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Israel 'admits' using white phosphorus munitions

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posted on Jan, 31 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Obliterated
 


By contrast, I see the Israelis, who are well-trained, selecting and engaging specific targets.

Now, who is the most dangerous to civilians?


The one's with the expertise to hit precisely where they want to.

And that's why so many civilians died.




posted on Jan, 31 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Logic, painfully missing with some, tells us that anytime the Israelis determined to kill civilians, they could knock off 50,000 a day.

Therefore, there was not a willful intent to wipe out civilians.

The Israelis aren't that inefficient.

By the way, did you ever figure out what the Israelis were really doing?



posted on Jan, 31 2009 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


You say you know military tactics, and yet your whole argument is based around the full capability of the israeli's, rather than a part of it.

Even the US in DS 1 and 2 used but a fraction of their capabilities, therefore your theory about "wipe out if they wanted to" is moot.

Of course they COULD, but they are satisfied with 100-1 and they don't much care who those casualties are.



posted on Jan, 31 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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You're grasping. You know deep down that they didn't intentionally go out to kill civilians.

And I'm not talking about using their entire force. There were plenty of aircraft in the air, and plenty of artillery lined up, and if they wanted to kill civilians, they could just as easily have laid into them.

The Israelis had hard intelligence on specific hideouts and locations such as weapons storage, and other caches.

The Israelis didn't just decide to go in and start looking for targets.

They already knew many of the targets they wanted to hit, and they did.

They wanted to keep everyone's eyes focused on the north, and they did.

The intel the Israelis have is unbelievable. Maps of every hideout, every tunnel, pre-engineered and pre-wired IED's logistics tunnels, layered defenses, on and on.

They hit what they intended. Specific targets.

Collateral damage could just as easily been 10,000 or 15,000.

Intent to attack civilian? Tens of thousands.

I note that this entire thread is about the WP that was exploding so high above maximum effective altitude. It got everyone's attention, including yours, just as designed.

A very productive feint.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 06:48 AM
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reply to post by dooper
 


And where is your proof of this?

You are making a definitive statement about who and what the Israeli's were targetting - proof is required here, or you are just doing the same as you accuse others of doing.

Sources please.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 09:20 AM
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Israel used the `evidence` of a video to support there attack on the UN school

YET , that video was shot 2 years ago.

and where is the cries of Israeliwood for the murder then?



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Oh, come on budski. You've dominated this thread with all your knowledge, surely you can make this determination on your own!

Instead of falling for the misdirection as did so many others, do a review of the operations. It's there if you can figure it out.

No, we have to rail against something that was the ruse. Never mind that the real action and real purpose was elsewhere.

The Israelis fooled Hamas, the Gazans, and apparently those weren't the only ones.

This is a riot!



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by dooper

The Israelis had hard intelligence on specific hideouts and locations such as weapons storage, and other caches.

The Israelis didn't just decide to go in and start looking for targets.

They already knew many of the targets they wanted to hit, and they did.

They wanted to keep everyone's eyes focused on the north, and they did.

The intel the Israelis have is unbelievable. Maps of every hideout, every tunnel, pre-engineered and pre-wired IED's logistics tunnels, layered defenses, on and on.

They hit what they intended. Specific targets.



I'm not the one who is grasping - please state your sources for the knowledge you say you have.

these are statements which are definitive, therefore you must have a source for them.

Please post those sources and enlighten us poor mortals.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


I knew it. Your reply was much too quick. You like others to do your homework, enabling you to post opinions.

Not me. If you can't find it, you don't want to.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


Sorry, but that won't wash - when you have asked others for sources, they have provided them.

You made a definitive statement that you had knowledge of israeli plans and intent.

Please cite your sources for this.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by BlueRaja
 


I disagree - how can you target one of the most densely populated area's in the mideast, if not the world and NOT expect to have massive civilain casualties.




My point is that there is no Convention/Law of War regulation, stating that under no circumstances can you attack a foe in urban environments, or that there must be zero collateral damage. The only stipulations are that you minimize collateral damage to the extent possible, while still achieving the military objective.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by budski

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Obliterated
 


By contrast, I see the Israelis, who are well-trained, selecting and engaging specific targets.

Now, who is the most dangerous to civilians?


The one's with the expertise to hit precisely where they want to.

And that's why so many civilians died.



Once again you're making completely baseless assertions that Israel deliberately targetted civilians so that they could have high body counts. If Israel wanted high body counts, they could've had casualty figures in the tens/hundreds of thousands by now.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by dooper
 


And where is your proof of this?

