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The pre-creation existence of Jesus

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posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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John 1:1 is like the energizing bunny for debate it keeps going and going and going....

Anyways context sometimes helps

John 1:1-2,14,18 ISV

1In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God...14The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son...18No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.


Here are the conflicts.

1) You can't be with that person and be that person.
2) You can't be both the Father and the Son at the same time.
3) No fleshly humans have seen God, yet they looked at Jesus.
4) Strongs #2316 (Theos) can read either "God" or "a god". What you use is defined by a bias of a previous held belief.

Questions
Who is this unique God by his father's side?
Why do many bibles use "only begotten Son" in verse 18 instead of God?
Is the unique Son=unique God?


[edit on 30-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]




posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Did Jesus say the law would be destroyed?
So the earthquakes and the appearing of Jesus as judge, to separate the sheep from the goats, all that has been fulfilled? We are now living in the wonderful direct kingship of Christ, in the New Jerusalem, and all pain has been forever removed?


Yes He did, He said it would only be destroyed when it be fulfilled. And not a second earlier. It can only be abolished once it be completely fulfilled, and He came to what??

He said He came to FULFILL the Law.

So naturally, what do you think happened at the moment He died thus fulfilling the Law in it's entirety with His death penalty for sin?

Have you read Romans yet? It's impossible for man to be in a new covenant with God if the old covenant is still in effect.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretold this as happening, Hebrews 8:12-13 confirmed this as being done.

You can continue to live your life as if there is no new covenant with man from God, I won't. If you want to live as if the new covenant is of none effect, then you're also by default saying that the life and death of Christ is also of none effect.






He also said "Heaven and Earth will pass away" in reference to all things being fulfilled. Not all is fulfilled until the New Heaven and New earth come about after the 1000 year peace before Judgement. Also, in reference to the laws on mt. sinai being called the "mosaic laws"... the Ten Commandments were considered God's "Spiritual Laws". Read the epistles of John my friend. John tells us to keep the commandments. Revelation says the faithful have kept the commandments and testimony of Jesus Christ. The sabbath is one of those commandments.



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


No he didn't, that's misconstruing what the Lord said, he said to paraphrase "unless the law be fulfilled heaven and Earth shall pass away before it be destroyed.. and I have come to fulfill the Law in order that it be destroyed...."

Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretold this new covenant with mankind, and Hebrews 8:12-13 confirms this as happening.

Old Testament = Old Covenant

New Testament = New Covenant

"testament" means "covenant"

"The Greek word (pronounced) dee-ath-ay-kay means a disposition, the act or means of disposing of something, as in a will. It is variously translated as either "covenant" or "testament," which is interesting because they differ in meaning in English usage i.e. covenant means "a written agreement between two or more parties to perform some action" while testament means "a legal document declaring a person's wishes regarding the disposal of their property when they die." While the Greek word is closer in meaning to the English word "testament," the Biblical usage of it blends "covenant" and "testament" in a way that the full Scriptural meaning is only made clear by the use of both."

Source



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8


He also said "Heaven and Earth will pass away" in reference to all things being fulfilled. Not all is fulfilled until the New Heaven and New earth come about after the 1000 year peace before Judgement. Also, in reference to the laws on mt. sinai being called the "mosaic laws"... the Ten Commandments were considered God's "Spiritual Laws". Read the epistles of John my friend. John tells us to keep the commandments. Revelation says the faithful have kept the commandments and testimony of Jesus Christ. The sabbath is one of those commandments.


Locoman,

Is it not possible that "heaven and earth" passing away is figurative and not literal?

Since the topic is the passing of the Law, and that Law was given by prophets of God how then did these prophets within Scripture define and use words such as "heaven" and "earth"?

What if Israel is at the center here, along with Moses and the Mosaic covenant and this "heaven" and "earth" are symbolic of an establishment and government?



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 
I wouldn't justify their line of thinking when the verse is clear.

Jesus said basically:

"not a single jot or tittle will be destroyed from the Old Covenant from this point until the end of everything you know until the entire Law be fulfilled... And I didn't come to destroy it without someone fulfilling it first, i came precisely to fulfill the entire Law and God will make a New Covenant with man."

