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Israel 'admits' using white phosphorus munitions

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posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by dooper
The thing is, you don't start a shooting war, and then whine about your casualties.

Unless you're a girly-man Hamas-hide-my-face and shake-my-weapon-while-hiding-behind-women-and-children.

Cry, cry.

Pullllease!


Is that we have so many films about how hard done by the US was in vietnam?

Geez, there must be hundreds of the things - "Oh woe is me, we had to fight in the jungle against the nasty little communist men"

Who exactly, is doing the crying there, Rambo?




posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 03:56 AM
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Obviously people here do not know what white phosphorous is or how its used on a battlefield. Its not napalm it doesn't drop from the sky spreading flames of destruction and burning people alive. If white phosphorous is used and you die from it it will be from the fire it starts in the building your in most of the time all it does is hit something and smoke a lot. smells really bad and puts out a blinding light. There is munitions that use white phosphorous included with bomb lets but this is made to disorient the enemy lots of smoke with air busts going off, Used primarily to get people to vacate a building without having to blow it up.
If the Israelis truly wanted to burn people alive they wouldn't be using WP there is much better stuff out there its main purpose is to cause smoke and emit light. and if you want to see white phosphorous in action go buy a road flare same stuff.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 04:03 AM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


apparantly you looked at the first post and pressed reply - please go back to page 1 , or even page 10 and click on the 2 pictures i posted - civilians most certainly die from being hit by WP.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
hese have to be posted again:







click for full size


WP was used during the day , so that discounts the `illumination` arguement

was airburst for maximum field of effect and was dropped directly onto civilians.

the damning evidence above directly shows a war crime


This isn't white phosphorous seen it several times its an air burst gone wrong the munition is set to explode a set number of seconds after designation the howitzer that fired this miscalculated the trajectory angle and it went off way too low. if used correctly it would have shaken the ground like an earthquake. when they hit the ground the effect is lost and innocent people get hurt. And before you start i am not saying what Israel is doing is right but i am tired of people making things up to try to prove there view is correct. Theres 2 sides to every story.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 04:36 AM
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anyone would be tired about making things up - but thats an airburst WP shell , theres also a video of the same thing over the UN building.




that is a WP bomb being dropped on a ship , the USS Alabama , General Billy Mitchell - commander of the tests stated that it wa s a test of a White Phosphorus Incendary weapon


notice the brust pattern from the low height airburst , much lower than the airburst WP shells that are used in Gaza

finally;

www.guardian.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

the MSM on tv and on printed media are all saying those pictures are of airbursting WP shells.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Here is a Drawing from the Guardian.co.uk that satires the propaganda that is used in order to continue deploying this most horrendous ordinance:


(Image courtesy of Guardian.co.uk)

*Also, Dooper knows damn well that WP can be used to gas people... As do I - As does any Veteran of Vietnam or Afghanistan who has used this stuff to "clear tunnels" .

It is a Gas weapon and there is no denying it it is used for the purpose of Gassing people - along with concurrent incendiary, anti-personnel/material effects. Oh yeah, it can be used for smoke screens too... but so can Sarin and Mustard Gas ;-)



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
reply to post by dooper
 


Bait and switch.

In reality, Israel is the aggressor in this region, and this CAN be firmly established.



Yes, i fully agree. Not only this, israel is also not ONE BIT better than hamas in terms of hiding behind civilians. Why does hamas target innocents? Because the political leaders are simply out of reach for them. They H-I-D-E. Now here does the same excuse apply as the idf is using to kill civilians. There's no difference. Both sides use the same inhuman tactics. There's no "terrorists" on one side, and "honest fighters" on the other, as israel likes people to believe.

The people who say hamas is breaking international law far more than israel must be directly payed by the israeli propaganda machine. That's simply a ridiculous claim.

Ever thought about the root of the problem?

Who has stolen land and acted against any law there's on this planet?

Who has killed hamas leaders during the last ceasefire, which then resulted in the hamas response of launching rocktes into israel territory, which THEN RESULTED IN THE KILLING OF 1500 INNOCENT PEOPLE?

Who is interesested in gas resources infront of the gaza coast?

Who killed rabin in 1996, which resulted in a new election, which then resulted in the end of the until then very successful peace negotiations?

