Israel 'admits' using white phosphorus munitions

reply to post by Jay-in-AR


Can you show me where the US or Israel has violated any UN Sanctions?
I have not heard of the US or Israel being under international sanctions.

My point earlier about Hamas was their violations of Geneva conventions and international law. These concepts predate the UN, with the Geneva conventions going back to the 1800s. Hamas is a chronic violator of the conventions and human rights, not only against the Israelis but also against the Palestinians.

The first is that they are unlawful combatants. Many of their guerilla tactics especially those in civilian areas are violations. They have never shown any restraint and have it written into their charter to destroy Israel.

Note, this doesn't excuse or give Israel the right to act like Hamas.

WP IS allowed to be used for Illumination and Concealment purposes. If an Israeli APC or Foot-Patrol Squad, for instance, finds themselves caught in the middle of an Ambush, and needs to beat a retreat, they may and most likely will utilize WP in order to conceal their movements. It matters little whether this is a Civilian area or not, as Guerilla Warfare is fought amongst Civilians, especially in regards to the cowards Hamas, and you MUST take into consideration your own well being before being concerned about others around you. If a Civilian becomes burnt, but from an excusable and justified use of Willie Pete, then you can hardly blame a Soldier for wanting to save their life, and the lives of their mates.

The one weapon I am 100% against however is the Land Mine. Its kill rate is such, that you are more than likely to end up with an extraordinary amount of surplus buried Mines, which WILL kill innocent people for some time to come in the future. The only time that I find them to be acceptable, are when they are placed in a Security Perimeter around a Secure Location, and the Zone is Clearly Marked.

The gas produced when WP oxidizes is also quite deadly and damaging.

Used in such dense urban areas as Gaza, it has a similar effect on the lungs and mucous membranes, ducts and glands as chlorine gas, even though it is of a different chemical composition

The Israelis are effectively Gassing(!) the Palestinians with a weapon that caused your lungs to melt and unable to absorb and transmit oxygen. It causes inflammation of the mucus membranes and is a general irritant even in low amounts. It kills babies and old people, who are more susceptible to it's cardiovascular effects.

This purpose for the Use of WP appears to have been overlooked by many on this site.

In Vietnam WP grenades were used to gas the enemy in their tunnels. Many veterans on ATS can attest to this, even those who served in Afghanistan.

*Just imagine what it would be like to breath in a lungful of the 'smoke screen' that is being used to gas the Palestinians. It would burn, and you're breathing becomes forced and shallow. You feel like if you stop trying consciously to breath that you won't be able to, that your lungs won't respond.

That is just what one lungful of 'smokescreen' will do...

reply to post by Jay-in-AR


"Conflict - Israel takes land.

More Conflict - Israel takes MORE land.

And thus it has been since approx. 1950...

...And watch, they'll take more land this time, too."

*Well said!
Here is the map, analogous to the above truths:

reply to post by MikeboydUS


en.wikipedia.org...

There are the resolutions.

White Phosphorus and Red Phosphorus burn to produce a hygroscopic smoke containing phosphoric acids. Red phosphorus (RP) is not nearly as reactive as white phosphorus. It reacts slowly with atmospheric moisture and the smoke does not produce thermal injury, hence the smoke is less toxic.

taken from here

red phosphorus could be used if all they wanted to do is make smoke.

obviously they don`t want to so they use white phosphorus.

im waiting for the time they deploy black phosphorus and electrically charge the smoke.

so quit trying to take the moral high ground when talking about WP - if its used to flush anyone out as a result of the vapour its a breach of the CWC - thats Chemical Weapons Convention.

and Israel DID sign that one.

smoke screen? use Red Phosphorus , it does the same job and doesn`t burn people up.

edit:


whilst the US and Israel might have signed to say they won`t use them ( a misnomer since the USA are kicking up a stink about countries wanting nuclear weapons but haven`t signed the npt) , WP is converted into phosphoric acid when exposed to moisture - which IS covered by the CWC , and both USA and Israel have signed against the use of chemical weapons.

dropping phosphoric acid onto known concentrations of civilians IS a use of WMD`. and a war crime.

gone are the days of barbaric city cleansing in WW2 the conventions were drawn up to explicitly stop that from happening again.


