Originally posted by jmdewey60
Sorry to disappoint you but I am not having a heart attack over this because it is not anything startling and
definitely nothing new.
by locoman earlier over on the bible versions thread:
Also, to add in with the other comments, I maintain that God and Jesus co-existed before creation. They both work as one but are both separate beings.
God the Father and Jesus the Son. The God that spoke to the patriachs in the Old Testament and who claimed to be "I AM WHO I AM" to Moses was Jesus.
Jesus was the Creator of all things on behalf of the Father. I will make a new thread concerning all of this in case you guys start to have a heart
attack over such a bold claim of 2 divine powers at work before creation. Please hold your comments for this post for my new thread AFTER I post my
proof. God bless you all.
There are writers of my own church (SDA) who make the same claims, ie Jesus = Jehovah.
It is based on the probably true concept that God has Angels who go around doing the actual physical acts that are considered to be "Acts of God"
and that even though God appeared on Mt. Sinai it probably, in actuality was still really just an angel. OK, I can accept that, but they carry it a
step further and speculate that since it must have been some very special being to be a stand-in for God, and Jesus is, somehow or in a certain sense,
a representation of God, in that he reflects the personality of God in a way that is visible to ordinary humans; that this special god-double that we
know of as Jehovah may very well, or on second thought, must be Jesus.
Well nice thought and everything, and you probably imagine that you are doing Jesus a favor by lifting him to such an elevated position.
Wrong. Jesus is a person, born from Mary who lived a more than just perfect life and was shown to all mankind as being sealed by God, in order to make
sure everyone knows that he did the works of his Father and not his own.
Additional speculation about "Jesus" is pure bunk because "Jesus" did not exist, as a person, before he was born.
In my last post I mentioned code words. Add another to the list: "Person".
I have determined and feel I have come up with some substantial proof that Jesus was God in human form. Please read on and allow me to show it with
proof of scripture. I will be referencing and writing scripture throughout this letter, and I will add a few notes also.
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Colossians 1:14-17)
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) (1 Timothy 3:16)
John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John 1:26 KJV) (John 5:18, John 1:10)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (John 2:19 KJV) (Also, refer to John 10:18, 1 Peter 3:18)
Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the
Jesus' Temple (Body) was destroyed (John 19:30, Matthew 27:50)
Jesus' Body was raised up in three days (John 20:1-29, Matthew 28:7-10)
Jesus did ascend up into heaven (21:1-25, Luke 24:51, Mark 16:19), and will descend from heaven in the same manner; this is noted in 1 Thessolonians
4:16, Revelation 1:7, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26.
Therefore prophecy was fulfilled, and he(Jesus) spoke it in scripture, and fulfilled what was said in John 2:19
God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is
called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:24-26, Isaiah 41:4)
Jesus proclaimed to be the Messiah in John 4:24-26.
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broke the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal
with God. (John 5:18) (Also see John 5:19-30, Deut 5:13-15)
Then said they unto him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me, nor my father: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father
also. (John 8:19) (Also see John 8:29, John 8:42, Matthew 11:27)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by
him(God); and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
He(Jesus;the true light) was in the World, and the World was made by him(Jesus), and the World knew him not. (John 1:10) (refer to Genesis 1:1, John
1:26, John 8:12, Deut 4:32)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV) (Hebrews 1:2-3)
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all
things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."(Col. 1:16-17)
"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."(Job 33:4)
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his
understanding no one can fathom."(Isaiah 40:28)
The above not only states that Jesus made the World, in the book of Genesis God claims to have made the very same World.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom(heart) of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him. (John 1:18 NLT)
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the
Son will reveal him. (Luke 10:22)
I've two exceptions to this. This is as follows, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the
Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:8-9)
And the second exception is in Genesis 18, where three men appeared to Abraham, and the Lord spoke about child bearing.
Now back to Jesus!