Who colonised palestine territoy during peace negotiations?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

Israels goverment is full of criminals, which on top of that act like they're victims of some islamic conspiracy, when in fact they are almost the only ones responsible for this whole mess. They have given too many chances for peace away to point the finger on the other side anymore. They've stolen land, the've cooped palestine people like cattle, they've destroyed their whole infrastructure, they've mistreated and took the least bit of hope from them since 1947. And finally the few people who have the guts to stand up against these bunch criminals are declared as terrorist?

I'm on your side, if you question the tactics used by hamas. They are definatly immoral and inhuman, BUT PLEASE, you've to question israels tactics with the same type of criticism. Stop these ridiculous double standards! And stop using the word moral, when all you say is the most immoral and disgusting s*** i've ever heard in my life.

And deltaboy/zeroknowledge, you're comments aren't surprising me, but you're wasting your time, if you think that you can convince anyone with an iq higher than a gibbon, that using wp against civil targets is morally right.

Dooper, you was born just 500 - 5000 years to late. No need to comment on you.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by hackbart]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by hackbart
 


I'm glad someone brought up the gas issue


I've wanted to post this story from the Jerusalem post for a few days now, which is almost gleefull in it's commentary and self congratulatory tone that they may be able to "steal" this resource from under the noses of the palestinians.

As ever, this conflict is about resources - no wonder bush jumped up to obey them, he had dollar signs in his eyes again.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
reply to post by RustykShade
 


On the subject of stictly illegal weapons, just wait for the next batch.

Apparently scientists in the US are getting closer to developing a cloaking device. Which means, in my eyes, that they are already there, or REALLY damned close.

There you go, next we'll hear people arguing that it was somehow "legal" to use a cloaking device to walk up to an enemy and stab them in the face while they were eating chow.

Or to cut their junk off while they were "behind a bush" so to speak.

I mean seriously, what could the POSSIBLE use of a cloaking device be if not for deceit?

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Jay-in-AR]


Military deception is an important tool. The days of brightly colored soldiers, neatly lined up in rows is long gone. It keeps your foe off balance, giving you the initiative and advantage of surprise.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by Lazyninja


I agree with most of what you're saying, but my point is definition. I don't have a romantic view of war, it's just that there's a different way of describing conflict in it's many forms and scales.

There are fights, skirmishes, and wars. And then you got your genocides and ethnic cleansing.

Conventionally war is what I described, when you're talking about an army killing a 99% civillian population that's not a war, because the other side isn't an army.


[edit on 22-1-2009 by Lazyninja]

The casualties have been nowhere near 99% civilian, unless you're including civilians that carry weapons, and shoot Israelis.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by Techsnow
 


WP doesn't fall under the category of Chemical weapons.

here are the criteria for its use-

The target must be military, and it mustn't be used with the intention of having its toxic properties be the wounding/killing agent. It is lawful to used for its incendiary effects, marking effects, and as an obscurant to screen movements.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Do you know who the folks in that picture are? There needs to be some context before summarily assigning guilt. If they are indeed non-combatants, then I'd agree these pics are hard to defend. If those are members of Hamas, then that changes things a bit.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


yes of course the paramedic , carrying a medical aid kit , wearing the standard `uniform` of red cresent to the right of the picture means he`s HAMAS then does it


edit: in a less sarcastic tone - notice the ambulence , also to the right (click the picture) being hit by WP.

[edit on 23/1/09 by Harlequin]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 



No it's not forbidden by the CWC if it is used within the context of a military application which does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement.
If that is the purpose for which the white phosphorus is used, then that is considered under the convention legitimate use.
If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited, because the way the convention is structured or the way it is in fact applied, any chemicals used against humans or animals that cause harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons".


Peter Kaiser , Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons who have oversight to the UN for adherance to the CWC.

news.bbc.co.uk...


using as smoke , then its complient , but RP (Red Phosphorus) does the same job and is less toxic

used any other way , as in the photo`s above then its breaking the law


throw a grenade into a tunnel to gas anyone then its a chemical weapon.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by Harlequin
 


Do you know who the folks in that picture are? There needs to be some context before summarily assigning guilt. If they are indeed non-combatants, then I'd agree these pics are hard to defend. If those are members of Hamas, then that changes things a bit.


Yes, they are obviously unarmed, so there's no way for either me, you or the idf to tell if they are hamas fighters or civilians. Wp is completely ineffective against guerilla targets in densely populated areas.

