The pre-creation existence of Jesus

reply to post by Ridhya


Good point. If the english language would properly translate Yeshua, it would properly read as Joshua.... a very common name that means "God is my salvation" in the hebrew language. YHWH is not really able to be translated into english so to call Him "Father" or "LORD" is proper but calling Him "God" came from paganism. They called inferior dieties gods and when a pagan converts to christianity to learn of only one God, He gets capitalized and has dominion over the other gods. God is technically more of a title than a name while YHWH is His name. Actually I believe that's the name which translates to "I am who I am." Correct me if I'm wrong. I may be thinking of "Elohim" or "Eloha". Either way, you are right about the names we call our God and Savior.

Originally posted by Locoman8
Who was Jesus before His human birth?

The most definitive and clear statement about Jesus before His human birth is recorded in the first few verses of John's Gospel. John, Jesus' closest disciple, takes great care to explain that this Jesus is no ordinary man.

Jesus was not a human before his human birth.
What he was cannot be described.
So,
We just call it "the Word".
God cannot be described.
"Jesus" is a description.
"Jesus" and "the Word" are not the same.
The Word is not an individual in the sense of being different from God.
The Word is equal to God.
Whatever "the Word" is, it is one Word, not many words.
Christ is one Word.
Christ is equal to GoD.


John does not explain how the Word "became flesh".
John did not know how the Word became flesh.
How does what is equal to GoD become unequal to GoD?
"Sin".
Sin is unbelief in Christ. [see John chapter 16]
Jesus became flesh through unbelief in Christ.
Jesus became flesh the same way we all become flesh...born in sin.
What is true about Jesus is true about all of "us".
Through sin, we all fall short of the glory of God.
Through Christ, we all rise to the glory of God.
Man is not glorious.
So,
Man is not of God.
Man is of sin.
Christ is glorious.
So,
Christ is of God.
Christ is sinless.

The world arises out of unbelief in Christ.
The world is a sin.
Sin is not the truth.
The truth takes away sin.
The truth takes away the whole world.
Because,
The whole world is born of sin.
The truth takes away the sins of the world by proving the world is a lie.

The world is a lie masquerading as the truth.
Unbelief in truth is the belief in lies.
All lies are lies against the truth.
So, the world is a sin.
However,
Sin is not the truth.
Sin is a lie.
Unbelief in truth is belief in a lie.
Belief in a lie does not make it the truth.

The truth about lies is that they are not the truth.
The truth takes away the sins of the world because sins are lies.
The truth is sinless.

Jesus was the truth
The truth was not Jesus.
The truth is true for all.
What is true about Jesus is true for all.

Jesus was Christ, in truth.
Christ is not Jesus.
Christ is not a human.
A human is truth, sacrificed in favor of lies.
A human is a lie, living on the death of truth.
A human's "life" is a lie.
A human is not "alive".
A human "lives" as the truth is sacrificed.
Power, drained of truth, supplies man the "blood" he needs to "live".
The "blood of Christ" is the power of truth invested in lies.
Belief in lies robs power from the truth, and gives it to sin.
A human is Christ crucified.
Christ crucified is Christ unbelieved.
Christ unbelieved is Christ attacked.
"The world" is founded on an attack on Christ.
So,
The world is an attack on God.
So,
The world is Christ crucified.

Christ is "slain before the foundation of the world".
Christ is the truth.
As the truth dies, a lie "lives".
The world is a lie.
Everything about the world is a lie.
Separation is a lie.
Guilt is a lie.
Everything about "liFe" in the world is a lie.
Lies-for-feelings is "liFe" in the world.
The feeling of lies is an emotional rollercoaster.

Through his death and resurrection, Jesus taught us how the world begins and ends.
The world begins with an attack on the truth.
The world begins with unbelief in Christ.
Unbelief in Christ and attack on Truth are the same.
Faith in lies attacks the truth.
The world is built on faith in lies.
Faith is the "substance" of things unseen.
Faith is the "evidence" of things hoped for.

The world is a wish...something "hoped for".
The world is a death wish.
The world is insane.
The world is a sin.

Sin is seriously insane notions about Christ.
Insanity is not the truth.
The world is insanity.
"Man" is born of insanity.
Man is not the truth.
Man is a lie.
Man is the manifestation of many.
Many is a manifestation against the One.
As the One is broken, the many "live".
As the Truth dies, the lies "exist".

Man is a lie about God.
God cannot be limited.
If God could be limited, God could be killed.
Man is killed in place of God.
Sin intends to kill God.
Sin kills God as it believes that God can be limited.