Now we know from commandment that we are not to tempt the Lord thy God. In the book of Matthew, Jesus once again, gives a clear indication that he is
the one not to be tempted. Jesus states this after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’" (Matthew
4:6-7, Deuteronomy 6:16)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5) (refer to Deut 6:4)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all
things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and You in me, and I in you. (John 14:20) (Also refer to John 17:11, John 17:21)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: For my
Father is greater that I. (John 14:28)
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (John 15:23)
Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jesus Clearly states equality with his Father here, and Jesus states his power and authority:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. (John
10:29-30) (refer to John 10:38)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made
Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled
Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philipians 2:5-8)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him(Jesus), Lord, shew
us the Father, and it sufficeth with us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been with so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that
hast seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or
believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:7-11)
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:1-3)
Jesus clearly states this:
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:15)
It is clear that in John 16:15 Jesus declares that he is equal with his Father(YHWH, YHVH, JEHOVAH, the Creator, God Almighty).
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the World: again, I leave the World, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the World was. (John 17:5)
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the
presence of God for us: (Hebrews 9:24)
From the book of John at John 17:5, it may seem that from this statement that Jesus declares that him and his Father are two seperate spiritual
beings. But clearly in other passages it is shown that the Father and Jesus are One in the Same, and that there is only One God. So what can be drawn
from this statement? That Jesus was seperated from his spiritual Godly form due to his confinement in human Godly form. What a sacrifice that must
have been for God. Even though Jesus and the Father were within one another, they were seperated between the barriers of the physical(seen) realm and
the spiritual(unseen by the physical) heavenly realm. No wonder Jesus anticipated his return to his Father. A body would have felt like a prison in
comparison to the freedom of being a spiritual and heavenly being.
From the yiddish proverb we surely can understand that “A half-truth is a whole lie”
We can tell from the above quoted biblical scripture that the whole truth is that Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, and that is no lie.
Now in conclusion I would like to make a few more important connections out of scripture.
God will Judge man in the Last Day. (John 12:48)
The Father delivered man into Jesus' hand to Judge. (John 5:22) Hence, God(Jesus) will Judge man in the last day. (refer to Deut 1:17)
The bible clearly states to Fear God, for the Hour of His Judgement has come. (Revelation 14:7) (Also see Revelation 19:1-2, Romans 14:10)
"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this
charge..."(2 Tim. 4:1) (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether
good or bad."(2 Cor. 5:10, Joel 3:12)
God will dwell with man in new Jerusalem; the paradise Earth. (Revelation 21:3-7, Revelation 22:3-4)
Jesus was the word of God. Jesus was Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. The Lamb of God. The Prince. (Revelation 19:11-16) (Psalm 47:2, 1 Timothy
Jesus is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning aand the End. Yes he had a beginning as a human being, and yes he was
created as a human being, allowing him to be the only begotten Son of God; None-the-less, he existed in Spirit first, and was in the beginning with
God, and if God Almighty had no beginning in Spirit(at least not one that we as human beings can comprehend), then it's likewise with Jesus Christ!
Jesus was subject to a physical death, and not a spiritual death. Jesus is forevermore, eternal, always...(Revelation 22:13, John 17:5)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no
God."(Isaiah 44:6)(Isaiah 48:12, Jeramiah 10:10)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me."(Isaiah 43:10)
"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."(Deut. 32:4) (2 Samuel
22:32, Deut. 7:9)
"...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."(1 Cor. 10
"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"(Isaiah 43:3) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)
"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."(Isaiah 45:21) (Deuteronomy 32:39, Titus 2:13, Isaiah
Now my actual conclusion that I drew from scripture just blows me out of the water. In the book of Revelation, John clearly indicates that Jesus
Christ is God! Read and learn, and you'll clearly see this. The bible interprets itself.
In Revelation 1:1, what does John say?
God sent the Revelation to John by way of his angel. (Revelation 1:1-2)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he(God) sent and
signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all the things he
saw. (Revelation 1:1-2)
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his
servants the things which must shortly be done.
In Revelation 22:16, what does John recollect Jesus saying?
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(Revelation 22:16) (Revelation 2:8)
Was it God who sent the angel to John, or was it Jesus who sent the angel to John? Clearly there was only one angel who was sent to John to bare
record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ! Clearly Jesus Christ and the Father are One. There is Only One God! Jesus Christ and
the Father are that One God, and They are the same spirit in unity!
God is Love, and what greater Love can be given than to sacrifice his only begotten Son, himself, the Firstborn of God, God as Man, the Son of Man,
his very own beloved creation. Then, he gave his life only to take it. Only God can have such power. (John 3:15-16)
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32 NIV)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. ( Luke 18:19)
Obviously, Jesus was referring to himself as God here!