Just look at the real reasons behind this war:

www.telegraph.co.uk..

Budski has also found a good source for this (thx, for that!):

www.jpost.com...

Israel is not interested in peace, or at least their actions speak against them in every way, and the use of wp against civil targets is not to kill or distract hamas fighters, that's complete utter bs.

Edit: I cannot link the telegraph article, i've no idea why, but you can find it if you paste this into google: Gaza doesn't need aid: it has a £2bn gas field

[edit on 23-1-2009 by hackbart]



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Ownification
reply to post by budski
 





White phosphorus is also a terror weapon.

I'm curiouse why no one still calls the zionist regime a terrorist organization? Is Gaza not an extermination camp? I'm still wondering what the world is waiting for, this is insane.


Well if the goal is extermination, the Israelis aren't being very efficient, but that term sure appeals to emotions. There are varying figures for the actual number of casualties, and their exact makeup, but the fact remains that the vast majority of casualties were combatants.

Here's a few articles to peruse.

I know you'll probably dismiss this stuff as being biased towards Israel, but....are you going to tell me that there's no bias in the Arab media either?

www.imra.org.il...

www.ynetnews.com...

""The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article. "

uk.reuters.com...

"The adviser said Israel would allow the "maximum" flow of food, medicine, oil and gas to the Gaza Strip to help its 1.5 million residents recover from the offensive, which killed more than 1,300 Palestinians, but a wider range of goods, including steel and cement needed for rebuilding, would have to wait."

"Olmert's adviser said Israel's underlying goal was to deny Hamas control over border crossings that could help it cement its hold on power. "If opening the passages will strengthen Hamas, we won't do it," he said. "



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by hackbart




Yes, they are obviously unarmed, so there's no way to either me, you or the idf to tell if they are hamas fighters or civilians. Wp is completely ineffective against guerilla targets in densely populated areas.




Those that can be seen in that pic appear to be unarmed. That still doesn't tell you or I who they are. Without more info, it's impossible to make any sort of definitive determination, as they may have just put their weapons down, or the may be going to get weapons. We don't know what happened just prior or just after this pic. We don't know what the IDF knew at the time this location was targeted. We can all speculate, and that's about it.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by BlueRaja
 



No it's not forbidden by the CWC if it is used within the context of a military application which does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement.
If that is the purpose for which the white phosphorus is used, then that is considered under the convention legitimate use.
If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited, because the way the convention is structured or the way it is in fact applied, any chemicals used against humans or animals that cause harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons".


Peter Kaiser , Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons who have oversight to the UN for adherance to the CWC.

news.bbc.co.uk...


using as smoke , then its complient , but RP (Red Phosphorus) does the same job and is less toxic

used any other way , as in the photo`s above then its breaking the law


throw a grenade into a tunnel to gas anyone then its a chemical weapon.



It can also be used lawfully for its incendiary properties, if it is used against military targets.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by BlueRaja
 


yes of course the paramedic , carrying a medical aid kit , wearing the standard `uniform` of red cresent to the right of the picture means he`s HAMAS then does it


edit: in a less sarcastic tone - notice the ambulence , also to the right (click the picture) being hit by WP.

[edit on 23/1/09 by Harlequin]


I'm not sure which picture you're referring to. In the ones I was talking about, there's no ambulance or paramedics.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Wow you actually compared an Israeli weapon to a picture of a world war 1 aircraft throwing a bomb over the side of an aircraft wow. I don't know if you noticed but weapons have changed since then. That picture you think is WP was out the second day of the conflict the closest someone came to calling it white phosphorous was msm by saying possible use of white phosphorous with that picture. However I am sure they called there military adviser who then informed them its not white phosphorous isn't contained in canisters that bounce off buildings it burns too hot and to fast, Due to temperatures that can melt steal it burns through buildings.
Your culprit probably is (1) Hexachloroethane. Hexachloroethane (HC) smoke (smk) projectiles are available for 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers. They are used for screening, obscuration, spotting, and signaling purposes. This base-ejection projectile is ballistically similar to the HE projectile. It is fitted with a mechanical time fuse M565 or M577. The round expels smoke canisters that emit smoke for a period of 40 to 90 seconds.
And ill say it again fired too low i might add.




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