Man is the sacrifice of truth.
Man is a lie.
Man is deprived of truth.

As man dies, truth lives.
Man thinks he "lives".
This is a lie.
Truth lives.
Man must die if he would live as Truth.
Jesus died to "Jesus" that he may live as Truth.
We must "follow" this example, if we would live as Truth.

Christ!





[edit on 19-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by jmdewey60

by locoman earlier over on the bible versions thread:
Also, to add in with the other comments, I maintain that God and Jesus co-existed before creation. They both work as one but are both separate beings. God the Father and Jesus the Son. The God that spoke to the patriachs in the Old Testament and who claimed to be "I AM WHO I AM" to Moses was Jesus. Jesus was the Creator of all things on behalf of the Father. I will make a new thread concerning all of this in case you guys start to have a heart attack over such a bold claim of 2 divine powers at work before creation. Please hold your comments for this post for my new thread AFTER I post my proof. God bless you all.

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not having a heart attack over this because it is not anything startling and definitely nothing new.
There are writers of my own church (SDA) who make the same claims, ie Jesus = Jehovah.
It is based on the probably true concept that God has Angels who go around doing the actual physical acts that are considered to be "Acts of God" and that even though God appeared on Mt. Sinai it probably, in actuality was still really just an angel. OK, I can accept that, but they carry it a step further and speculate that since it must have been some very special being to be a stand-in for God, and Jesus is, somehow or in a certain sense, a representation of God, in that he reflects the personality of God in a way that is visible to ordinary humans; that this special god-double that we know of as Jehovah may very well, or on second thought, must be Jesus.
Well nice thought and everything, and you probably imagine that you are doing Jesus a favor by lifting him to such an elevated position.
Wrong. Jesus is a person, born from Mary who lived a more than just perfect life and was shown to all mankind as being sealed by God, in order to make sure everyone knows that he did the works of his Father and not his own.
Additional speculation about "Jesus" is pure bunk because "Jesus" did not exist, as a person, before he was born.
In my last post I mentioned code words. Add another to the list: "Person".

I have determined and feel I have come up with some substantial proof that Jesus was God in human form. Please read on and allow me to show it with proof of scripture. I will be referencing and writing scripture throughout this letter, and I will add a few notes also.
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Colossians 1:14-17)
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) (1 Timothy 3:16)

