Shriner claims to be Lucifer

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Dr Love]

reply to post by Dr Love


God i hate people when they mess with the elder masons or shiners. if only people really knew the main goal of the Shriners.

Me being a Shriner, seeing that saddens me about the populace of the United States, and especially that of the religious folk who try to force their religion on others. I don't see any harm that that Shriner did to deserve that? i thought there was n honor code of respecting your elders and not harassing them.

The Shriners have helped so many kids and people through out their existence that, it is almost absurd for anyone to say such a thing. The Shriner's Hospitals that are scattered through out the United States ( i believe their are 22) help kids with any issue under the age of 18 free of charge. One of the greatest things about the Hospitals is that there isn't one cash register in the entire building. We even help other kids from other countries. For instance, The Shrine that i belong to goes down to Mexico to pick up kids who live in poverty stricken area's and if they have any problems they bring them across the border (of course with a medical visa) to the Shriner's Hospital in L.A. so they can be taken care of and have any problems fixed....free of charge.

When the Christian video tapping the Shriner starts talking about Lucifer, i had the sense that the old man was confused about what he was saying. Some of the elder men have issues as they age. I wonder if the guy video tapping him as done as much to help anyone as that Shriner has done. that video makes me sick to my stomach.

btw, doesn't Lucifer mean "light bringer?"

Are the shriners still refusing to disclose their books on how much of what they take in to go to the "shriner hospitals" actually get there?

Do the Shriners have a mental hospital yet?

Oh dear! Being someone who doesn't like freemasonry, but strangely enough quite likes the masons here on ATS, I have always questioned the secrecy side of the brotherhood. Just what are they hiding? And if nothing why not remove the secrecy aspect? Then someone like this comes along and hey presto, Pandora's box has been opened and all the old weird questions about whether masons are Luciferians will once more be raised.

I think it is despicable that he picked on an old man who clearly didn't realize what was going on.

reply to post by sir_chancealot

No patient is ever charged a fee. Are you a member of the IRS? You have no authority to see their books.

[edit on 20-1-2009 by KSigMason]

reply to post by sir_chancealot


A lot goes to the Children's Hospitals. For one when i pay my dues every year i know a portion goes to the hospitals and s forth. It costs a lot of money to maintain and keep open a full-functioning facility that is not paid by the patients. a majority of the money is made by the dues of the fellow Shriners and some of what is donated by others. i also belong to a Shrine Club that meets once a month at a restaurant to have fun and what not, and we give a donation to the children's hospital as well.

Especially while the Shiner's Hospital in L.A. is downtown, you can imagine the bills and mortgage on a building like that. Money is no option for Shriners. we help people and children because we know its the right thing to do. Helping and Serving mankind is our goal. There's nothing more satisfying then helping a child walk again, or relieve them of a terrible disease that has inhabited them for so long.

We're not just clowns and tiny-care driving fez wearers. Our mission is to help.

Oh, look. "No patient is ever charged a fee" and "It costs a lot of money to maintain and keep open a full-functioning facility that is not paid by the patients."

Neither of those have relevance to my question.

Are they still refusing to show their books, and how much of the money donated for that cause actually GOES to that cause?

Interesting that two people jump on here to defend them, without answering that basic question.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Obviously 'm not in charge of the books of the entire Shrine. Why don't you go and call the Shrine and ask them yourself? I'm just telling you how it is. Go and find your "own" truth.

btw, what else would the shrine do with their money?

Each mason has his own beliefs. The Shriner's beliefs are demonstrated by their commitment to charity, their provision of free-medical care to any child who needs it and over $1 million PER DAY donated to charity each year.



[edit on 1/20/09 by emsed1]

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Dr Love]

reply to post by Dr Love


your answer is NO


sorry for the one liner...its necessary in my view.

reply to post by Dr Love


Perhaps 'attack' was not the right word.

The headline of this thread, though, is inflammatory and appeals to the lowest common denominator.

I understand the need to liven things up through thoughtful discussion, but I think your motivation was to provoke Masons, especially in the light of recent threads.

It is exhausting to stay rational and try and address issues like this truthfully because questions are asked and answered, but then the answers are challenged as lies.

I am not a Shriner and don't know what the Shriners believe, but since all Shriners are Masons painting them with this broad inflammatory characterization makes everyone look bad.

Masons look bad because we get poked and prodded and try to answer calmly and truthfully but the process never ends.

In my opinion I think it is improper for you to have started this thread as a Moderator. I think if you had put the 'mod' disclaimer around your post I would not be so upset, but as the same type of conspiracy theorist that sees untoward motivations in masons, I see an unsavory motivation on the part of ATS.

I understand the need to drive user-content as well, but for some reason it seems ok to disparage masonry while protecting other groups from baseless accusation.

Why entitle the thread "Shriner claims to be Lucifer"? Why not "Elderly man claims to be Lucifer" or "American claims to be Lucifer" or "Christian claims to be Lucifer"?

The man is all of these, but does it mean all elderly, Americans or Christians are Luciferian? No.

However if the thread had born one of the other titles it would not spark the controversy it has, or it would be moved to Skunk works as unreasonable and inflammatory.

Originally posted by Dr Love

Originally posted by emsed1
So first our hands are tied and we are gagged in the name of promoting conspiracies and now we are being attacked with impunity by actual moderators.

Where did I attack you? I asked a simple question, to verify if what that guy was saying was the same Shriner doctrine as other Shriners know it to be? (Yes. No. Somewhat....here are a few differences.....)

