Muslim on Muslim Attacks

Originally posted by GamerGal
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

I know isn't it a cute pic? Anyways, most of these posts are attacking me. Gee, can't debate the facts so shoot the person showing them much? It's ok, attack me all you want! It just means you can't debate the facts.

LOL yeah really cute.

I think it's a debate they are giving more than a attack.

Anyway cute pigs and tigers is a positive thought, I think I'm going to finish this thread while thinking about them.

Peace.

[edit on 20-1-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Gamer, no one is attacking you, I think your confused, I think you have got ATS mixed up with another site. Ats is about denying ignorance and discussion, its not about spreading hatred, racism or ignorance. Those subjects can and are debated but one cannot state the things you do and not expect to be challenged.

The challenges to you are, why do you think as you do, why do you not see all sides of the problem, that is asking you to debate your views its not attacking you.

Originally posted by GamerGal
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

I know isn't it a cute pic? Anyways, most of these posts are attacking me. Gee, can't debate the facts so shoot the person showing them much? It's ok, attack me all you want! It just means you can't debate the facts.

Hi GamerGal.....You keep on speakin out!

The pile on you're experiencing doesn't go unnoticed by the rest of us.

Myself, I've quit trying to explain that 2+2 doesn't = banana!

Deen , obviously your just as confused as Gamer Girl, ATS is not here to be used as a soap box for pushing hatred, racism and ignorance, guite the opposite in fact.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


They don't debate the site, or the facts. They keep talking about me standing on a soap box and pushing racism. What I want to know is how is pointing out that Muslims murder each other more then the Jews and AMericans combined could possibly dream of is racist?

read this kind of stuff before.....

The Nazi Party used to write this kind of thing about the jews..

separate, differentiate, make them different, make them easy to hate.

Goebbels would be proud

its happening again

Originally posted by GamerGal
Gee, can't debate the facts so shoot the person showing them much? It's ok, attack me all you want! It just means you can't debate the facts.

I somehow suspect its not truly a case of people not wishing to 'debate facts'...and really, facts do not exist alone...they tend to require context - and perspective - in order for people to interpret them.

There are many facts out there that could easily damn any of us - regardless of culture, creed, gender or age.

My own ethnic minority culture is disproportionately represented in the Crime Stats. Some context of that is that a person of my culture is 3 times more likely to be incarcerated for the same offence as a member of the majority culture (White).
Though the *facts* of who makes up the prison populations certainly would indicate that my people are prone to criminal behaviour...IF you elected to go by the facts alone without addition context or how those facts came about.

I am a Roman Catholic.
I'm well aware of the checkered history of Catholicism. Within the Catholic wardrobe lay many a skeleton.
IF one was to judge me for the *facts* of abuse etc by those who claim my faith, then well, you probably wouldn't feel comfortable having me anywhere near your child.

I am a Male.
The Abuse Stats of my country indicate that my fellow men are abusers, rapists, assaultors, cheaters, murderers ad infinitum.
I also know numerous men who have been assaulted and abused by their partners. In fact I counsel a number of them.
I know numerous men who were sexually abused, raped etc by females in their youth. Though these Stats are rarely recorded and so rarely acknowledged let alone taken into account.
IF one was to go by the Stats alone, well, it could cause them to be very wary of me for being Male.


Though those *facts* in relation to my culture, my creed, my gender could well colour a person opinions of me. IF someone was to judge me based on those *facts* alone. The *facts* ould well make me out to look like some monster...I can assure you I in no way fit into the mold those stats may suggest.


My point is not to deny *facts* as they are presented. But to instead caution ourselves around how we interpret, how we view - and act upon - any *facts*.


So...personally I don't think its a case of people not wishing to debate *facts*...maybe its more a case of people wishing to debate/question how we interpret and/or act upon them.



Peace.

It is not Islam that produced terrorists, but Arab culture. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, but you have not heard of any extremism or terrorists coming form its population. Actions speak louder than words; I don't care what the Quran says as long as the people reading it keep it to themselves.

reply to post by GamerGal

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

?? are you serious.. 36 years?? Try 600 - 700 years of oppression.. The troubles of the north are not just 36 years old it has been an ongoing process for a long time

Originally posted by GamerGal
America wasn't wrong to invade Afganistan after 9/11. Israel isn't wrong to attack Hamas after it fires over 3,000 missiles a year. The Muslims? Murder others for singing at a wedding, or for premarital sex, or for not marrying a 12 year old girl.