John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John 1:26 KJV) (John 5:18, John 1:10)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (John 2:19 KJV) (Also, refer to John 10:18, 1 Peter 3:18)
Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,"(Heb. 13:20)
Jesus' Temple (Body) was destroyed (John 19:30, Matthew 27:50)
Jesus' Body was raised up in three days (John 20:1-29, Matthew 28:7-10)
Jesus did ascend up into heaven (21:1-25, Luke 24:51, Mark 16:19), and will descend from heaven in the same manner; this is noted in 1 Thessolonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26.
Therefore prophecy was fulfilled, and he(Jesus) spoke it in scripture, and fulfilled what was said in John 2:19
God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:24-26, Isaiah 41:4)
Jesus proclaimed to be the Messiah in John 4:24-26.
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broke the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18) (Also see John 5:19-30, Deut 5:13-15)
Then said they unto him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me, nor my father: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8:19) (Also see John 8:29, John 8:42, Matthew 11:27)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him(God); and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
He(Jesus;the true light) was in the World, and the World was made by him(Jesus), and the World knew him not. (John 1:10) (refer to Genesis 1:1, John 1:26, John 8:12, Deut 4:32)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV) (Hebrews 1:2-3)
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."(Col. 1:16-17)
"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."(Job 33:4)
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."(Isaiah 40:28)
The above not only states that Jesus made the World, in the book of Genesis God claims to have made the very same World.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom(heart) of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)
I repeat,
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him. (John 1:18 NLT)
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. (Luke 10:22)
I've two exceptions to this. This is as follows, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:8-9)
And the second exception is in Genesis 18, where three men appeared to Abraham, and the Lord spoke about child bearing.
Now back to Jesus!
Now we know from commandment that we are not to tempt the Lord thy God. In the book of Matthew, Jesus once again, gives a clear indication that he is the one not to be tempted. Jesus states this after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’" (Matthew 4:6-7, Deuteronomy 6:16)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5) (refer to Deut 6:4)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and You in me, and I in you. (John 14:20) (Also refer to John 17:11, John 17:21)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater that I. (John 14:28)
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (John 15:23)
Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jesus Clearly states equality with his Father here, and Jesus states his power and authority:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. (John 10:29-30) (refer to John 10:38)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philipians 2:5-8)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him(Jesus), Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth with us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been with so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hast seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:7-11)
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:1-3)
Jesus clearly states this:
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:15)
It is clear that in John 16:15 Jesus declares that he is equal with his Father(YHWH, YHVH, JEHOVAH, the Creator, God Almighty).
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the World: again, I leave the World, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the World was. (John 17:5)
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: (Hebrews 9:24)
From the book of John at John 17:5, it may seem that from this statement that Jesus declares that him and his Father are two seperate spiritual beings. But clearly in other passages it is shown that the Father and Jesus are One in the Same, and that there is only One God. So what can be drawn from this statement? That Jesus was seperated from his spiritual Godly form due to his confinement in human Godly form. What a sacrifice that must have been for God. Even though Jesus and the Father were within one another, they were seperated between the barriers of the physical(seen) realm and the spiritual(unseen by the physical) heavenly realm. No wonder Jesus anticipated his return to his Father. A body would have felt like a prison in comparison to the freedom of being a spiritual and heavenly being.
From the yiddish proverb we surely can understand that “A half-truth is a whole lie”
We can tell from the above quoted biblical scripture that the whole truth is that Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, and that is no lie.
Now in conclusion I would like to make a few more important connections out of scripture.
God will Judge man in the Last Day. (John 12:48)
The Father delivered man into Jesus' hand to Judge. (John 5:22) Hence, God(Jesus) will Judge man in the last day. (refer to Deut 1:17)
The bible clearly states to Fear God, for the Hour of His Judgement has come. (Revelation 14:7) (Also see Revelation 19:1-2, Romans 14:10)
"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."(2 Tim. 4:1) (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."(2 Cor. 5:10, Joel 3:12)
God will dwell with man in new Jerusalem; the paradise Earth. (Revelation 21:3-7, Revelation 22:3-4)
Jesus was the word of God. Jesus was Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. The Lamb of God. The Prince. (Revelation 19:11-16) (Psalm 47:2, 1 Timothy 6:15)
Jesus is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning aand the End. Yes he had a beginning as a human being, and yes he was created as a human being, allowing him to be the only begotten Son of God; None-the-less, he existed in Spirit first, and was in the beginning with God, and if God Almighty had no beginning in Spirit(at least not one that we as human beings can comprehend), then it's likewise with Jesus Christ! Jesus was subject to a physical death, and not a spiritual death. Jesus is forevermore, eternal, always...(Revelation 22:13, John 17:5)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."(Isaiah 44:6)(Isaiah 48:12, Jeramiah 10:10)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me."(Isaiah 43:10)
"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."(Deut. 32:4) (2 Samuel 22:32, Deut. 7:9)
"...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."(1 Cor. 10
"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"(Isaiah 43:3) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)
"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."(Isaiah 45:21) (Deuteronomy 32:39, Titus 2:13, Isaiah 44:6)
Now my actual conclusion that I drew from scripture just blows me out of the water. In the book of Revelation, John clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is God! Read and learn, and you'll clearly see this. The bible interprets itself.
In Revelation 1:1, what does John say?
God sent the Revelation to John by way of his angel. (Revelation 1:1-2)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he(God) sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all the things he saw. (Revelation 1:1-2)
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
In Revelation 22:16, what does John recollect Jesus saying?
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16) (Revelation 2:8)
Was it God who sent the angel to John, or was it Jesus who sent the angel to John? Clearly there was only one angel who was sent to John to bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ! Clearly Jesus Christ and the Father are One. There is Only One God! Jesus Christ and the Father are that One God, and They are the same spirit in unity!
God is Love, and what greater Love can be given than to sacrifice his only begotten Son, himself, the Firstborn of God, God as Man, the Son of Man, his very own beloved creation. Then, he gave his life only to take it. Only God can have such power. (John 3:15-16)
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32 NIV)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. ( Luke 18:19)
Obviously, Jesus was referring to himself as God here!

reply to post by onehappyangel


onehappyangel:

Hello to you I just want to let you know that I read your post and love all the Scripture verses you chose. That kept the fingers busy!



