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The pre-creation existence of Jesus

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posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
This is actually quite good.

Jesus is of God but not God. Right now i regret that i dont know the Bible to well.

But there is a telling in the Bible that is about Jesus and the people. Where the people bow down to worship Jesus or something like that. But Jesus then tells them not to worship him But God. If that is so. How can we say the Jesus is God! Even Jesus prayed to God.


the word ¨god¨is a title. not a name. it literally means ¨mighty one¨. ¨mighty one¨ could apply to alot of people.

here the thing too, just because person is called ¨god¨ doesnt mean they deserve worship.

for example-

2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

this passage is obviously talking about satan referring to him as the ¨god of this world¨. however we know we arent suppose to worship him. jesus was asked to and he refused replying ¨it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.¨

so jesus being a god doesnt imply that he deserves worship.


The only difference is that We chose to live in sin.


actually we didnt. it was never a choice for us, we were born into this. its unfair and god knows it, which is why he provided the ransom.




posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I don't look at it as us disagreeing in the slightest sense. The translation you "called out" as the worse for that verse in Phillipians, I couldn't agree more but was the translation used in the article I quoted. I think that translation was used for the context. If Jesus had been in the image of God and became flesh, His Godly attributes are gone meaning He is no longer equal to God the Father but merely a servant. I'm not saying He wasn't serving the Father from the getgo. He did, after all, create all things on behalf of God which was a service to God by the Word of God. Of course Jesus is a lesser of the Father but as you have said before, they harmonize as One. I don't believe in the trinity either. The holy spirit is nothing more than the power of God or essence of God. God and Jesus are the only two in the Godhead as we speak and they were the only two from the beginning. The plan is for mankind to join in the "Family of God" which is why Jesus came in the flesh... to save mankind from sin and invite us to be part of God's family. Before becoming flesh, the Word was equal with God yet still a mere servant of God the Father. Equality in attribute and power but the Father still greater than the Son. I think our only true disagreement is on the idea of weather Jesus was created or always existed. Your "translation" thread has a reply by me stating that Jesus may have been the first of creation.... but I did not say I believe that one way or the other. Honestly, this point is not very important. The thread was made here in order to get people to think. The bible is clear that Jesus did exist prior to the creation of the heavens and earth.... seeing that He was the Creator of these things. That's why I titled it "The pre-creation existence of Jesus" because He did create all things on behalf of the Father.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 02:29 AM
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To OmegaLogos from the OP, I don't care about your disclaimers or all the other excess junk stated before your messages. Half the time, I can't understand what you write because of your lack of proper grammar. You talk about denying ignorance yet the BTS slogan is to "deny boredom" and all I got from your message was boredom. How can you sit there at your little computer and type up such a waste of thread space to basically say all you needed to say in "all I believe in is the books of Moses".... the end. Instead you went through this long spill about how all of the new testament is wrong and how all but the Torah of the old testament is false but you really have no more hard evidence than any one of us "christians". My argument involves the New and Old Testaments and if you don't believe in 34 of the OT books or any of the NT books, how can we discuss the topic at hand? If you don't believe in Jesus, so be it but my post was meant for Jesus believeing christians, weather they believe in my post or not. Miriam is a good example. She opposes some of my stuff and puts up a good fight in doing so but you have come here and flat-out offend me and other christians here with your rhetoric. Deny Ignorance? I thing you're being more ignorant than I. I did have respect for you until these posts of yours. You can disagree with me but to put someone down for their beliefs, weather I claim it to be the truth or not, is ignorant in itself. My claim for it being true is based on old and new testament scripture for those who believe the Holy Bible is God's written truth. That means if you don't believe in the NT or 90% of the OT, this thread is not here for you to blow out of proportion. Find a thread or start a thread to debunk the NT and most of the OT... That's all and good day to you.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by spy66
This is actually quite good.

Jesus is of God but not God. Right now i regret that i dont know the Bible to well.

But there is a telling in the Bible that is about Jesus and the people. Where the people bow down to worship Jesus or something like that. But Jesus then tells them not to worship him But God. If that is so. How can we say the Jesus is God! Even Jesus prayed to God.


the word ¨god¨is a title. not a name. it literally means ¨mighty one¨. ¨mighty one¨ could apply to alot of people.

here the thing too, just because person is called ¨god¨ doesnt mean they deserve worship.

for example-

2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

this passage is obviously talking about satan referring to him as the ¨god of this world¨. however we know we arent suppose to worship him. jesus was asked to and he refused replying ¨it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.¨

so jesus being a god doesnt imply that he deserves worship.