Read the verse from the standpoint of my paraphrase:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:18 doesn't end with "law". There is a comma (,) then He continues "till ALL BE FULFILLED."

Romans and Hebrews are clear that man is no longer justified to God by the Mosaic Law, that justification is through grace. And what brings this saving grace from god is believing in Christ and confessing with one's mouth.

And Jesus gave only 2 commandments for the New Covenant: 1. Love God with everything you have within you, and Love your neighbor as yourself. He also says that the original Law with it's 619 commandments fit within His 2 new ones, that by following 2 simple commandments all the original 619 would be fulfilled.

Precisely why Jesus said: "My yoke is EASY, and my burden is LIGHT." (Matt. 11:30)

2 commandments is vastly easier than 619 of them from the Old Covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretold this time when the Old Covenant would no longer exist with man, and Hebrews 8:12-13 confirmed it being accomplished with the life and death of Jesus Christ.



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretold this time when the Old Covenant would no longer exist with man, and Hebrews 8:12-13 confirmed it being accomplished with the life and death of Jesus Christ.
First, I should say that I am not trying to be mean to you, nor am I just grasping at straws, in order to make an argument.
Sadly, the situation described by Jeremiah does not currently exist. I realize that what I am saying is pure anathema to every Christian in the world, but that is all I can figure about your last post.
Paul is not a liar, otherwise all Christian theology is down the tubes. God is right. God's word is sure, but people are fallible (meaning us). Paul often speaks as if Jesus was returning in his lifetime, or at least in the lifetime of those he was speaking to. Paul also speaks of all the Jews being converted. The sad fact is that none of those things happened.
The Jews did not convert. Israel is not secure in their homeland. The world did not end. Jesus didn't return. People still need to be told about God. And God's law was not written in the hearts of men. Paul saw the covenant waxing old, but he also saw Jesus coming in the clouds. You might want to read Hebrews again. We passed through the Red Sea but we got delayed on our entrance into the promised land, so there remains a sabbath rest.


[edit on 31-10-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Paul is not a liar


Then why do you say he is when you reject Paul saying the Old Covenant is dead?

Hebrews 8 (written by PAUL)

"Hebrews 8

1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (Jeremiah 31:31-33)

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
.
"

Why do you want to put Christ back up on the cross?? Why do you want to be still justified by the Mosaic Law????

And Paul CONSTANTLY was tormented with the fact that the Jews rejected Christ. He even said he wished he could go to Hell for eternity if it means his fellow Jews could be saved who rejected the atonement of Christ on the cross.

"That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
Romans 9:2-6


Sorry J, but it seems like I'm debating a man who has never once read Romans or Hebrews. Everything you claim is refuted outright by Paul in Romans and Hebrews. You say "Paul isn't a liar", but turn around and say everything he said in both these books is NOT TRUE.??????

Makes zero sense my friend.

Read Romans... then read Hebrews. And then just simply follow the Lord alone, we are now under the covenant of GRACE, the Mosaic Law passed away when Christ was nailed to the cross. We are under a New Covenant now, the covenant of grace.

Just read Romans, please.



posted on Nov, 1 2009 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Sorry J, but it seems like I'm debating a man who has never once read Romans or Hebrews. Everything you claim is refuted outright by Paul in Romans and Hebrews. You say "Paul isn't a liar", but turn around and say everything he said in both these books is NOT TRUE.??????

Makes zero sense my friend.
The tabernacle, the tent, the high priest, that was what was going on, when Hebrews was written.
You can't see that is all Old Covenant terminology?
What's new about it? Jesus is the High Priest. That's what is different. But the high priest of what? The covenant!
When every person who is left alive on Earth, in the Kingdom are holy and pure, then those prophecies will be fulfilled.
Then the law will be no more because Paul says the law was added because of transgression. When every person is sinless, then there will no longer be a need for a law.
Excuse me, but I can tell you for a fact that I am still sinning and am not righteous before the Law. So, the prophecies are fulfilled in that the surety for the future is made fast. But the execution of the plan is still in the functioning mode. So keep the law, or at least recognize that there is a law, which might be the best we can do right now.



