The pre-creation existence of Jesus

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

1. What does "New Testament" mean to you?

2. What does "New Testament" mean in the dictionary?

“This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

This is where Paul uses the phrase, new testament. Jesus is saying that he died for us, and to remember that, on a regular bases.

In the same way, he also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, every time you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

This is the part where this phrase comes in. Jesus is saying that it is his life that he gives, on our behalf, on which the new covenant is dependant.
Now take special notice of the next line.

For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Jesus is saying, I give you a promise, and my promise is true. This new thing is coming about and my actions I am about to undertake, are what is the surety for that promise. Keep this ever before your minds, to trust in this, that eventually what I have spent these years with you describing, will surely come. You must hold steadfast in your faith, that what I say is true. The Kingdom will come. People will be all good. I will be with you in that kingdom which will never end.

What?? That doesn't answer any of my questions. I'll help you out:

"The New Testament (Greek: Καινὴ Διαθήκη, Kainē Diathēkē) is the name given to the second major division of the Christian Bible, the first such division being the much longer Old Testament, both terms being associated with Supersessionism. The New Testament is sometimes called the Greek New Testament or Greek Scriptures, or the New Covenant or the New Law"

New Testament ~ Wikipedia

Or:

"Second of the two major divisions of the Christian Bible. Christians see the New Testament as the fulfillment of the promise of the Old Testament. It recounts the life and ministry of Jesus and interprets their meaning for the early church, focusing especially on the new covenant created between God and the followers of Jesus."

"New Testament" Encyclopedia Britannica

So what does "New Testament" mean??

I'll help you some more: NEW C_VENAN_
(Fill in the blanks)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

the ENTIRE debate you and i have been having is in regards to the ceremonial law, which Sabbath-keeping falls under.

The Sabbath was not ceremonial.

“You shall have no other gods before me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water below. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children to the third and fourth generations of those who reject me, and showing covenant faithfulness to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold guiltless anyone who takes his name in vain.
“Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy. For six days you may labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
“Honor your father and your mother, that you may live a long time in the land the Lord your God is giving to you.
“You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

What is ceremonial about the above quote?
I think you need to substantiate that claim, that the Sabbath is ceremonial.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Are you or I a Jew? the covenant of the Sabbath was made with the Jews. Requiring Gentiles to convert to the practices, customs, and special covenants of the Jews is called "Judaizing", EXACTLY what Paul's letter to the Galatians addressed.

We are Jews, inasmuch that we are grafted on to the tree, the one that originated with Abraham. The Sabbath was given forever, to be the sign that joins us to God, as being his people. This would have seemed so obvious to Paul that it should not have had to be a topic.
We have a sign, between us, and God, that he is our father. The sign does not save us, in itself, not any more than the blood of animals saved us, in times past. In the ten commandments, there are prohibitions against worshipping false gods, and then there is a commandment to worship the real god, and why he deserves to be worshipped, and how to identify that true god, and what to do in order to demonstrate that the god we are worshipping is the true god.
This is what makes it moral. Love God. That is the first and most important commandment. How do we demonstrate our love for God? To keep his commandments, and specifically this one, that identifies God and shows the nature of our relationship to Him.
Remember that Jesus has a father and he is also our father, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray to "our father". We are Jews, but not by our own doing. Jesus died to have the privilege of joining us into the covenant. As participants in a covenant, both parties have to agree with a certain demand. God saves us, and we wear the sign of His identity. We are still saved by the old covenant, but in a more inclusive manner for the sake of Jesus and in order to bring History to a close and to usher in the new kingdom where we will all be living under a new covenant.




[edit on 7-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60
"Ceremonial" Laws are the ones God commanded the Jews for HIS worship.Examples:

Sabbath keeping, blood sacrifice, Passover

"Moral" Laws are God's commandments to man not to defile himself or others. Examples:

Fornication, lying, stealing, coveting, hatred

heck, look up the term "ceremony".

"A ceremony is an activity, infused with ritual significance, performed on a special occasion."

Ceremony ~ Wikipedia

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

"Ceremonial" Laws are the ones God commanded the Jews for HIS worship.Examples:
Sabbath keeping, blood sacrifice, Passover
"Moral" Laws are God's commandments to man not to defile himself or others. Examples:
Fornication, lying, stealing, coveting, hatred
heck, look up the term "ceremony".
"A ceremony is an activity, infused with ritual significance, performed on a special occasion."