Peace you you,
Grandma

reply to post by onehappyangel


If Jesus is God the Father, why did He pray to God the Father in the gospels? Jesus calls God His Father. They are not the same being. No man has seen God because God has no physicality to Him. Jesus is the "Son of God". my claim is that they co-existed together before creation. Jesus was the "Word of God" but not God Himself. God commanded and the Word spoke and created or spoke and declaired on behalf of the Father.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by onehappyangel

 

If Jesus is God the Father, why did He pray to God the Father in the gospels? Jesus calls God His Father. They are not the same being. No man has seen God because God has no physicality to Him. Jesus is the "Son of God". my claim is that they co-existed together before creation. Jesus was the "Word of God" but not God Himself. God commanded and the Word spoke and created or spoke and declaired on behalf of the Father.

That is correct they did co-exist before creation, there was no physical Universe only a spiritual plane of exsitance, time was created in essence when God created the spiritual being that we know as Jesus Christ, it is virtually the only marker we have for the beginning of time itself, as the Almighty existed for infinity before that. After Jesus was created he helped God create other spirit beings and the physical universe.

It has been theorized that Jesus Christ is about 15 billion years old, but he could be even older than that. That's because that places him just a little bit older than the universe itself.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I leave that to speculation. Did He already exist with God or was He created by God? Who knows? All I know is He existed before He became a human.

rev 3:[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

he was created

reply to post by miriam0566


I think you just proved to me that Jesus was created by God as the beginning of creation and time. I also believe now that Jesus was the only Thing which God actually created as the rest of creation was tasked by Jesus, the Word of God after being commanded by God. You said in another thread, I believe the trinitarian one, that God is the architect and Jesus is the builder or ironically, the CARPENTER! God Bless You MIRIAM! That is the problem with ATS/BTS.... no one is willing to admit mistakes or take in true info, even if it conflicts with what you did believe. I am here tipping my hat to you. Just don't get a big head over this. I still call b.s. on the 1914 theory.... just saying. At any rate, God bless you.

lol, thats i think the first time that has ever happened in my life.

dont worry locoman, we´ll always have the ¨who goes to heaven¨topic to disagree on

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Jesus pretty much established the fact that there was a God known as the Father. Before Jesus, there was the Ancient of Days, who received one who was like unto a son of man and he received power from Him. This was seen in vision by Daniel. Jesus called himself the son of man and God, he called his Father.
Paul says the Father delivered us from the power of darkness. Then God, the Father, transfers our citizenship from that power, over to a kingdom that belongs to the Son. It pleased the Father that within the Son, all completeness of God should exist, to the point that he should be the very Likeness of God, as a person, to be visible as such, to those of his kingdom.
Paul goes on to say that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven. That can not be meant in a literal way. Is Paul out of his mind, or is he talking in an expansive style. Can we extrapolate from that some better understanding of what Paul meant about Jesus being the first born of all creatures? Inside this kingdom that was established by the Father, Jesus is the first of those raised from the dead. We have to realize that Jesus was not the first, literally to have been raised. Elijah died and then was raised and taken to heaven in a chariot of fire. Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus himself. But Jesus was the first to be raised into this kingdom that was for him and was created by him, through his redemptive work as the man, and the son, on this earth.
We are reconciled by being incorporated into the fleshly body of Christ, as he died, to become free from sin. This reconciliation is not limited to us but is all inclusive, whether they be things seen or not seen, material or spiritual or even concepts of forces and principles.
What about what was said about the word, and how all things were created by him? God is eternal in that he has no beginning and no end. If this Word, who was god, became flesh by being born as a person, that being can not have a beginning. At no point was the Word not God, whether it was flesh at one point, or not. That flesh was Jesus and he has no end, so being eternal, he also has no definite point at which it did not exist. So, can this person fairly claim, as he did to John in Revelation, that he was the Alpha and the Omega? Well, then can we say that Jesus existed as the Son of God, even before Jesus was born? I think so.
All the way back to before creation, we have to think about what was going on within the mind of God. God did not want to make something that was just some sort of static thing that was nothing but an image that never did anything other than what He ordained ahead of time for it to do. God knew he had the potential to make a material universe and because He had that ability, He felt it was incumbent upon Himself to share an experience of living with someone outside himself. He wanted to create someone who would live in this material universe as a god, just as he was a god in the spiritual universe that He lived in. In order for this material person that he was to create, could be a fully functional god, the universe had to be made in such a way that was not set into a certain pattern that could not be deviated from, but one that could be affected by the will of this material person. And that person had to have free will in order to make the choices that would change his universe, even if that meant that there was a possibility of that free will creating the ultimate destruction of all creation.
Before God could go along with his plans for creation, He had to have another plan concerning what to do in the event of the worse case scenario. That plan was the plan of redemption. God knew that in order for the plan to be played out, it would take a sacrifice on His own part. That sacrifice was that he would have to offer His only begotten son to be handed over to the center of rebellion on this world that he put this material person into, and that he would die. So within a form of existence that we are only beginning to understand the working principles of, at the foundation of the world there was a slain lamb. This is the Lamb of God, who in principle existed through eternity, though in the normal line of time as can be looked at and measured, he had not been born. Could anything have been created without Jesus? Not in a universe that is created by a loving God.


