioned figures, how the population of the Soviet Union culd be 200 000 000 in 1953 and 250 000 000 in 1983? How is it possible?
Considering that mostly men are killed in wars...
The conclusion is simple and can be made by any person who hasnt lost critical thinking (even before the real figures has been made public like in the last two years): there were no mass repressions.



\It has to be said that Stalin (a Georgian) also drowned the ethnic Russians in blood, along with anyone else who either incurred his ire or became a victim of the execution "quotas" of the secret police.
His (and his lackeys) ruthlessness preserved the Soviet Union from the Nazis, but it also secured his position of total contol as no one dared contradict the USSR's saviour...... And we know what happened to his loyal servents if he even suspected them of turning against him (or if they became too popular among the masses). \

Well, the fact is that Stalin has won another war which you are not aware of and that war took place before the second World War and enabled actually the victory of Soviet Union in the WWII...
OGPU and NKVD (or as you say secret police) were independent from Kremlin (Stalin) and sabotaged all the orders of Kremlin at that time. Their leaders were the same fanatic followers of Trotsky and his ideas of World revolution - they were all non-russians and emigrants who never cared much about Russia - for them it was just a territory they lived on and which they robbed. They did repressions on grand scale, Trotsky had to flee the country when he realized that Stalin, a person of not their clan and whom he considered a dumb puppet, had smashed all their plans (actually they just worked for their financial supporters: bankers of the USA and England (Jacob Schiff en.wikipedia.org...) and the rest of the same House...). Stalin closed the borders of the country from any foreign robbers, rejected the idea of World revolution and dominance and started to... restore the country after the chaos left by the Jewish permanent revolutioners. But he had to fight his way with OGPU and NKVD, which did everything to ruin the country in 30s according to the plan of Israel Gelfand ((en.wikipedia.org...) (too much money had been invested... and the dividents had to be paid...).
There was a war between Kremlin and the so-called Fifth Column and this was necessary, otherwise the country was doomed to become just another source of raw materials for the West. No way out. and stalin defeated it...just before the WWII...


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 11:10 AM by nuisance value
reply to post by Russi

Were still not escaping the fact theres alot of people dead Russi.

The Ukranian Terror Famine, the figures given show between 3 and 10 million people died in the Holodomor in the early 1930's.

That doesn't include the collective punishment of the Crimean Tartars the whole populace was deported to the Gulag as labour after the WW2.

And ofcourse the class structure was repressed, the elimination of the Kulaks of which 436,000 were executed part of the Great Purge.

You should read the story of Genrikh Lyushkov
it's just an example of how messed up the Soviet Union was.





[edit on 23-1-2009 by nuisance value]


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 11:25 AM by Russi
\Yes, there were other monsters involved. True. Trotsky (Bronstein) is certainly one of them , only because he lost to Stalin in fight over power in USSR he probalby did not kill as many. And he is still symbol of some left movements. Go figure. \

Monster is a mild word for this "hero of Jewish nation" the more the Jews have such heroes, like Bronstein, his ucle Abram Jovotinsky, Israel Gelfand, the more they will be hated worldwide. Please tell me what you know about siberian intervention of 1918-20? what was the reason of it? the number of ethnic russians killed? and who was behind it all?


Trotsky controlled OGPU and NKVD, even in exile he managed to do it, the leaders of these organs were all his people and they did their task well untill caught and shot. now the archives opened and the documents testify for their subversive activities and sources of money received.
Also one can compare the dates of orders issued by Stalin and their realization of OGPU who conducted collectivization too... it was total sabotage, those permanent revolutioners could do nothing except terror and murders... also they were good orators of course


\how can anyone descent claim that he benefited Russia? Before its collapse Russian empire was economically not worse then USSR during Stalin.
Peasants during empire were illiterate? Majority of them indeed were illiterate but alive. \

Well,slavery in Russia has been cancelled in 1861... reminds smth?
right! the USA! the Russians were just white slaves! check wikepedia. 90% of the population of Russia were peasants. All of them were illiterate and majority worked with primitive agricultural tools.
Please substantiate your claim that Russian empire was not worse economically than the the USSR of Stalin period... ! All the figures are public - so i guess it wouldnt be a complicated task?)) To tell you the truth, I would have checked first before making such claims.
You will see that its far from truth. Like sky is far from ground))
Alive? considering that every year the peasants were struck with hunger? there are also figures in internet considering the hungers in tsarist russia.