The only difference is that We chose to live in sin.


actually we didnt. it was never a choice for us, we were born into this. its unfair and god knows it, which is why he provided the ransom.



Yes your right i have to re do that thought hehehe
But i am going to get it right some day


If you help



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 04:49 PM
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did you get the pm i sent you?

sorry for the one liner



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Yes i did
Thanks

I am still thinking about that reply. I have to read it and then think about it and then look at it again lol.

It was a bit different answer then i had expected. But you will hear from me



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT Personal Disclosure:
:shk:


Explanation: 1stly you state and I quote "To OmegaLogos from the OP, I don't care about your disclaimers or all the other excess junk stated before your messages."...Well then please don't squeal and whine when you completely IGNORE it and I show you up on this OK.


For example ... and again I quote you "How can you sit there at your little computer and type up such a waste of thread space to basically say all you needed to say in "all I believe in is the books of Moses".... the end.".

Guess what? IT'S SHOWTIME!!!
and I quote my DISCLAIMER " I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths." with bold for emphasis! Now as to wasted thread space I note that I have yet to be "mod'ed" [
]
as to being "off topic" and please provide some evidence to back up your A PRIORI claims that you make about my post/s.

2ndly you state and I quote "Half the time, I can't understand what you write because of your lack of proper grammar."...How nice of you to Ad Hominen me. Here is
a helping hand to help translate my posts ....freedictionary.com.


3rdly you state and I quote "You talk about denying ignorance yet the BTS slogan is to "deny boredom" and all I got from your message was boredom."...All you got was boredom you say. Hmmmm! Well methinks that some (already one) posters may find what I posted to be and I quote "OmegaLogos WoW. You sure have thought a lot about this stuff. I enjoyed reading it. A lot of good pionts i can think about
" i.e. to be Denying their Boredom! Care to refute? Also your post clearly proves your boredom was DENIED because something I posted sure stirred you to post your curt reply to me where you just fob off my post without answering ANY of the questions I asked. If you were that bored then why reply to me at all. There is an ignore button FYI. :shk:

4th you state and I quote "Instead you went through this long spill about how all of the new testament is wrong and how all but the Torah of the old testament is false but you really have no more hard evidence than any one of us "christians". My argument involves the New and Old Testaments and if you don't believe in 34 of the OT books or any of the NT books, how can we discuss the topic at hand? If you don't believe in Jesus, so be it but my post was meant for Jesus believeing christians, weather they believe in my post or not.".....No more hard evidence?
I've barely got started !
Do you really want me to debunk Moses and the Torah as well and leave you YHVH worshipers NO LEG TO STAND ON? Because I have BOTH scriptural evidence (ie. the Torah vs the Torah) and historic evidence (i.e. the Torah vs Science ). Please give me a green light on this and I'll gladly debunk away as best I can. Also my argument also involved the NT and the OT and I note that the OP only used 1 OT scripture (twice!) and that was Gen 1:1 and the rest of the time the OP uses NT scripture from various versions of the bible, where as I use a slightly more balanced approach and use many of the same scriptures posted in the OP (therefor 90%+ NT) and balance that out with scripture from YOUR very own bibles OT (It's not just me promoting this view as YOUR bibles back me up), specifically the Torah! Also you jump the gun and judge me prematurely as I do believe in Jesus, just not as how the OP promotes him. I note that the only thing in the OP that comes close to what you state in that final sentence I quote above is and I quote "I would love to get some opinions because I know there are trinitarian believers and this article disagrees with the trinity." ...and yes it [the booklet the OP quotes from] does disagree with the trinity, but it completely goes against Unitarianism i.e. A Monotheistic (singular) GOD (YHVH) and since the OP doesn't directly exclude me (either personally or directly as a non-Abrahamic theist) from denying both boredom and ignorance concerning its PRIMA FACIE arguments , I posted with a clean conscience where as you are ONLY just now revealing more parameters ( i.e. Christian thread only and trinitarian at that!) some 20 posts later.
:shk:


5th You state and I quote "Miriam is a good example. She opposes some of my stuff and puts up a good fight in doing so but you have come here and flat-out offend me and other christians here with your rhetoric."...miriam0566
is a brilliant poster and argues her points with me with passion and vigor so we agree on this 100%. As to flat out offending anybody, that would be up to the Mod's [
] to decide whether I have inappropriately flamed or harmed anybody and my post would then be obviously replaced by the appropriate "decorum and manners" banner!. If you have such a problem with me or my post, I suggest involving a mod to resolve these issues! Also I would like these other Christians to please speak up for themselves, especially since you seem to be the 1st person who has either publicly had a problem with me and my post in this thread! Got anybody to back you up?