You are making a definitive statement about who and what the Israeli's were targetting - proof is required here, or you are just doing the same as you accuse others of doing.

Sources please.



The proof is what they've hit. Do you think that the IDF just started shooting without having some idea of what they wanted to hit? According to you they just randomly fire into Gaza, except when they're targetting civilians, in which case they specifically target them(though not too many as they want to drag out their genocide as long as possible). Here's the facts- the IDF has hit a lot of Hamas targets using PGMs. Many of these targets were in proximity to non-combatants, which has resulted in collateral damage. Between intel folks/FOs on the ground, and manned aircraft/UAVs providing real time imagery, they have a very good idea of what they want to hit, and what they have hit.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


Again, you make plenty of assertions without actually providing any proof.

How do YOU KNOW that the israeli's did not target civilians?

Why was WP being used BEFORE any troops went in?

The preponderance of evidence is that Israel DID target civilians and civilian area's.

Just because they didn't wipe out tens or hundreds of thousands in one go in no way indicates that Israel was not targetting civilians.

Here's the thing - Israel could quite easily kill and maim a few thousand every 6 months or so, call it collateral damage and still maintain a goal of wiping out the inhabitants of gaza, it would just take a bit longer that way.

And again, just like dooper you are making a definitive statement about israeli intel capabilities without offering anything in the way of proof or sources.

You, as well, demand sources from everyone else, but cannot provide them yourself.



[edit on 2/2/2009 by budski]



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by BlueRaja
 


Again, you make plenty of assertions without actually providing any proof.

How do YOU KNOW that the israeli's did not target civilians?

Why was WP being used BEFORE any troops went in?

The preponderance of evidence is that Israel DID target civilians and civilian area's.

Just because they didn't wipe out tens or hundreds of thousands in one go in no way indicates that Israel was not targetting civilians.

Here's the thing - Israel could quite easily kill and maim a few thousand every 6 months or so, call it collateral damage and still maintain a goal of wiping out the inhabitants of gaza, it would just take a bit longer that way.

And again, just like dooper you are making a definitive statement about israeli intel capabilities without offering anything in the way of proof or sources.

You, as well, demand sources from everyone else, but cannot provide them yourself.



[edit on 2/2/2009 by budski]


All the while you make definitive statements about Israel targetting civilians, and intentionally committing crimes. You can't have it both ways.
You might have a valid point if only civilian targets had been hit, instead of anything with military value. To simply assert that Israel has the intention of killing everyone in Gaza is not supported by any evidence, and is just more of the typical anti-semitic talking points.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


there's been plenty of PROOF provided for my assertions, both by myself and by other members.

The FACT is that you have either ignored the proof, dismissed it as "too left wing" or not bothered to respond.

All this while you yourself intimate you have knowledge of what the isreali's are doing, but refusing to provide ANY proof.

If you have knowledge of israeli intentions, intelligence and targets, then PROVE IT - list your articles, documents, cite your sources as others have done in response to your "arguments"

And for the record, I have NEVER said that Israel is ONLY targetting civilians, that is a knowingly false statement and as such is against the T&C.



[edit on 2/2/2009 by budski]



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by budski



And for the record, I have NEVER said that Israel is ONLY targetting civilians, that is a knowingly false statement and as such is against the T&C.



[edit on 2/2/2009 by budski]


Nice tap dancing, and trying to wrap your inability to provide a substantive response in the T&C.

So are they just MAINLY targetting civilians, and occasionally hitting Hamas? I guess any source that is too conservative or not anti-Israel enough can't be trusted either eh?

how about a source that you do trust?

news.bbc.co.uk...

Mr Abbas has accused Hamas of having "taken risks with the blood of Palestinians, with their fate, and dreams and aspirations for an independent Palestinian state".



About a third of the Palestinian dead and wounded were civilians,

Assuming their numbers are accurate, which I'm not convinced of, that would mean that two thirds of the dead were not civilians. This would tend to contradict the notion that some Hamas members are getting killed in the process of genocide against civilians.

www.msnbc.msn.com...


"It's also an area in which Hamas participates in activities like human shields and using buildings that are not designated as military buildings to hide their fighters,"



Hamas has said it won't accept any cease-fire deal that does not include the full opening of Gaza's border crossings. The U.N. resolution emphasized the need to open all crossings, which Israel and Egypt have kept sealed since Hamas militants forcibly seized control of the territory 18 months ago.


Apparently, it's not just Israel that doesn't have much use for the UN.