\Because of Stalin's action lot of simple people were killed during collectivisation or world war 2, that would not have started if not Stalin. Hitler alone could not make it happen.\

Of course Hitler couldn't))) Will you tell me how its started? Stalin did it?))

As for collectivization it was a necessary step, there was no other way... thanks to OGPU and NKVD, yes, rich kulaks suffered. it didnt struck hard simple peasants though. the results were more then successful.


\Current Russian leadership uses Stalin as an icon to show that central control is an only option for Russian federation to return superpower status, and it is insane. He killed more citizens of USSR then Hitler did.\

Unfortunateley, they dont. And unfortunately, Russia wont return the status the USSR had and the level of life of the USSR. Unless a miracle happens...
I wouldnt compare Stalin-Hitler...

The results of Stalin's rule:

1) industrialization
2) electrification
3) agriculture mechanisation.
4) free education for all people.
5) free medicine
6) nuclear shield
7) mighty army

Besides, all this has been done in 29th years, 4 of which the USSR fought with a monstrously strong and mortally dangerous enemy, practically alone and straining all forces, and from the moment of Stalin's coming to power and prior to the beginning of 30s, the country had been restored and gathered by parts since the Lenin-Trotsky comrades could only destroy and carry out revolutions, but couldnt work and create.


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 11:33 AM by Clearskies
reply to post by Russi

I am curious at what you are saying.
It sounds plausible. Trotsky was a bigger player than any of us have been taught.
Here's a thread I made about the Complete lack of info on our 200+ TV channels in the US.
Why don't they teach us more on these events?

Russi,
Why were the police putting Christians in jail, putting their children in orphanages and persecuting Christians in the 1970's, if Trotsky, bronstein and others were gone?
I've heard A LOT of testimonies about it.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Clearskies]



reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 12:23 PM by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Russi


First of all - about economy of Russian empire vs Stalin's USSR. So far i found nothing supporting my claim. So i probably was mistaken. However will jump to library on Sunday since i had an impression that during 1900s economy boomed and empire had huge gold reserves.


Monster is a mild word for this "hero of Jewish nation"

Trotsky hero of Jewish nation? He is not a hero. There are left movements (not only Jewish ones, they are a minority) that consider him an icon. But at least if two guys from this kind of groups that i know consider him a great man, second to Che Guevara. So even to certain left wing Jewish representative he is only second. Again. As for other population - he is not a hero by far. Majority does not know about him at all.
I really do not know about Siberian invasions (Antanta maybe?) so going to read about it too. However i do not recall that anywhere only ethnic Russians were targeted. Even if leaders of revolution were predominately Jewish, their army was predominantly not. Communism was targeting "enemy" classes,not races. Only difference from Nazism.
As for Trotsky controlling Soviet secret services - this is not correct. He was army man. He had no connection with NKVD or its predecessors. Stalin won because he controlled these branches together with manpower allocation. Stalin ruled USSR after (and even little before) Lenin's death - 1928. He had to fight for this control for several years but since he still controlled everything that happened trying to drop crimes of the regime on someone else and leave Stalin spotless is absurd. Nothing was decided without him. Just as industrialization 5 year plans are his baby, collectivization and thus killing of unwilling farmers directly or starving them out and "relocating" to Siberia is also his baby.
Serfs in Russian empire were liberated in 1860s and again made slaves by Stalin- during 1930s. People in Kolhoses did not have the right for passports, they could not leave those places,they did not receive money. How it differs from serfdom?
And finally - WW2 started after Hitler invaded Poland. And it was pre-agreed upon by Hitler and Stalin, USSR invaded Poland only weeks later. If Hitler was not sure that Stalin will play along he would never attack Poland since he could get war on two fronts in 1939. Do you know that USSR supplied Nazi Germany with fuel and other important supplies for French blitzkrieg according to the same agreement? And if Stalin did not allow Hitler to take Poland and not invaded Baltic states - there would be no common border between Germany and USSR and 1941 invasion was not possible.


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 12:37 PM by Russi
\I am curious at what you are saying.
It sounds plausible. Trotsky was a bigger player than any of us have been taught.
Here's a thread I made about the Complete lack of info on our 200+ TV channels in the US.
Why don't they teach us more on these events? \

Well, the archives are opened now. recently the russians made a documentary, just went to the national archives of France, Canada, GB, Germany, library of Congress (Washington) and showed all of them. invited even an american professor Richard Spence to comment on the activities of Trotsky and Parvus. the library of congress contains a lot of interesting documents, for example: the preliminary report and recommendations of the american intelligence network for the Versailles conference;which western parts of former russian empire shuld become independent. its recommended that there will be set an independent Ukraine, Crimea will become part of ukraine - it was not realized then, but was realized after the death of Stalin, as we know, when Khrushev released all those "fiery revolutioners" from prisons where Stalin made them work for the country the material is actually available...
but the media has different tasks... why shuld public know that they are cattle in reality...