6th You state and I quote "Deny Ignorance? I thing you're being more ignorant than I."...I'll leave that to the Mod's and other posters to decide that!

Continued next post below....



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 
Continued from above post...


7th you state and I quote "I did have respect for you until these posts of yours. You can disagree with me but to put someone down for their beliefs, weather I claim it to be the truth or not, is ignorant in itself."...Respect? What as? A friend or a foe? I notice your not mentioned at all on my profile and only 2 people have MADE ME their friend/foe, whereas I am still new and the best friend I have so far is MatrixProphet and even she isn't listed as a respected friend or foe of mine. [No disrespect meant at all to miriam0566 as she comes a very close second
] Thanks for the last minute heads up about that, just as you cast me off into that lake of fire.

Also accurately identifying (i.e. calling someone) a hypocrite (basically what my personal disclosure goes directly to and you refer to as putting someone down for their beliefs) is only offensive to the hypocrite because they know what I stated was "Calling a spade a spade!" where as they have decided to "keep shoveling expletive deleted"! Yes it's a character assassination and yet it is ALSO VERY APT! Care to refute?

8th you state and I quote "My claim for it being true is based on old and new testament scripture for those who believe the Holy Bible is God's written truth."...Well My claim for it (i.e. my post) being true is based on old and new testament scripture for those who believe the Holy Bible is God's written truth, and it points in a direction 180 degrees opposed to whats laid out in the OP! Care to refute?

9th and finally you state and again I quote "That means if you don't believe in the NT or 90% of the OT, this thread is not here for you to blow out of proportion. Find a thread or start a thread to debunk the NT and most of the OT... That's all and good day to you."....Well clearly you failed to READ my disclaimer and this Thread here! which I will quote the Topic from as obviously you missed it when vetting my post! "Have All 3 Abrahamic Faiths Conspired to Defraud the Torah?"....None are so blind as they who will not see! ( Yes another APT character assassination...care to refute it?). As to blowing the thread out of proportion...Maybe if you had placed a line in your OP to that effect then this problem of yours just might of been avoided completely as I would have respected that caveat. :shk:

Personal Disclosure: I answered your question and I quote "Any thoughts on this?"...How about some REAL RESPECT from you by actually answering some of mine. Those character assassination boxes exist as actual states of being beyond my semantic construction of them....if you go put yourself in any of those boxes without any help from me then you only have yourself to blame! Care to refute?

P.S. If I am WRONG and PROVEN as such then I will apologize for promoting ignorance and make a public retraction unreservedly! Does the OP agree to the same conditions? Care to disclose?

P.P.S. I am quite willing to argue the OP's position on this from the POV of a trinitarian Christian by scripturally arguing the physical embodiment of the holy spirit using any bible version you choose (by primarily using the NT!). Even though I am not a trinitarian Christian I am quite familiar with its ideology and as such I can mimic its ideological POV quite rapidly and accurately. Or I could argue in total support of the OP's position. I'm here to debate the issue within the threads CLEARLY STATED PARAMETERS, not to derail the thread! Moving the goal posts after the game starts I think would constitute a FOUL! Looks like those goal posts just narrowed quite considerably!!!
:shk:



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by OmegaLogos
I've barely got started !
Do you really want me to debunk Moses and the Torah as well and leave you YHVH worshipers NO LEG TO STAND ON? Because I have BOTH scriptural evidence (ie. the Torah vs the Torah) and historic evidence (i.e. the Torah vs Science ). Please give me a green light on this and I'll gladly debunk away as best I can.


i wouldnt mind seeing your debunk (in its own thread of course)



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


i do have to say this. im not sure if you meant it or not, but your last post was alittle... aggressive. in fact i believe it was the first time ive seen a post like that from you.

i just assumed that you and locoman had a history.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Thanks for the heads up on this because yes its very true that I felt very aggressive when I posted [even after sleeping on it :shk: ] and this should of been a clear warning to me to maybe like stop...yes thats it just simply stop and let it be.

