Muslim on Muslim Attacks

Originally posted by GamerGal
No they weren't!

Islamic terrorists murder more people everyday than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

straight from the site!

You're trying to prove the website correct by using a quote from the website itself. That's like me quoting myself to prove someone else wrong who has a different opinion as me.

If you're intent on believing what you posted, read it word for word again, and then what I said.

No they weren't!

Islamic terrorists murder more people everyday than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

straight from the site!

Was every murder done to a black person done by the KKK? Did the KKK exist when slaves were being sent from Africa in compact ships with no food or water, and dying by the thousands?

reply to post by DJMessiah


I assumed you actually went to the site. I guess you didn't. www.law.umkc.edu...

Originally posted by GamerGal
And in America more people may be killed, but its because of a mugging, gang warfare, not because people were singing at a wedding or wouldn't marry a 12 year old.

...you're right...in some areas people are killed for far more understandable and acceptable reasons...such as wearing the wrong colour, or looking sideways at someone...

Bad dress sense and shifty eyes is most certainly a more socially acceptable reason to cap someone...

*caution - reply may include sarcasm...

Originally posted by GamerGal
I assumed you actually went to the site. I guess you didn't. www.law.umkc.edu...

Of course I went to the site, how else would I have quoted it in my previous post?

Once again, you're cherry picking. The site you linked shows death by lynching. For the statistics on the deaths of blacks by lynching, it lists it as a total of 3,445. Now add that with the number of deaths of blacks who were shot, burned alive, stabbed, starved to death, raped and then killed, died by being dragged by a car, punched/beaten to death, whipped to death, killed by their slave-owner, used as human shields in wars by being forced to be the first groups to enter the battle fields, and so on.

And notice that the terrorist attacks that happened on US soil, after 9/11 were attacks on Muslims, Arabs, Sikhs, mostly anyone who looks Arabic or Middle Eastern, and women who cover their heads.

So yes, even here in the US, people get killed for simple things like wearing something that someone doesn't like.

[edit on Wed Jan 21st 2009 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by alien


But is wearing the wrong clothes punishable because of religion or gang warfare? Is wearing your hat the wrong direction punishable by death because of a religion followed by a billion people or because of ignorance?

reply to post by GamerGal


Does it really matter?

I'm guessing not a whole lot to the person who is killed, or the family that mourns them.

Be they killed over religious beliefs or interpretations thereof...or killed due to violations of gang-turf, gang-codes and whatever *rules* are in place there...does it really matter? What really is the difference when you boil it all down.

Is there one? Is one more understandable? Acceptable? Excusable? Justified...less - dare I say - evil than the other?


Religion - IMO - is a mindset. Just as is gang culture.

In my own opinion it matters little whether someone is pulling the trigger because they feel justified in doing so because of a religious mindset or a gang one...end result is the same. Suffering.

Originally posted by GamerGal
But is wearing the wrong clothes punishable because of religion or gang warfare?

If it's because of the religion, back up your idea with Quranic texts that says the punishment for wearing the wrong clothes is death.

Is wearing your hat the wrong direction punishable by death because of a religion followed by a billion people or because of ignorance?

What religion punishes people with death for wearing their hat in the wrong direction?

Do you understand that you're creating your own examples in your mind to solidify you ignorance? The examples you've been listing have never happened ex: "Sneeze in public = burnt to death," "wearing your hat backwards = killed."

It seems the original intent of this thread was to serve as a public awareness for cases against Hamas but turned into a "Islam is evil" thread.

GamerGal - To hopefully expand a bit more on where I'm coming from:

I was brought up with and within gang culture. Brought up shown and taught to hate this person or that group due to whatever rival gang affiliations they had.

Violence towards rivals, or perceived rivals was justified in that culture...indeed it was praised and carried much kudos.
The culture of gang violence here may not be as extreme in death-toll as perhaps America...sure, people were killed, though predominately the rival gang members were seriously beaten, hospitalised, stabbed etc. That doesn't make it any more acceptable of course.