\Why were the police putting Christians in jail, putting their children in orphanages and persecuting Christians in the 1970's, if Trotsky, bronstein and others were gone? I've heard A LOT of testimonies about it. \

First of all, please give a source! Its usually enough to see what or who the source is to make a conclusion.
accroding to protocol № 98 dd. 11.11.1939 г. on questions of religion. Stalin ordered:

in relation to the clergymen of the Russian orthodox church and all the christians.
1/ Forbid as not judicious the practice of NKVD USSR to arrest the cleargymen of russian orthodox church and persecution of the christians.

2). the order of comrade Ulyanov(lenin) dd may 1 1919, № 13666-2 “On the fight with popes and religion”, addressed to the leader of VCHK. (former NKVD) comrade Dzerzhinski and all correspodning instructions VCHK - OGPU- NKVD in relation to the persecution of cleargymen of russian orthodox church and christiansm, consider cancelled!

3). NKVD should make revision of the arrested and imprisoned citizens on such cases. release all luch cases..... if their activity has not done harm to the state.

in 70s, i wouldnt be able to find any witnesses who would claim of any persecutions of Christians. I was baptized in 1977 myself Not an orphan as you see.
But we should also understand and I mentioned here that all those permanent revolutioners and traitors whom Stalin sent to camps to work instead of steal and pervert the moral of people were released after his death in 1953! From that time, the process of ruining Soviet Union started.
why it took so long? Because, Stalin has managed to place a good foundation, he built state on Moral, moral was above everything, and it takes time to pervert people's moral... during these 29 years of his rule, he managed to make people feel owners of their country and the interests and well-being of their country was the main objective of people... so it took around 40 years to pervert it...)









[edit on 23-1-2009 by Russi]

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Russi]


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 01:30 PM by Clearskies
reply to post by Russi


One of the stories I heard was of a young police officer who was in the business of finding Bible study groups and terrorizing the attendants. Taking them to jail as needed.
Tearing walls apart to find Christian literature.
I don't remember the names. But, he went to Lenins tomb before he became a Christian. People were getting baptized in the backwoods creeks.
Here's what I could find about Christian persecution up until the 80's;
Christian persecution under Khrushchev and Brezhnev; Wiki
fter the advent of state funded universal education, the Church was not permitted to carry on educational, instructional activity of any kind. Outside of sermons during the celebration of the divine liturgy it could not instruct or evangelize to the faithful or its youth. Catechism classes, religious schools, study groups, Sunday schools and religious publications were all illegal and or banned. This persecution continued, even after the death of Stalin until the Fall of Communism in 1991. This caused many religious tracts to be circulated as illegal literature or samizdat.



reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 02:06 PM by Russi
reply to post by Clearskies


Well, one cant deny the fact that no sects were allowed during that time.
The russian orthodox church functioned though and the stories about blackwood creaks are just stories not grounded on reality. thouse who wanted to baptize kids could do it the usual way.
I do recall a family where father was an atheist and he prohibited his wife to baptize their daughter. the wife just didnt listen to him and secretly went to church and did what she wanted... no persecution of course except maye when her husband found out - maybe a family scandal but nothing more.
Stalin said that all anti-religious literaure is trash. its his known quote.
But yes, the religious literature were not published as well at the time following his death.
also, from that wiki artcicle, its true that all patriarchs have been approved on a state level - they tried to control church and there is good reason in it if we compare how corrupted is the church hierarchy now and what a good source of infiltration it is.
the meaning was to have patriarchs and priests the same as ordinary citizens who will answer for their deeds before the state law and not solve everything within their own hierarchy. they didnt like it? of course!

I failed to understand why that virtual policeman went to the Stalin's tomb...? to pray you mean? he must have been not sane then



[edit on 23-1-2009 by Russi]

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Russi]


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 03:01 PM by Clearskies
reply to post by Russi


He wasn't just a police officer. He was more like a soldier. (I don't remember the name of them).
But, he went to LENIN's tomb, like a good atheist.
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