Personal Disclosure: I apologize unreservedly for being a total jerk to both Locoman8 and to all the posters of this thread. To Locoman8 Peace mate, sorry I was on fire and used you as the fuel and you've done nothing to deserve that kind of roasting. Please find it within yourself to forgive me.
You too miriam0566, if I have offended you in any way I unreservedly apologize.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


Well, after reading your heated reply and then apologizing, I will say that I apologize to you too. My reaction to your first post was over-the-top and I am sorry for what I said. I felt that it came on a little strong. I have had discussions with you in the past and we seemed to be pretty good friends in some of these threads. On in particular I can recall by whitesatan and his thread "God is Fake".... now you wanna talk about an ignorant person, whitesatan is it. Anyways, I think we can make peace here. I think I was more confused than anything with your posts because it's kinda hard to know what you believe in personally. I know you're an educated person and can argue one side or the other but I personally wanna know your side or opinion. I think you asked be earlier about what bible version I use and I will tell you that it's the New King James Version (NKJV). That article simply used various versions and I sorta get that. Some versions explain better or are written better and trust me, the source of this article checks the proper translations from greek and hebrew. I also understand that this post kind of goes against monotheism which I do believe in, but I guess it's the notion of what God is that makes Him a monotheistic diety. I explain this point in another thread about the "Godhead" or "Family of God" in which God the Father is head of the family, Jesus the Son/Word of God is at His right hand with equal authority but a lesser to the Father and mankind as the children of God. My argument was basically using the fact that the word "God" in Gen. 1:1 or durring the creation in Genesis is a plural form of "God" (Elohim) used in a singular way. Then God mentions, "Let US make man in OUR image". Who is He talking to? I'm not saying to agree, just that there's evidence showing more than one being at creation. The NT leans to the notion that Jesus was the creator of all things and you only need to reference some of my previous posts before our argument to see the verses. So, taking the bible as a whole with no opinion on falseness but simply on what the Holy Scripture says, I came to the conclusion that Jesus and God were together in existence before creation. Feel free to comment back and once again, I apologize and accept yoru apology at the same time. And you are right... miriam is cool. You know she was born on the same day my wife was?



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
You know she was born on the same day my wife was?


im sorry.. but its a guess. im not actually sure when i was born.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I'm just going by what your profile said. Miriam, I am growing more and more fond of you. It seems that with small hints here and there, you sort of paint a picture of someone with a very difficult past who found her way to God and changed life for the better. I'd like to get to know you better and I'd share my story with you too if you would like to U2U. Your choice. I've already added you as a friend, a good while back and wish you'd do the same for me. Well, God bless you and hope you'll take my offer on u2u.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:40 AM
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anyone is free to send me u2u´s for any reason. dont need my permission



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: I unreservedly accept your UPFRONT Honesty and integrity and especially your apology and I also thank you for accepting mine.[although I personally don't believe you should not of had to apologize at all as I was in the wrong and NOT YOU OK! [explained why below!]]

I respect you greatly and I'm sorry I went so hard core...you are correct that the motto of belowtopsecret is DENY BOREDOM and as such, such a go for the jugular attack was completely unwarranted for this side of the ATS/BTS forum and I should of been more aware and stayed more on topic in line with that motto! COMPLETELY MY BAD!, and as such your apology [MUCH RESPECTED BY ME I MIGHT ADD!!!] is unnecessary as NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO APOLOGIZE IF THEY ARE NOT WRONG! It was your thread and I stumbled around like a bull in a china shop :shk: and you mod'ed me more than appropriately, because people who show disrespect deserve nothing less themselves.


Personal Disclosure: I will u2u my core personal beliefs very soon. I am very sorry for this late reply but I got stuck reading more than a couple of about 50 page long threads elsewhere on ATS/BTS [Note I used this situation to debunk somebody who said people just aren't forgiving during that time so thanks heaps for that Find that post HERE!].



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Oop's me even more of a
EDIT for above post of mine.

If you REMOVE the word "not" from "although I personally don't believe you should not of had to apologize at all as I was in the wrong and NOT YOU OK!"...... then it makes the sense I'm trying to impart!

Personal Disclosure: :shk: Sorry! Sigh.



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 02:18 AM
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lol, im sure he understood.

my finger points. i had too sorry, didnt want to get hit with the one liner



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 08:24 AM
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I personally definitely consider Jesus separate from god, I think that some Christians just say he was god in the flesh to avoid breaking the first commandment.

It's really one's opinion though, there are plenty of people on every side who claim he was god, or he was the actual son of god, or that they are separate but one in spirit, or that he was just a man who preached the good word.

Those translations are a curse though eh. I mean there LITERALLY is no such thing as Jesus or God, Jesus was actually Yeshua and God was actually YHWH. It was just a mistransliteration, Im sure the ancestors spelled them Jeshua and JHWH and such. In most northern languages the J is pronounced like english Y (im sure Spy knows this
) and upon reading this the english scholars chose to write them Jesus and Jehovah!



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


Dude, you're starting to confuse me some more. Let's just leave it at.... "we're cool", and get on with the thread. Thank you for your extremely formal apology, and yes, you deserved one from me too because as a christian I need to refrain from the negative reactions in times of anger. So, like I said, we're cool. God bless you.



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