Enough with the praying already!, page 2

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
reply to post by kozmo

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kozmo, don't get your panties in a twist. You made a valid point. But the topic of this thread is not to say there is no room for prayer, but the amount of it and the calling upon of God throuout the ceremony seemed excessive and made some of us uncomfortable.

I am personally musing out loud as to why that is and believe I too have made a valid point in regards to Bush jr. in how he hid behind his Higher Father when asked why he did not regret any decisions he has made.

And I think that regardless of our religious or political leanings we can all agree that Bush's lack of regard for questioning his decisions has left this country a worse place than what it was when he took over.

Cool! Point taken. It's often hard to judge what motivates people to discuss the whole invocation issue. I just wanted to ensure that the very legal, very valid point regarding the Establishment Clause was recognized.

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

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To counter you completely...I would be Horrified if they did not Pray before the luncheon. On such a auspicious occasion, one must humble himself and beg The Lord God Almighty for aid. This is a wonderful way to begin any endeavor. And we should all be accustomed to praying before each and every meal, to thank God for His Blessings. Muslims, Jews and Christians are taught in their respective scriptures to pray constantly. It is not uncommon for most people to pray several times a day or even silently several times an hour. I think you may not realize how much most people pray...and maybe that is why they are there getting things done(as leaders, senators, congressmen and presidents) and you are at home or wherever watching it on TV. Maybe because they ask, God leads them to positions of action and leadership.

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky
reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

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I think you may not realize how much most people pray...and maybe that is why they are there getting things done(as leaders, senators, congressmen and presidents) and you are at home or wherever watching it on TV. Maybe because they ask, God leads them to positions of action and leadership.

Umm hmm, but hundreds of millions of dollars from lobbyists and corporate sponsors (and daddies who had the job before you) doesn't hurt either...

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

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Thank you!

Why do we have to be subjected to that? Not everyone in this country is Christian, or even religious, and our government is supposed to be secular!

I guess I can bow to tradition, but damn that guy held the stage for a long time.

[edit on 1/20/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky
reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

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I think you may not realize how much most people pray...and maybe that is why they are there getting things done(as leaders, senators, congressmen and presidents) and you are at home or wherever watching it on TV. Maybe because they ask, God leads them to positions of action and leadership.

Umm hmm, but hundreds of millions of dollars from lobbyists and corporate sponsors (and daddies who had the job before you) doesn't hurt either...

umm hmm, lol or maybe, just maybe they have all sold their souls to the christian satan?

Well, personally I am pretty ticked off that they did not pray to a goddess, any goddess, because I think "god" is actually a "goddess". (I am not really ticked about it, just making a point.)

Point being? Not EVERYONE believes in the christian "god", but many believe in something, a higher power, a goddess or what have you. Ignoring this fact is basically ignoring a large part of this worlds community. (yes world, because it is obvious that what takes place in the USA reverberates throughout the world)

I agree with prayer, I disagree with the ideology of one specific religions prayers being used in such public situations. I pray quite often, and prayer does give me comfort, but I generally do not try and force others to believe and/or pray the way I do.

reply to post by BlueRaja

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But this is a secular government, and it is becoming a more and more secular nation of people.

If you want to bring Christian prayer in, then you better prepare to start bringing Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, etc. I suspect Christians will soon start to see their undue, privileged treatment in this country is fading.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by BlueRaja

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But this is a secular government, and it is becoming a more and more secular nation of people.

If you want to bring Christian prayer in, then you better prepare to start bringing Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, etc. I suspect Christians will soon start to see their undue, privileged treatment in this country is fading.

It's always been a secular government, but the nation and Constitution was founded on Christian principles. Muslims, Hindus, etc...are free to worship as they please, and atheists are free to not worship. That doesn't mean that our traditions should kowtow to every Johnny come lately.

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by BlueRaja

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But this is a secular government, and it is becoming a more and more secular nation of people.

If you want to bring Christian prayer in, then you better prepare to start bringing Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, etc. I suspect Christians will soon start to see their undue, privileged treatment in this country is fading.

It's always been a secular government, but the nation and Constitution was founded on Christian principles. Muslims, Hindus, etc...are free to worship as they please, and atheists are free to not worship. That doesn't mean that our traditions should kowtow to every Johnny come lately.

Unfortunately I think you are wrong, the Constitution was NOT founded on christian principles. Their are somewhere around 55% of the population that believe erroneously that the Constitution establishes a Christian nation.

The Constitution contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office.

Washington's administration even negotiated a treaty with the Muslim rulers of north Africa that stated explicitly that the United States was not founded on Christianity. The pact, known as the Treaty with Tripoli, was approved unanimously by the Senate in 1797, under the administration of John Adams. Article 11 of the treaty states, "[T]he government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…."

Do some research, our founders were very intelligent in their thinking towards the future, and understood the history of nations/etc being based on any specific religion and the damage this could cause.

Peace

reply to post by Nlive81

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That's fine. But then, neither will prominent atheist speakers, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, and any other schools of thought.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by BlueRaja

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But this is a secular government, and it is becoming a more and more secular nation of people.

If you want to bring Christian prayer in, then you better prepare to start bringing Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, etc. I suspect Christians will soon start to see their undue, privileged treatment in this country is fading.

A Christian person should pray a Christian prayer, not Muslim, Hindu, Jewish or any other. While the other religions (including non-believers of any religion) may be included in a prayer, it still must be a Christian prayer.

Soon start to see??? Christian privileges have been being corralled tighter and tighter for years. The perpetually offended have cried to the point that it is against the law for prayer to be said aloud in many places. Though I do not advocate loud prayers of a personal nature in public, there is nothing wrong with a person asking for God's blessing and guidance for whatever they are about to undertake.

President Obama was correct to begin his leadership as he saw fit, which included a prayer not only acknowledging God as the creator but asking for his guidance and blessings as well.

Though that one line about committing them I too found a bit odd and it did have a funeral ring to it.

Also, this secular government is filled with people, people who for the most part, had religion before they went into office. Do you really expect them to renounce their religion when they take a government office? I seriously doubt any of them will change their spiritual beliefs no matter how much others may be "offended" by it.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by SheaWolf]

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