That was how I grew up...with hate in heart and a fist for my foes.

One thing I learnt through that is that does nothing for you. It does nothing for your people and nothing for others.
It does nothing but perpetuate that circle of suffering. Its a hungry beast that will feed upon you and your offspring.

So the key is to not feed the beast.

Connection rather than condemnation is a better path to take.


Currently I work within the health sector - principally Mental Health, working alongside many people from my ethnic culture and helping them on their recovery journeys. Many are recovering from the cultures they grew up in, recovery from the trauma they have experienced and inflicted.

My wife and I also do volunteer work for a number of Social Services such as Womens Refuge, Men against Violence, At Risk Youth, Drug and Alcohol Services etc.
I counsel a number of men who have issues with violence, Serious/Repeat Offenders etc...basically helping them towards a way of being that casts off that culture...that helps them see - and live - a better way for them and for their families.

My friend there is much pain in this world. We all know that. We see it and feel it each and every day.

My question to you - to us all - is how do our actions, how do our words, help to alleviate that pain. How do WE all bring a bit of peace into this world?

For me one way is to have an open heart rather than a closed fist. Its to not blaze a burning beam into the darker corners of Man but offer a warm light instead.

Little is accomplished when we vilify.
Much is accomplished when we connect.


...or maybe I'm just an old hippy...

reply to post by alien


Violence towards rivals. But how were Palestinians in Gaza rivals too Hamas? They weren't, they were just singing in public and murdered for it.

reply to post by GamerGal


And yes that is obscene. I'm in no way arguing that it isn't.

Be it for dancing or for wearing a different patch on your shoulder...again the end result is suffering.

And again I ask, what are you - we - doing to increase the peace?

Do our words and our works foster it or force it away?

reply to post by alien


Police crack down on gang warfare. Hamas... gets support from Iran, Saudi, UN, for what it does. Gangs kill rivals, Hamas murders people for singing at a wedding or because one member of the family disagreed with Hamas.

reply to post by GamerGal


Are we (and I include myself here) debating semantics or are we merely debating for the sake of debating?



I personally don't see a point in entering into any debate around the rights and wrongs, the hows and whys, the definitions of rivals, of enemies, of fanatics, of followers...as again, end result = suffering.

I'd personally prefer to focus on how we might make some positive change in this world we live in and in the lives of those around us.

reply to post by alien


Positive change? Slaughter Hamas and let the Palestinians have a new election with out Hamas slaughtering those who won't vote for them. Then if the people of Gaza elect more terrorists let Israel do as they please too eliminate the terrorists and the people who put them in power.

reply to post by GamerGal


Gangs do not just kill rivals. They kill rivals friends and family. They kill the gas station clerk just to get some rep. They execute cops for stripes. They beat the occasional "civilian" because that person spoke at them too loud, or said something they didn't like. And when your down for your set, clique, etc, it IS a religion. Its more than a religion, its your life, completely and without any hesitation. You lay down your life if necessary. Everything else, be it religion, real family, work, school, is secondary, the set comes first.

And i'm willing to bet if you look up the stats for LA and Chicago alone, they got more gang murders than Iraq has had sectarian murders. In any comparable time span. read the stories of how they used to snipe random people from the rooftops of cabrini green housing projects. i was once told this story, which sounds unbelievable, but, from what i know and who told me , this was completely possible. i was told that a baby was kidnapped for ransom, and the mother was a pretty wealthy lady. She decided to pay the ransom, and upon getting the baby back was walking out of the projects. A different crew on one of the other towers spotted her, and not knowing why she was there sniped her for being out past curfew. Then they took turns taking blind shots at the baby.

Tell me, is that any less worse, because it isnt religion? is it any less disgusting? As a muslim, i am disgraced with those over there, doing horrible things to each other, in the name of God. But does it matter who is doing what, or even why?

reply to post by GamerGal


So positive change would be more slaughter?