[edit on 1-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 1 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Wow, READ Hebrews 8... AGAIN, Paul is speaking of the TABERACLE in HEAVEN not on Earth, the one the Lord pitched, "NOT BY MEN"...

Read. i put these verses up for a REASON, it's not a hodge-podge mixture of letters strung together for absolutely no purpose whatsoever, they are "Bible verses", that shoot down your vision of Christianity.

Read Romans, Read Hebrews.

Have you even read these books?? Either you have read them and you think Paul was lying in both books, or you haven't read them once and are completely unaware of what Paul says. (And Peter, and James...)

Practice Judaism if you want to, not me, I was redeemed by the Lord.



posted on Nov, 1 2009 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



1. What does "New Testament" mean to you?

2. What does "New Testament" mean in the dictionary?



posted on Nov, 1 2009 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



1. What does "New Testament" mean to you?

2. What does "New Testament" mean in the dictionary?

“This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
This is where Paul uses the phrase, new testament. Jesus is saying that he died for us, and to remember that, on a regular bases.

In the same way, he also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, every time you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
This is the part where this phrase comes in. Jesus is saying that it is his life that he gives, on our behalf, on which the new covenant is dependant.
Now take special notice of the next line.

For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
Jesus is saying, I give you a promise, and my promise is true. This new thing is coming about and my actions I am about to undertake, are what is the surety for that promise. Keep this ever before your minds, to trust in this, that eventually what I have spent these years with you describing, will surely come. You must hold steadfast in your faith, that what I say is true. The Kingdom will come. People will be all good. I will be with you in that kingdom which will never end.


[edit on 1-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 1 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Wow, READ Hebrews 8... AGAIN, Paul is speaking of the TABERACLE in HEAVEN not on Earth, the one the Lord pitched, "NOT BY MEN"...

Read. i put these verses up for a REASON, it's not a hodge-podge mixture of letters strung together for absolutely no purpose whatsoever, they are "Bible verses", that shoot down your vision of Christianity.

Read Romans, Read Hebrews.

Have you even read these books?? Either you have read them and you think Paul was lying in both books, or you haven't read them once and are completely unaware of what Paul says. (And Peter, and James...)

Practice Judaism if you want to, not me, I was redeemed by the Lord.
Think of the parable of the prodigal son. What was the redemption in this story? It was the father, restoring the son to his former state. From that day forward, the son would understand how much better he was being in good stead in the household and would appreciate what his father did, to have the confidence in him, to fulfil what the father believed that the son had inside him. The ability to repent of his wrongdoing and to subject himself to rightful authority and to follow the rules of his father's house.
How does the story end? I have to think that the newly restored and redeemed son commits himself to the path that his father had instructed the son in when he was a child, and to continue on that path.
How it does not end? The son realizes that the rules of his father do not apply to him, apparently, and he can rob the house to go whoring and drinking and always be able to find a place at the table.

To get to your post. The ceremonial part that Israel performed were the symbols of the covenant and the power of the covenant was not in the symols themselves. They were the reminders of the true plan of redemption that God had in mind that would eventually bring about a permanent resolution to the problem of sin.
You are worried about me maybe thinking Paul was a liar. Well how about thinking God is an idiot who came up with a faulty plan and had to throw together a plan B to hastily rectify the situation? The plan was always the same plan from before the world was created. The New Covenant is better than the old because it was the covenant with Adam, who failed. The new covenant is with Jesus who did not fail, and as we fell into sin, not of our own doing, we will enter into righteousness, not of our own doing.

[edit on 1-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 




Read Romans... then read Hebrews. And then just simply follow the Lord alone, we are now under the covenant of GRACE, the Mosaic Law passed away when Christ was nailed to the cross. We are under a New Covenant now, the covenant of grace.



Theological meaning of grace....

the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them.
Also called state of grace. the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect.