Peace

You should know by now that the masons are quite happy to talk about the brotherhood as long as it's on their terms and you don't ask too many cutting questions. If you do it's labelled as an attack and other masons then surround you in a feeding frenzy, protecting their fellow mason.
As someone who doesn't like freemasonry but is fascinated by the cult, sorry- brotherhood, every time I ask a question it desolves into name calling.

Originally posted by Dr Love
Are there any Shriners here who can verify this as Shriner doctrine, or is this guy just a mental patient who happens to be a Shriner?

There isn't a Shrine doctrine. The Shrine is actually little more than a grown up college frat. It's ritual is purposely ridiculous, and is known as one of the so-called "fun degrees", based on hazing and other juvenile escapades.

As for me personally, I have to question as to whether that old guy in the video is really a Shriner, or just someone the filmmaker had to pretend to be one. Most Masons and Shriners know about as much about Lucifer as they know about brain surgery.



[edit on 20-1-2009 by Masonic Light]

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Dr Love]

The simple way to answer the question regarding the beliefs of the Shriners is to point out that the Shrine, like all Masonic bodies, does not have any religious doctrine at all. It requires a belief in a Supreme Being and (depending on your Masonic Jurisdiction) may require a belief in the immortality of the soul. After that, you're on your own as far as religious dogma is concerned.

I find it likely that the clip in question had quite a set-up before we saw what was there. Perhaps the camera-person asked if the man was a worshiper of Lucifer and he got annoyed and tried (poorly) to make a joke of it.

I prefer to take the words of Jesus to heart in such matters. "By their fruits you will know them," he said. The fruits of the Shriners are the healing, at no charge, of thousands who come to their hospitals and clinics. The fruits of the naysayers and critics are... YouTube videos, accusations, and smear campaigns.

Well, I know which sounds more Christ-like to me.

FWIIW, I am not a Shriner and really have no intention of becoming one (despite being a Mason).

reply to post by sir_chancealot

The outfit that keeps the majority of the money is The United Way. My nephew got over two million dollars of medical treatment at a Shriners Hospital. The doctor who put him back together even flew his own plane from New Orleans to Galveston to perform the surgeries at his own expense(plane expenses and lost wages at Tulane Medical Center).

Shriners are the last true Saints in this country! Beware of The United Way. I only give to the Shriners.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.


You should know by now that the masons are quite happy to talk about the brotherhood as long as it's on their terms and you don't ask too many cutting questions. If you do it's labelled as an attack and other masons then surround you in a feeding frenzy, protecting their fellow mason.
As someone who doesn't like freemasonry but is fascinated by the cult, sorry- brotherhood, every time I ask a question it desolves into name calling.

I don't think it's that at all.

Masons are happy to answer questions when asked. The problem arises when we are asked, we answer and then we are called liars and accused of not knowing what we ourselves are part of.

It's also not like this is a recent phenomena. It comes in waves. When we answer questions and the questioner is satisfied, the thread dies.

When we answer a question and the questioner asks for more information about Masonry's good side we are accused of 'proselytizing' and 'recruiting' and the thread is killed.

When highly inflammatory posts about pedophilia, murder and satanism are posted we try to answer but then are labeled liars, thieves and murderers.

I love answering questions about Freemasonry and denying ignorance about Freemasonry in a thoughtful and lively atmosphere.

In the end it's quite simple. Rational threads from honest questioners and open-minded ATSers are simply boring. People don't want to read or accept the most obvious and truthful answers.

People come to ATS (as did I) to dig through the noise and try to find the signal, or the truth.

We have three choices when answering a question:

1) Silence - Result: It's a conspiracy

2) Thoughtful, truthful response - Result: You are lying because Albert Pike used the word 'Lucifer' in his book.

3) Defensive response - Result: See there, masons ARE mean!

What are we to do? How can we answer when you won't accept it?

The confusion arises because there is this widespread misinterpretation that Freemasonry dictates what a man is to believe and that's not true. Freemasonry teaches a man to act ethically while following his own path. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

On the topic: It seems like this man may have the belief that he is Lucifer. This is not Shrine doctrine, nor Masonic doctrine, because there is no such thing.

It's just a video of a man expressing his beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by emsed1
I understand the need to liven things up through thoughtful discussion, but I think your motivation was to provoke Masons, especially in the light of recent threads.

And how did you come to this conclusion?

It is exhausting to stay rational and try and address issues like this truthfully because questions are asked and answered, but then the answers are challenged as lies.

And this happened here? No it didn't. He asked a question. Where did the Doc challenge the answers as lies? May I also point out:

Moderators are people (and have opinions too)

Masons look bad because we get poked and prodded and try to answer calmly and truthfully but the process never ends.

Maybe a Masonic site would be more to your liking, rather than a conspiracy site.

In my opinion I think it is improper for you to have started this thread as a Moderator. I think if you had put the 'mod' disclaimer around your post I would not be so upset, but as the same type of conspiracy theorist that sees untoward motivations in masons, I see an unsavory motivation on the part of ATS.

See my last words and the link above.

I understand the need to drive user-content as well, but for some reason it seems ok to disparage masonry while protecting other groups from baseless accusation.

Like I said, this is a conspiracy site, not a Masonic one. You need to develope a thicker skin.

Why entitle the thread "Shriner claims to be Lucifer"? Why not "Elderly man claims to be Lucifer" or "American claims to be Lucifer" or "Christian claims to be Lucifer"?

Why? Members now have to take extreme care not to offend you? I've been reading this forum for years and have not an attitude this limp very often. Maybe THIS is why there have been "recent threads". Some don't realize that this ISN'T a Masonic site.