So, according to you, there is no moral dimension pertaining to God, and no obligation towards God, whatsoever?
Do you see what you end up with, once you discard the Sabbath? No god but yourself.

[edit on 7-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

We are Jews, inasmuch that we are grafted on to the tree, the one that originated with Abraham. The Sabbath was given forever, to be the sign that joins us to God, as being his people. This would have seemed so obvious to Paul that it should not have had to be a topic.

But it was a topic, the ENTIRE letter to the Galatians addresses the issue of Judaizing Christians. Paul even rebukes Peter for doing so. Do you think Galatians, Hebrews, and Romans are false doctrines and should be removed from the New Testament? (NEW COVENANT)

We have a sign, between us, and God, that he is our father. The sign does not save us, in itself, not any more than the blood of animals saved us, in times past. In the ten commandments, there are prohibitions against worshipping false gods, and then there is a commandment to worship the real god, and why he deserves to be worshipped, and how to identify that true god, and what to do in order to demonstrate that the god we are worshipping is the true god.

I worship God 7 days a week my friend, in Spirit. And I keep every moral law required of me throughout the New Testament. Jesus gave 2 commandments which he said "ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS" hinge upon: 1. Love God with all your heart, body, and mind and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Remember that Jesus has a father and he is also our father, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray to "our father". We are Jews, but not by our own doing. Jesus died to have the privilege of joining us into the covenant. As participants in a covenant, both parties have to agree with a certain demand.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 is a prophecy saying the Old Covenant will pass away and God will have a new covenant with man. Hebrews 8:12-13 confirms the prophecy in Jeremiah as coming to pass. Want to know what God the Father has to say about the Jews and Judaism since the death of Christ?? Read Revelation 2:9 and 3:9:

God the Father speaking to Jesus Christ His only begotten Son:

Revelation 2:9 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelation 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

That is what the Father thinks of the Jews today and since their rejection and murder of their Messiah.

God saves us, and we wear the sign of His identity. We are still saved by the old covenant, but in a more inclusive manner for the sake of Jesus and in order to bring History to a close and to usher in the new kingdom where we will all be living under a new covenant.

The Old Covenant saved NO MAN, the Old Covenant was given to man to CONDEMN him and lead him to seek a savior. (Hello dude, again read Romans, Hebrews, and Galatians, Paul says EXACTLY the same thing)

"will all be" no, the New Covenant was confirmed to have begun in Hebrews 8:12-13, we have been living in a New Covenant with God for 2,000 years now.

New Testament MEANS NEW COVENANT




:bnghd:

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Ahh heck with it, to ANYONE interested in the heresies of the SDA church and their founder Ellen G. White:

FOLLOW PAUL TO CHRIST, NOT MOSES OR ELLEN G. WHITE!!!!

If you lived in Florida and went around to various SDA churches, you would find that the general congregational makeup would be about 90% non-white, and most of them are from other countries, or at least their parents were. If you went around and asked people in these churches what they thought of Ellen White, probably half of them would say, "Never heard of her." The other half would probably say something like, "I have heard of her but I am not all that familiar with her writings and I do not see how she is especially important to what I believe in, which is God, and His Son, Jesus Christ."

[edit on 7-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

"Ceremonial" Laws are the ones God commanded the Jews for HIS worship.Examples:
Sabbath keeping, blood sacrifice, Passover
"Moral" Laws are God's commandments to man not to defile himself or others. Examples:
Fornication, lying, stealing, coveting, hatred
heck, look up the term "ceremony".
"A ceremony is an activity, infused with ritual significance, performed on a special occasion."

So, according to you, there is no moral dimension pertaining to God, and no obligation towards God, whatsoever?
Do you see what you end up with, once you discard the Sabbath? No god but yourself.

I never once said that. From ACTS through Revelation we are given our moral obligation to follow concerning God.

I have already posted it, but heck whats one more time???:


Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Is "Sabbath keeping" on that list? Nope, it's a ceremonial law under the Old Covenant. Do I need to provide a definition of "ceremony" again?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Suppression of her plagiarism and failed prophecies doesn't alter the fact that your church was founded upon them.