Your explanation of grace is that you get a free pass if you claim Jesus as your saviour yet it was Jesus Himself that said you must keep the commandments to enter the kingdom:

Mattew 19
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


This is as plain as it gets.. "Keep the Commandments". He goes on to list commandments 5-9 and the general commandment to love your neighbor. Why did He add that commandment? Because love for your neighbor, which is what is depicted in commandments 6-10, is what will lead you to a loving relationship with God. To love God and hate your neighbor is a sin in itself. Fact is, Jesus was talking to this rich man and telling him to keep the TEN COMMANDMENTS, God's spiritual law. Jesus' fulfillment of these laws were not a doing-away with the laws, but a magnification of these laws. Just read on down and you'll see what I mean by "magnification" of the laws.

Matthew 5
Murder Begins in the Heart

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge
, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Adultery in the Heart

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Marriage Is Sacred and Binding

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus Forbids Oaths

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Go the Second Mile

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven
; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

So the laws were magnified in their fulfillment. Don't lust, don't hate, love your enemies, don't swear AT ALL, etc. It's basically more to the law than originally. The law as it was intended to be. Perfect. This is why Jesus said "Love God and Love your neighbor." Love is the LAW. If you love, you follow the law.

Matthew 15
Defilement Comes from Within
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,
2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”—
6 then he need not honor his father or mother. Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This is showing how the old law failed because of the "traditions of men" and "commandments of men." This is the reason Jesus was ridiculed by the Jewish authorities in the gospels. He was following the laws by the book while they were following the ordinances and commandments of men. The tradition of elders.

Matthew 19
Marriage and Divorce
1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

We see here that there was a law added within the ten commandments to for a certificate of divorcement which Moses himself added. Jesus states that from the beginning it was not meant for spouses to divorce.... from the time of Adam and Eve before the commandments were given to Israel. The point is, these commandments always existed. They were simply written in stone and given to the Israelites as their national laws of the land. They are still never-ending spiritual laws. Lawlessness is the transgression of THE LAW (Ten Commandments)

[edit on 11/2/2009 by Locoman8]



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


My friend, I agree with every verse that you provided, but it's kinda a red herrring, when the Lord made those statements the Old Covenant was still very much in effect, it wasn't fulfilled until the Lord uttered the words "It is finished". That's why I suggested reading Romans and Hebrews, what the Holy Spirit has to say through the pen of Paul about salvation POST-Christ. POST Old Covenant.

At the time Jesus was speaking on Earth before His crucifixion the Old Covenant was very much applicable.


[edit on 6-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 08:27 PM
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Jmdewey,

have you ever read Galatians? It's a crucial letter of Paul as it pertains EXACTLY to our present "debate" A little background info: At the time Paul wrote to the Christians at Galatia he had already been to their church on 2 occasions to teach them the Christian faith. During Paul's absence, teachers came from Palestine called Judaizers and these Judaizers insisted that these Gentile believers at Galatia could not be true Christians until they submitted to the Jewish ordinance of circumcision.

Furthermore, the Judaizers insisted that the Galatians MUST adhere to the Law of Moses as well. These naive Christians at Galatia accepted the Judaizers just as enthusiastically as they did Paul's preaching. These Galatians were "babes in Christ", newly converted from the Gentile pagan religions.

The ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK OF GALATIANS was to combat these vicious heresies in which the work of Christ was considered insufficient for salvation, that "works" of the Law of Moses were still required of Christians.

The first way Paul chose to do this was to disprove the Judaizer's claims that he was not a "true" apostle of Christ. The Judaizers said that since Paul was not one of the original 12 apostles, he must have received his teachings from other apostles. Paul shows that he was equal to the other apostles because he received the Christian doctrine straight from Jesus Christ himself by revelation on the road to Tarsus. (Acts)

Paul even rebuked Peter, one of the original 12, when there was a dispute over whether Paul, as a Jew, should be allowed to disregard the Law of Moses. Let alone the Gentile converts to Christianity. (Galatians 2:11-14)