Another thing I'd say is that terrorists/fanatics/whatever *buzz-word* we're attributing to whomever at this time tend not to just sprout from the ether.

They have families too. Communities. Parents. Siblings. Children. Relations.

If they are slaughtered as you put it, will the pain stop?
I guess the pain for those who were previously being *slaughtered* by them may stop somewhat...but thats the thing also with pain, it shows no favour for colour, creed or credentials.

Slaughtering Hamas will pass that pain on to those connected to those slaughtered. Their families, their children, their relations.

...and from that could well - as history often shows - springs the next generation of the pained and angry...

The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons.

Then - perhaps the next move would be to slaughter them...and their children...and their children...and so on...

So what is the answer? I honestly don't know.
But I certainly don't think more slaughter is necessarily the best option.

reply to post by GamerGal


Does killing a goverment party so the opposing party gains majority control really signify a democracy?

Rather than killing off people in hopes that it creates peace, why not get to the root of the problem and see what is causing this?

Would Hamas exist if Israel allowed Palestinians to have their own goverment military? Would Hamas exist if Palestinians had any other means of keeping Israel from expanding its borders?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

While I always like your posts trying to show people the "real" side of Arabs; isnt it true that none of the people you post are truly representative of the average Arab?

The reason they are all so good looking is that they're models, actresses etc. When I went to the ME, most women wore headscarves etc... and I wasn't even in Saudi Arabia.

Sometimes it depends what area you go to, women are more comfortable hanging around their own neighbourhoods and social get togethers. I was not a tourist, I was living among them, so I see things tourist don't see, I see more of the real people, in the neighbourhoods.

It also mainly depends on the country or city. Some countries women prefer to wear scarves more or not speak to tourists as much.

Yes it's true they are celebs. They do not represent the "average" arab in money and looks, but they do represent many Moroccan people, the style and culture. I was showing another side, which is a reality. For example the first 2 pictures is a normal girl who was on star academy (like American Idol, but different)

Just watch arabic music videos, the women in them represent arab women, because arab women copy their fashion, makeup, and the singers represent the culture style.

I don't know where you went but I see more beautiful women in Morocco in 1 day than I do in 1 week in London haha, and over half don't wear scarfs.

Even the Moroccan Princesses are kind of pretty.







Even many of my Moroccan friends and cousins are very beautiful, some more beautiful than those celebs I showed, I can send you proof by u2u if you don't believe me lol.

There are of course a lot of average and not so pretty people around, just like any other place.


But my point was to not show beautiful people! Dammit! I'm getting carried away

But to show that people are free to do and wear what they want, that they are more modern than people think, there is not much women getting oppressed as people think, and there is NOTHING wrong with covering themselves up if they choose, like the moroccan style dresses for example, which are beautiful not oppressing. I was showing another side, another reality.

Peace.



[edit on 22-1-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by DJMessiah


I mentioned Indonesia because others were claiming that this was an area with a great many Muslims that did not have problems with terrorism. Britain, and European countries in general began turning away from colonialism over a hundred years, and what we are seeing now is Islam taking over areas where Europeans returned control back to the native population.

The thing is, murder is illegal, and you won't find anyone who supports murder, who approves of murders saying that with no other means to fight back, murder is acceptable. We in the U.S. recognize the problems with crime and murder and put a great deal of effort into preventing crime. No one here from the U.S. is saying that when a crypt kills a blood, the blood has a right to go kill any crypt he can find, and that drive by shootings are what you get when one gang unfairly dominates another.

People on these forums claim that terrorism is acceptable when it is the only way to get bac what you feel that you lost, and that is not true. Terrorism is never acceptable. When a group like Hamas decides that killing others through acts of terrorism is acceptable, and the people vote these terrorist murderers into power, then what is the answer between two groups that disagree about a conflict. When one group insists on fighting, then the other is obliged to fight even when victory is clear. When someone decides to kill you, and you kill them first, then that is self defense, even if the person who tried to kill the other and died thought they were aggrieved and in the right.