[edit on 22/1/09 by Harlequin]

You are so wrong...Read a book. Look at the laws. WP is against international law if being used in a civilian populated area.
I call BS on you for being another dumbed down American idiot!
As for the rockets the palestinians launched...I have fire works bought at a roadside stand that are more powerful.
The Israeli army lost a few men. The palastinians have lost thousands of innocents.
Israel is commiting genocide Period.

There's two kinds of people. Those that know for a fact that WP is allowed, and under what conditions, and then there's those who just want WP to be illegal under all conditions.

Wanting won't get it done.

Do'ers and Want'ers.

I think everyone on ATS knows which line I stand in. It's a small group, but a realistic group.

And MIKE . . . thanks for giving those examples in the words of others who have used WP, how it's used, and why.

As I've said on many posts, WP has its uses, including flushing combatants, enabling them to be hit by HE. And the psychological effect is stunning.

And this "gas" effect is crap. You're talking about open areas in Gaza, and there is this thing called an atmosphere. It's big, and concentrations of any gas in the great outdoors are quickly dispersed.

I have never been exposed to so much disinformation.

Try, try, again.

Oh, so the US DID use white phosphorous in Fallujah?

Okay, I guess that is just another on the list of War Crimes to take place under George W. Bush. Not that it really matters, though. Like I said before, the illegal acts of the U.S. is not an excuse for others to commit illegal acts. In fact, this entire war the US is involved in is illegal.

Dooper: I suppose you just didn't read the above poster who eloquently pointed out the fact that White Phosphorous is also a chemical weapon. Something that the US and Israel have both sworn to never do, right?

Spare me.

Appeals to misplaced authority do not bolster an argument.

Mike: Did you read the list of sanctions that Israel has stood in opposition to? The US has stood in open defiance of the world courts, also. This latest Iraq was is just one example.

Actually, on second thought. Maybe I misstated my point or you misunderstood me. I never meant to say that there are any sanctions imposed on the US. I apologize for confusion. I should have said that the US and Israel lead the pack on going against UN Resolutions. Not being under sanctions.

Again, sorry for the confusion.
However, in the case of the US, we are in open violation of several international laws in this latest round 2 of the Iraq war. They tried to tag the war initially to the unilateral right to hot pursuit, but that didn't hold water. Then they said WMD. Didn't hold either. Now they just admit that they wanted to overthrow a dictator, presumably to put one in that will be sympathetic to their desires... At the end of the day, they initiated a completely unprovoked war. This is illegal. The only reason there AREN'T sanctions placed on the US is because we CREATED the UN. They won't put sanctions on Israel either, unless we give them that option.
But the list of the US violating UN resolutions around the globe is a substantial one. Look at Rhodesia, for example.

Edited twice for clarity


[edit on 22-1-2009 by Jay-in-AR]

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Jay-in-AR]

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Jay-in-AR]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


We may not like Hamas or Israel, but we do like and care for the innocent civilians being used as pawns in this game. Israel could have used special force squads to eliminate the 44, YES 44 Hamas militants they killed. My hat off to them only 10,000 wounded and nearly 2,000 civilians dead.

It makes me 'happy' to see that a few of you in this discussion tend to forget the less fortunate, or as you, or dooper would humbly put it, collateral damage. I hope one day your home town suffers such atrocities and you ask me for sympathy or care. And all you have is the scum of modern consciousness defending the murder of your family, by melting bubbling hot metals as a well executed military operation.

The U.S backed Israeli army went way too far, creating a whole new generation of haters. If that was their goal, they will succeed and then Israel will have all the land it wants, sorry, 'needs'.

Oh and bombing UN Aid facilities, UN school, UN shelters and buildings is against the law, and they will be faced with war crimes charges.

God's chosen people pffft more like terrorists, land thieves and whoremongers.

Oh, and each time that the US pushes for sanctions against a country like Iran, for instance, with the justification of "We think they may be using Uranium to develop a bomb", they violate the UN Charter.

Oh, and here is a nice link that will give a little info on the violations commited by Israel with full backing by the US. In fact, every time the international community tries to place sanctions on Israel, the US vetoes the vote. Obviously, since the US holds veto power in the security council, there will never be direct sanctions imposed on the US. However, they are accomplises to MANY violations commited by Israel. www.zmag.org...