Once Paul established his apostolic authority he PROVES that all Christians are justified to God for salvation by faith in CHRIST'S atoning work rather than by the works of the Mosaic Law. (Galatians 2:15-4:15) This leads to Paul's final topic of Christians being led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-6:10) The threat of the Judaizers came to an end, (apparently), at the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, prior to that time the Jewish Christian converts were considered to be a sect or a new branch of Judaism. (Acts 24:5)

Read all of Galatians, stop with this 2,000 year old heresy man, Paul has ripped the idea that we have to follow the Law to shreds in virtually all of his letters to the various churches. Put your faith in Christ's atoning work.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Circumcision is not part of the moral code. It is not immoral to be uncircumcised. The ceremonial law pointed to Christ. Once he fulfilled his duties on earth, there was no need to continue on with that aspect of the law, as passed down by the priests of the old system.
Jesus is our high priest and he has also passed down the law, and that is the moral law, and instead of the ceremonial attachments to it, he amplified the important part, which is the moral part, that lasts after the parts that prefigured him were to pass away.

Paul has ripped the idea that we have to follow the Law to shreds in virtually all of his letters to the various churches. Put your faith in Christ's atoning work.
Are you sure? "The idea that we have to follow the law" is ripped to shreds. I would advise you to think about that statement a little. So the only purpose of the Spirit is. . .what? To give us faith? If our faith saves us, then that is salvation by works, because our faith is a work. Our salvation is not based on how much faith we have.
Why should anybody burn in Hell? Is it because he was a bad person, or because he didn't have quite enough faith? If it is because he was bad, on what bases do you determine his badness? There must be a law. If this law is able to kill a man, despite the fact that Jesus died to save the world, why would that same law not kill you? Because you own works in your mind? No, no, no! You must have good works of your hand. Otherwise. . .to Hell you go!



[edit on 6-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Hey man, compare apples to apples, no one said the moral law was abolished, the ENTIRE debate you and i have been having is in regards to the ceremonial law, which Sabbath-keeping falls under. You claiming one must keep the Sabbath, myself claiming the requirement died with Christ. From ACTS through Revelation, (including Galatians which I suggested you read), the moral law is clearly written and plainly states those who violate it will not inherit eternal life. Don't even try to redefine the debate 3 pages into it.

And you bring up red herring after red herring. What does Galatians say about keeping the law of Moses? Galatians was written to ADDRESS the exact same thing you and I are debating, whether Christians are bound to the law. (Ceremonial Law since you want to be coy).

What Paul said to Peter when he rebuked him:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ~ Galatians 2:16

Other important verses:

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" ~ Galatians 3:3

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"~ Galatians 3:10-13

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Galatians 3:23-27

Did you not previously say: "Paul IS NOT a liar". Well, why do you outright REJECT what he has to say in Romans, Hebrews, and now I proved to you THROUGHOUT the book of Galatians??

I'm getting almost fed up trying to teach you the SDA's are teaching false doctrine, I would post over 100 failed prophecies Mrs. White made, but you'd probably refuse to read them too. (For those reading this debate failed prophecies = "FALSE PROPHET")

But go ahead J, work your tail off every day of your life trying to keep all 619 commandments from God in the Old Covenant for your justification to Him, it's your life. But think twice before you try and convince another brother to do so, remember what the Lord said about those who would teach others to follow heresies and those who would be "stumbling blocks" to another Christian's faith.

You can follow Moses, I'll trust my Christian doctrine to Paul.


[edit on 6-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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Ahh heck with it, to ANYONE interested in the heresies of the SDA church and their founder Ellen G. White:

Prophecy Blunders of Ellen G. White

"Great Controversey" plagarizes J.N. Andrews work

Proof Ellen G. White's "I was shown" prophecies were plagarized

80 questions Sabbatarians hate to be asked:

20 COMMANDMENTS FOR SABBATARIANS:

1. Thou Shalt not divide the first covenant up into moral and ceremonial laws!

2. Thou shalt not arbitrarily switch the definition of terms like "commandments" and "the law" in passages to avoid contradiction with your own theology.

3. Thou shalt realize that the book of Genesis does not contain the word "Sabbath" and nowhere in the New Covenant is the Sabbath day commandment found, instead, it says the Sabbath was abolished!