In Lebanon, Hamas official Osama Hamdan told Al-Arabiya that the group "is not interested in it (the U.N. resolution) because it does not meet the demands of the movement."



The Islamic militant group, which was behind suicide bombings that killed hundreds of Israelis in past years, has been largely shunned by Western powers since coming to political power in 2006 Palestinian elections.

That isolation has only deepened since Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 in five days of fighting with the Fatah movement of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Moderate Arab governments as well as the U.S. and its allies in Europe have supported Abbas' government, which controls only the West Bank.


www.haaretz.com...

On Friday, the IAF bombed the home of Hamas member Mohammed Madhoun, who was responsible for rocket attacks against Israel.

Madhoun's house was also used as a laboratory for the manufacturing of rockets and explosive devices and as a storage facility for rockets, mortar shells, and various weapons.


Earlier Friday, the IAF targeted the home of Hamas military wing commander Imad Akel, a senior Hamas operative. His house was used as a large storage facility for weapons. Akel was the founder and one of the men .ing Hamas' rocket and mortar efforts, in addition to being a weapons manufacturer. Large secondary explosions were seen following the attack proving the presence of large amounts of weaponry.


The IAF also bombed the residence of former Hamas minister Atef Adwan. Adwan was the Minister of Prisoner Affairs in the government of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh.



Earlier Friday, IAF planes, in coordination with the Shin Bet, bombed the home of senior Hamas activist Mohammed Matouk. The IDF said that Matouk's home was being used by militants as a weapons storehouse and factory, and that a smuggling tunnel had been dug underneath the building.

Before dawn, Israeli aircraft hit 15 houses belonging to Hamas militants, Palestinians said. They said the Israelis either warned nearby residents by phone or fired a warning missile to reduce civilian casualties.



Late Thursday, IAF aircraft struck a mosque in the Jabaliya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, being used as a terror-hub by the Hamas terror organization.

The mosque had served as a storehouse for a large number of Grad missiles, Qassam rockets and additional weaponry. The strike set off series of secondary explosions and a large fire, caused by the ammunitions stockpiled inside the mosque.



The assassination of Nizar Ghayan left dozens of people from neighboring buildings injured and brought up the body count on the Palestinian side to 425 people since the start of the campaign. The number of wounded is now estimated at around 2,000.

The IDF Spokesman said that Ghayan's house had served as a weapons silo and a war room for Hamas. Under the house, according to the IDF, was a tunnel which was meant to serve as an escape route in case of an Israeli attack.

Palestinian media reported that the incident was not a planned assassination, but rather a routine bombing of a target suspected by the IDF to contain weapons.

The IDF has code named such operations "roof knocking," in which the army informs the residents of s suspected building that they have 10 minutes to leave the premises. In some cases, residents of suspected houses have been able to prevent bombing by climbing up to the roof to show that they will not leave, prompting IDF commanders to call off the strike. In these cases, Channel 10 reported Thursday, the IAF sometimes launches a relatively harmless missile at the corner of the roof, avoiding casualties but successfully dispersing the crowd.

Sources familiar with Ghayan's record said he was one of the people who encouraged Gazans to climb on rooftops to prevent bombings.


www.jpost.com...

and before you discount the source, this story was from the Associated Press

A year of information-gathering by Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) paved the way Saturday for Operation Cast Lead.

......Thirty minutes later, a second wave of 60 jets and helicopters struck at 60 targets, including underground Kassam launchers - placed inside bunkers and missile silos - that had been fitted with timers.

Their locations were discovered in an intensive intelligence operation. The goal: to strike at Hamas's ability to fire rockets into Israel.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 01:18 PM
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Legal? According to international law? Well DU has been found in the Gaza Victims and that is Criminal and Declared a WMD according to international law!


[edit on 2-2-2009 by mystiq]



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


First of all that was from october last year, and was a completely different attack - what the hell does that have to do with the current conflict?

Hamas are going to keep everything in the same place are they?


No tap dancing from me - as usual you attempt to cloud the issue and make this thread about hamas when in fact it is about israels use of WP in civilan area's.

You make definitive statements about the current conflict then back them up with old sources????

Now, as you made a definitive statement about Israel only targetting hamas and not civilians, please back that statement up and cite sources from the current conflict.

Hamas may shoulder some of the blame, but that's not the title or the debate in this thread, this is about israel using WP in gaza when they had previously denied it, and about the targetting of civilian area's.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


if you have a complaint re the T&C then instead of trolling , press ALERT - you are not a MOD , SUPER MOD or ADMIN , let them do the job and don`t pretend to be something you are not.



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