Sorry. Reject these false doctrines, "doctrines of men" that we are told to avoid.

What do you learn when you read Galatians?

reply to post by NOTurTypical
Well, it doesn't really say that.
So, God hates Jews?
That explains a lot.

because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of joy with your presence.’
“Brothers, I can speak confidently to you about our forefather David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay. This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it. So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’
Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”

Isn't Peter, here, proclaiming Jesus as the King of the Jews?





[edit on 7-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Is "Sabbath keeping" on that list?

No, because these are things not to do.
So, as long as you avoid doing evil things, there really is no such thing as an actual physical manifestation of the keeping of the foremost law, to love God?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Suppression of her plagiarism and failed prophecies doesn't alter the fact that your church was founded upon them.

You might want to read her writings, instead of just propaganda on a web site by someone who is a hater.
I have been a SDA all my life and I have never found any sort of evidence that what she saw in vision was ever copied from another source. I would love to see some of that, but it is yet to ever be produced.
So, learn what you are talking about before you continue on blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So, because Jesus was a Jew, we shouldn't follow His every example? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the bible said to live exactly like Jesus. To follow His footsteps. He kept the Sabbath. His apostles kept the sabbath. The first century church kept the sabbath. Enough said. I already showed you that Paul kept the sabbath between Jew and Greek.... not just jews. "in your dwellings" does not mean you are bound inside your house. It means to keep the sabbath where you are. 1000 paces on the sabbath was added by the Jews as a burden to the law... not part of God's original law. Jesus came to show the Jews how wrong they were upholding the law of the sabbath. I don't understand how you don't see this. And your little list of things NOT to do... notice it doesn't mention "Love God, Keep the Sabbath, Honor your mother and father.... etc. Does this mean those commandments were done away with? No, just as JM said, those were things to refrain from. The sabbath was not a big issue in the NT as far as "reconfirming" the practice of it because it was widely understood and the apostles taught from the OT... Just as Jesus did.

Believe what you want JM, it's not China yet. I don't care anymore. If you want to live under the Old Covenant be my guest.

reply to post by Locoman8


You also, I don't care anymore, if you want to live under the Old Covenant be my guest.

Neither one of you will tell me what Galatians says to you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Galatians says what the rest of Paul's letters say and it talks about the carnal state of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is to be written in our hearts and minds. This does not give us extra freedom from the laws, it gives more responsibilities to us for following these laws. How about what Peter said?

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.


So, be careful to read exactly what Paul said. Research the setting. Research the time. Research the environment. And for the sake of interpretation error, don't use the commentary of a study bible or protestant preacher. that's how you end up confusing "willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord." Read my comment to you on the "hell" thread.

reply to post by Locoman8


Does Hebrews 8:12-13 say the Old Covenant has ended or does it say it's still in effect?

Does Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretell a time in the future when the Old Covenant will pass away?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The new covenant replaced the Old Covenant but didn't completely demolish the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is an extention.... a revision of the Old Covenant. It uses the new gift of the Holy Spirit that was only given to specific people in the OT. Goodnight. I gotta go to sleep now.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The new covenant replaced the Old Covenant but didn't completely demolish the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is an extention.... a revision of the Old Covenant. It uses the new gift of the Holy Spirit that was only given to specific people in the OT. Goodnight. I gotta go to sleep now.

You're wrong, Hebrews 8:12-13 says plainly that the Old "vanishes away".

If you want to read the only commandment Jesus gave to the Christians to follow it's in the 15th chapter of John.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Believe what you want JM, it's not China yet. I don't care anymore. If you want to live under the Old Covenant be my guest.

The Old Covenant was: I will be your God, and you will be my people.
Jesus brings everyone who will, into that family of God.
The Sabbath is the symbol of the covenant that binds us to the Creator.
The blood of Jesus is the surety of that covenant, and what brings us into it. The New Covenant takes affect in his kingdom, and while that is yet to come, there remains for us a Sabbath rest.
The Old Covenant brings us into the New Covenant and it was Christs perfect priesthood working though the Old, typified in the ceremonial law of Moses but originating in the Abrahamic covenant, that makes our place in it sure, that we have by faith in that blood.