4. Thou shalt never again misquote Matthew 5:17 (jot or tittle) as a proof text for Sabbath keeping.

5. Thou shalt not make the keeping of days (Sabbath day) into a moral law, when it is clearly a ceremonial law.

6. Thou shalt never teach that if the Ten Commandments are abolished, we can steal and commit adultery.

7. Although you may not like it, thou shalt learn that the current and historic "official position" of the Seventh-day Adventist and most other Sabbatarians churches is that Sunday worship IS THE Mark Of The Beast.

8. Thou shalt remember that the two greatest commandments were not in the 10 commandments.

9. Thou shalt stop misrepresenting history by ignoring the fact that early Christians always worshipped on the first day (Sunday) and never kept the Sabbath!

10. Thou shalt not claim that Ellen G. White was an inspired prophet, when in fact she plagiarized (copied) most of her major books from the local library including many of what she claimed were visions from God!

11. Thou shalt not teach that the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant that was abolished, are two different things!

12. Thou shalt not reject everything the Catholic church teaches EXCEPT their claim to have changed the Sabbath day.

13. If thou claim that since Jesus is our example and that He did keep the Sabbath, therefore we should keep the Sabbath... Also keep animal sacrifices, the day of Pentecost feast, the Days of Unleavened bread, since Jesus also kept these...being our example. Thou shalt be consistent.

14. Thou shalt teach that although God never changes, the Sabbath law does change!

15. Thou shalt not say that the Sunday worship is of pagan origin by quoting from Bible haters like Arthur Weigall, who trash not only Sunday, but Sabbath, the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ!

16.Thou shalt not fail to understand that OUR POSITION is not that the Sabbath day was not changed to Sunday, it was abolished before you contact us.

17. Thou shalt not ever teach that that Apostle Paul kept the Sabbath 84 times, when in fact he never kept the Sabbath as a Christian.

18. Thou shalt learn that the Seventh-day Adventist church has a long record of suppressing information of its members to hide proof it was founded by a cult leader.

19. Thou shalt fully understand why former Seventh-day Adventists left the movement and criticized the church about 100 years ago.

20. Thou shalt learn that the only day ever mentioned in connection with worship of Christians after the resurrection was the first day of the week communion (Acts 20:7) and first day of the week collection (1 Cor 16:1-2)

SOURCE

I tell you the truth about your cult, because as a person who claims to be a Christian you need to reject these heresies.

FOLLOW PAUL TO CHRIST, NOT MOSES OR ELLEN G. WHITE!!!!



posted on Nov, 6 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Do you hear yourself dude? The moral law is still in effect? That's the ten commandments minus the sabbath. You sound like you're talking about the bylaws being done away with and trying to place the sabbath under these bylaws. And the Commandments of God are very much alive post-Christ! Paul, Peter, John, and James all spoke about keeping God's commandments. And as I pointed out earlier, the ten commandments were honored even before Moses passed them down to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai.


What does Christ's personal example teach us about the Sabbath? "So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). Jesus used the Sabbath for its intended purpose: to help people develop a personal relationship with their Creator.

After His death, we see that Christ's apostles followed His example in their observance of the Sabbath day. "Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2). "And [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 18:4).

Today, however, most people who profess to follow Christ do not follow the example set by Him and His apostles. Most fail to realize that the wholesale rejection of the Sabbath as the Christian day of worship did not start until almost 300 years after Christ's ministry on earth.

The official substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath was orchestrated by the Roman emperor Constantine, who made Christianity the official state religion to secure political advantage over a defeated contender for the office of emperor. His rival supported a policy of persecuting and killing Christians. Constantine was quick to grasp the political advantage of accepting and supporting Christians, but that acceptance came with a price: state control over all religious matters.

Nowhere in the Bible does either the Father or Jesus Christ ever grant permission to change the time of the Sabbath from the seventh day to Sunday, the first day of the week. No human being, institution or state has ever had the right to tamper with what God has made sacred.