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Jay-in-AR]

Originally posted by dooper
.
And this "gas" effect is crap. You're talking about open areas in Gaza, and there is this thing called an atmosphere. It's big, and concentrations of any gas in the great outdoors are quickly dispersed.

yes, just like the mustard gas used in WW1

I think you're just an armchair warrior with a copy of Janes

No REAL soldier I know talks anything like that - only the walter mitty types....

America has used this in Viet Nam and in Iraq? No?

reply to post by budski


Yeah, gas doesn't work in open air! That is why I had to train rigorously in gas masks and charcoal lined suits when I was in the service...
If I had known before hand I would have NEVER put all of that crap on, then strapped an 80lb ruck on my back and performed a forced march for 12 miles.
Hell, the AIR will save me from chemical and biological weapons. I should have realized that earlier.

Originally posted by budski

Despite the geneva convention stating quite clearly that WP is NOT to be used in civilian area's Israel stands firm in its conviction that the use of WP was according to international law.

The denials from israel when it was first accused of using WP were vociferous to say the least - now it appears that they are back-tracking and have said that the use of this horrible weapon was in line with international law, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Now they are trying to say that it was being used as a smokescreen - when there were no Israeli troops on the ground in the first instances of its use, what were they screening exactly?

The Israeli response is absolute rubbish and the use of WP in civilian area's was a criminal act.

www.timesonline.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

This also ties in quite nicely with this:

IDF officers intending to travel to Europe, whether for business or pleasure, have been advised to contact the Judge Advocate General's Office prior to leaving Israel; and some may be instructed not to leave the country.

The advisory has been issued following Israel's concern that international arrest warrants may be issued against officers who were involved in the Israeli offensive in Gaza, on charges of war crimes.
Jerusalem has reportedly received several reports suggesting international human rights groups are in the process of gathering evidence in the form of photos and testimonials, with the intent of filing suits both with the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague and in local European courts.

While the State is likely to be able to thwart such attempts in The Hague, having suits of this nature filed with local European courts quashed is more complex: Many of the European courts have taken it upon themselves to hear cases of alleged war crimes perpetrated in other countries, even if they themselves have no affinity to the case.

Once a European court decides to hear such a case, it is within its right to issue bench warrants for the alleged criminals – in this case top politicians and military personnel – and that is a move the State might find difficult to undo.

source

[edit on 21/1/2009 by budski]

"The Israeli military came close to acknowledging for the first time yesterday its use of white phosphorus munitions..."

That's slightly different than the tag line being used. Secondly, the prohibitions on WP say that it's not to be used on civilians. There is no stipulation saying what the minimum distance these munitions can be used if civilians are in the vicinity. There is no prohibition against using them against military targets, so long as they're not being used for their toxic properties rather than their incendiary ones. Furthermore, Israel isn't a signatory to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, so the stipulations contain therein, aren't binding.

reply to post by BlueRaja


The tag line is the one from the article, as per the rules of the breaking news forum - got a problem? use the alert button.

Also, read the whole thread - that point has been covered, and I have no intention of finding and posting a post because you're too lazy to read.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

The tag line is the one from the article, as per the rules of the breaking news forum - got a problem? use the alert button.

Also, read the whole thread - that point has been covered, and I have no intention of finding and posting a post because you're too lazy to read.

Your tagline says Israel admits to using white phosphorous weapons. That has an entirely different connotation than what is said in that article, which is what I pointed out.

reply to post by BlueRaja


Please refer to my previous answer and stop trying to derail the thread.

If you have a problem, alert the mods.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

Please refer to my previous answer and stop trying to derail the thread.

If you have a problem, alert the mods.

I'm not trying to derail the thread. I'm just trying to point out inaccuracies. I am allowed to disagree with you aren't I?

reply to post by Jay-in-AR


One more time. This must be such a difficult concept to grasp.

White Phosphorous IS LEGAL.

No war crimes. No illegal acts.

Revelation #2: White Phosphorous is NOT A GAS!

A chemical? Yes. Does it give off vapors during oxidation? Yes.

Does High Explosive give off vapors during oxidation? Yes.

Does cardboard give off vapors during oxidation lying in the sun? Yes.

Fuel/Air weapons give off vapors during use and oxidation? Yes.

Smoke rounds give off vapors during use and oxidation? Yes.

Revelation #3: War itself is not a crime!

For years, I've heard how our US education system is graduating some of the most unknowing, ignorant generations we have ever experienced as a nation. Do they not teach science any more? History? Law? Civics? World History?

Apparently not.