[edit on 27-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

This is the Lamb of God, who in principle existed through eternity, though in the normal line of time as can be looked at and measured, he had not been born. Could anything have been created without Jesus? Not in a universe that is created by a loving God.

Sorry, I have to disagree with the existence in principle part, Jesus was the first born of all things spiritual and physical in the universe, he is literally the oldest spiritual being in the Universe that had a marked tangible beginning, before the creation of the Universe itself. Before all angels, before even 1 physical atom existed, he was there preparing to use the blueprint for all creation physical, spiritual and fleshly that his father gave him.

The point is Jesus existence came about, and he never existed before that.
So no past eternal existence, however he does have a future eternal existence.

I am not an expert on this but I have read about this, that back in the time the New Testament was written, they had a different concept of and way of describing eternity.
So the whole thing is rather imprecise, by our reckoning, today. I have no ability to set rules for what God can or can not do or be, so it is hard for me to set parameters inside which His behavior has to be restrained.
If you have it figured out, well good for you and you are a better man than me. If you do not a lot of rationall to back up your conclusion, you may want to ask yourself if you may have had some outside influence.
I am not prepared to quibble because this is just the point at which I have progressed in my attempt at gaining a degree of understanding. If you have an opinion that is truly your own, I can respect that because that may be what the Spirit tells you. But if it is a man who is telling you what to believe, you might want to look into that, for your own sake.
I do not get any personal satisfaction in thinking I am right and someone else is wrong. I realize I have limits and do not trust in my own human understanding. If God feels I should have a more sharply precise understanding, I am sure that He will send the Holy Spirit to guide me into that. Of course, that would involve reading the Bible and praying.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by onehappyangel

"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"(Isaiah 43:3) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)

1 John 4:14 (King James Version) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Two posts ago, I put up a rather large quote from Galatians concerning this. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. . . God is our savior, through the agency of the Son. Jesus was able to fail in his mission and could have continued on, without ever completing his mission but he did not fail. The fact that Jesus was successful makes him worthy of being glorified. He is to be uplifted and given to all mankind as a sign of our redemption but all glory belongs to the Father, from whom the Son came.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god.
When was the word begotten?
Never.
When did the word become flesh?
When Jesus was born.
When was the son of god begotten?
When the spirit of god overshadowed Mary.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god.
When was the word begotten?
Never.

in the beginning.

genesis 1:[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

since this particular passage does not specifically mention jesus' creation (see rev 3:14), likely ¨in the beginning¨is referring to the beginning of the creation of everything else sometime after the creation of jesus.

When did the word become flesh?
When Jesus was born.
When was the son of god begotten?
When the spirit of god overshadowed Mary.

logical fallacy.

jesus being born of mary was not the beginning of his existence.

to beget is 1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

jesus is god´s only begotten. this would imply that jesus is the only creation that is directly created by god. it would be impossible to claim that this happened with mary because it raises the question of how did god create jesus without anything else? and you cant say that jesus wasnt created because then jesus is a liar.

I thought you were right on the money Loco ...I agree with all you said ...

As far as what spy said about Jesus not wanting worship ....I believe that while he was in the flesh he certainly would not want man to worship him because he was flesh and blood and at the time (while in flesh) considered himself coequal with man ....if he would have allowed worship it would have sent a wrong messaqe that it was ok to worship a man ....which he says NOT TO DO >.
People would worship the AC then when he came then ...if Jesus would have allowed this worship of himself while he was a man ......

reply to post by miriam0566

jesus is god´s only begotten. this would imply that jesus is the only creation that is directly created by god. it would be impossible to claim that this happened with mary because it raises the question of how did god create jesus without anything else? and you cant say that jesus wasnt created because then jesus is a liar.

I really do not understand this.
I'm sorry but maybe I did not read your earlier explanation of this.
I might have missed some verses that you earlier quoted so I am not prepared to argue with you over this.
The only mention of anyone being begotten that I can think of is before Jesus was born. Did I miss some other begetting that happened earlier?

john 1: [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 john 4:[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Begotten means ONE AND ONLY OF HIS KIND >...


ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
1) single of its kind, only

a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)

b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
www.blueletterbible.org...