Do you grasp how important this is? If we are in Christ, our heavenly Father is creating in us His own character, His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). The weekly time He has set perpetually apart to remind us that He is the Creator is the same weekly period during which He instructs us as He molds us into a new creation.

God's Word calls us "newborn babes" and says that we should "desire the pure milk of the word, that [we] may grow thereby" (1 Peter 2:2). The Sabbath is the time God has set aside for us to grow closer to Him through study of His Word, personal prayer and group instruction. He has sanctified it—set it apart—as holy time (Genesis 2:1-3). We should use it to delight ourselves in Him by diligently seeking His participation in our spiritual development (Isaiah 58:14).

The Sabbath is the day on which Christ's disciples should be growing closer to each other. "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:24-25).

The Sabbath is the only day on which God ever commands a weekly assembly. "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings" (Leviticus 23:3).

The internal evidence of the New Testament shows that Christ's apostles and their converts continued to assemble on the seventh day, the Sabbath. They observed the day, however, with a renewed emphasis on the "new" person God is in the process of creating. The relationship of the seventh day to their lives grew in its importance to them. The book of Hebrews confirms that the followers of Christ and the apostles kept the Sabbath, affirming that "there remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9, NIV).

Yes, Jesus and His apostles consistently obeyed God's command to keep the Sabbath holy. They kept the seventh day as the Sabbath, just as their fellow Jews of that time did. God's commandment to us remains "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Exodus 20:8).

We desperately need to take time to grow close to our Creator. He tells us how much special time we need to set aside for our relationship with Him and when to take it. We have to decide whether we trust His judgment and are willing to obey His Sabbath commandment.



posted on Nov, 7 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Do you hear yourself dude? The moral law is still in effect? That's the ten commandments minus the sabbath. You sound like you're talking about the bylaws being done away with and trying to place the sabbath under these bylaws. And the Commandments of God are very much alive post-Christ!


I said the same, throughout the NT from ACTS through Revelation the "moral laws" are commanded:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Galatians 5:19-21 (Do you see "Sabbath-breakers" on that list?? I'm having trouble finding the words...)



Paul, Peter, John, and James all spoke about keeping God's commandments.


Those above they sure did, and I agree and have never said to violate those laws, Paul, Peter (post being rebuked by Paul for Judaizing), John and James NEVER spoke of keeping the Sabbath. Show me where one of those men said we Christians are still under the command to keep the Sabbath.


And as I pointed out earlier, the ten commandments were honored even before Moses passed them down to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai.


Show me one single verse that shows Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, or Jacob keeping the Sabbath.


What does Christ's personal example teach us about the Sabbath?


Who cares? Jesus Christ practiced JUDAISM, not Christianity. Christ's sole purpose in coming to Earth was to "FULFILL the Law". (See Matthew 5:8)


"So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). Jesus used the Sabbath for its intended purpose: to help people develop a personal relationship with their Creator.


No, He kept the Sabbath to fulfill the Law, exactly what he said He had come to Earth for in Matthew 5:8, because he could never created a New Covenant with mankind until the law be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:8)


After His death, we see that Christ's apostles followed His example in their observance of the Sabbath day.


We most certainly do NOT, show me a single verse where an apostle kept the Sabbath.


"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2).


Paul is preaching to Jews in the synagogue, unless the synagogue was in his house, or was within 1,000 steps from his house he was not keeping the Sabbath.


"And [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 18:4).


See same above. So if an SDA preacher came and tried to convert Sunday keepers to SDA theology in their churches on Sunday would he then fail to be a Sabbatarian??? No, he'd be trying to CONVERT. Which is exactly what Paul was doing... EVANGELIZING to those practicing Judaism.


Today, however, most people who profess to follow Christ do not follow the example set by Him and His apostles.


We don't follow the example set by Christ because he was a Jew practicing Judaism, He didn't command the apostles to evangelize CHRISTIANITY until after His resurrection, and the last half of what you said is false, there is ZERO record of the apostles keeping the Sabbath in the NT.



Most fail to realize that the wholesale rejection of the Sabbath as the Christian day of worship did not start until almost 300 years after Christ's ministry on earth.


*CORRECTION* Most fail to believe a MYTH, there is no evidence of any church from the 1st century till today of Christians keeping the Sabbath. (EXCEPT for Judaizers like the SDAs)


The official substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath was orchestrated by the Roman emperor Constantine, who made Christianity the official state religion to secure political advantage over a defeated contender for the office of emperor. His rival supported a policy of persecuting and killing Christians. Constantine was quick to grasp the political advantage of accepting and supporting Christians, but that acceptance came with a price: state control over all religious matters.


All Constantine did was forbid work on Sunday, he never commanded the Sabbath changed to Sunday. He simply said no work on the day Christians already were gathering for worship.


Nowhere in the Bible does either the Father or Jesus Christ ever grant permission to change the time of the Sabbath from the seventh day to Sunday, the first day of the week.


Jesus practiced Judaism when He walked the Earth, He never told the Apostles to evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ until He was resurrected and the Law had been fulfilled. Should we therefore practice Judaism since Jesus Christ did when he walked the Earth?? Christians don't "observe" the Sabbath on Sunday... I'm so glad, if so I'd have to stay inside my house instead of meeting with fellow Christians for church.


No human being, institution or state has ever had the right to tamper with what God has made sacred.
Red Herring. No one is claiming that man did. YOU and JM are claiming the special covenant God made with the exiled Jews and Israel applies to Gentiles.


Do you grasp how important this is? If we are in Christ, our heavenly Father is creating in us His own character, His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).


That simply means we are given the Holy Spirit, the same spirit God gave to Jesus when He was baptized, the same spirit Jesus gave to the Apostles at Pentecost. Do you really think God wants Christians to convert to and follow Judaism as Jesus did before He was crucified???


The weekly time He has set perpetually apart to remind us that He is the Creator is the same weekly period during which He instructs us as He molds us into a new creation.


Why didn't He give the commandment to Adam, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Issac, or Jacob? You know if it was essential?


God's Word calls us "newborn babes" and says that we should "desire the pure milk of the word, that [we] may grow thereby" (1 Peter 2:2).


I agree, "God's Word" also includes Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, Titus, Colossians, Ephesians, and all the NT books where Paul says we are dead to the law through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Or is God lying in those books/verses?


The Sabbath is the time God has set aside for us to grow closer to Him through study of His Word, personal prayer and group instruction.


God said to "keep it Holy", to "stay inside your homes", and to "kill those who do not keep the Sabbath". Do SDA's keep the Sabbath? Nope, not if they leave their homes and refuse to kill people who don't keep the Sabbath.


He has sanctified it—set it apart—as holy time (Genesis 2:1-3).


I agree. Now show me where after Christ we are justified by the Law.



We should use it to delight ourselves in Him by diligently seeking His participation in our spiritual development (Isaiah 58:14).


Isaiah was written while mankind was under the Old Covenant. (You find Isaiah in the OLD TESTAMENT, i.e. "Old Covenant")


The Sabbath is the day on which Christ's disciples should be growing closer to each other.


False, Christ's disciples should be doing this 7 days a week.


"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." (Hebrews 10:24-25).


I agree, we should be doing this every day of the week.


The Sabbath is the only day on which God ever commands a weekly assembly. "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings" (Leviticus 23:3).


"In your dwellings"... do you leave your dwelling on the Sabbath, or do you have a holy convocation with members in your own household? If you hold study, worship, and prayer time with everyone under your roof then you are keeping the Sabbath. If you leave your house and walk more than 1,000 paces you immediately violate the Sabbath.


The internal evidence of the New Testament shows that Christ's apostles and their converts continued to assemble on the seventh day, the Sabbath.


I hope so, they were still Jews. Are you or I a Jew? the covenant of the Sabbath was made with the Jews. Requiring Gentiles to convert to the practices, customs, and special covenants of the Jews is called "Judaizing", EXACTLY what Paul's letter to the Galatians addressed.

What do you get out of Galatians when you read it?? You tell me what Galatians means to you. It will take you 15 minutes to read it.

What do you learn from Galatians??



[edit on 7-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]



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