But YOU'RE wrong for lumping everyone into a big package that has the label muslim.

Would you feel the same if the UK started saying 'America, a place of greed and corruption, where all the kids go and shoot each other to death at school, because their parents are too pre-occupied with their own vanity rather than worrying why their kids need medication in the first place.... Where women can only make any further advancements in their career if they've appeared in a porno movie?'

Obviosuly not, get your head out of the clouds GamerGal, for your posts reek of misguided media absorption.

If Muslims kill other Muslims like that, then they're not practising true Islam. Same way Catholics that abuse children aren't true Catholics, etc, etc. Hell, anyone killing -anyone- under the name of religion has got it #ed up. Point is, would you judge someone who was Catholic because of the actions of a few? Hopefully not. So, by the same standards, just because -some- Muslims are extremists doesn't mean all of them are. If you take the religion in it's purest form, then it's pretty peaceful. Just the people that don't know the whole story distort it, and I'm talking about both the misguided followers who think killing non-Muslim's is ok, and those who are ignorant of the religion in general. If people read the big list of quotes from the Koran, then they'll see what I'm talking about.

Haven't read the rest of the thread really, only scrolled through the last page and sayt the excerpts from the Koran, so apologies if someone's posted the exact same thing as I have. Though, that just means two people are right

Star and flag for you gamergirl, I like the way you perceive things. Ut, oh, I better type something more so this will be more than a one line post.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Parts of that aren't too far off. A lot of parents are too busy to take care of their kids. So they do do stuff that doesn't happen in other countries, like Japan. Much of what you said was factual. Just like the link I gave. It didn't just go poof, I say this, it provided thousands of attacks and murders. It provided photo evidence of what it claims. But nope, people just attack me because photos and evidence is kind of hard too debate.

Just once, ONCE. I would like someone who is "Pro-Muslim" come on this website and defend:

--The way Muslim men are allowed to treat Muslim women.

--Muhammad marrying a 9 year old.

--Honor killings of own flesh and blood.

--Hatred so strongly taught to their own children that they'd throw rocks at a Merkava tank driven by a Jew.

--Suicide bombers.

And for the individual that wants to bring up how many Americans kill other Americans every day? What do you expect? America is a mixture of peoples with many freedoms, and not everyone here is a Christian. Oh, and of course......

WE ARE THE GREAT SATAN!

[edit on 20-1-2009 by CreeWolf]

reply to post by CreeWolf


One flaw with a lot of the things you've mentioned is that they're not indicative of true Islam. I mean, jesus, no religion in it's purest form advocates killing innocent people. If you look back to a post on the 2nd page, where it shows some verses from the Koran, you can see that it's obviously in favour of help. I'll even quote a few, just so there's no excuse for people not reading.

Posted by _Phoenix_
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

I'd say that quite clearly shows that Islam isn't anti-jew. What people seem to be getting mixed up is the religion at it's core, and the evil bastards that distort it and use it to their own purposes, telling kids that if they martyr themselves they'll live forever etc. Anyone that believes any religion wants you to kill people just because they don't believe as you do has problems. I feel like this bit can't be stressed enough.

More from _Phoenix_
[Quran 5:32] " we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people.
[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

I think that covers the suicide bombing and anti-jewish crap, so I'll move on.

Now to how Muslim men treat women? What exactly are you talking about? Not trying to start an arguement by avoiding the point, just asking for you to make it clearer. And again, what some people do isn't what every Muslim does. Just saying. And if it sounds like I've repeated this a thousand times, I probably have, as this topic is a sore point for me - know a couple Muslim girls, and from what I've seen they're not subjugated or treated like they're worthless. So, yeah.

Honor killings I'm not even going to start on, because there's no defence for them. If someone does that, they have problems, and need to reread whatever hold book they're reading from.

Ok, last point, Mohammed marrying Aisha when she was 9. The man lived 1500 years ago, I'm sure everyone knows that things were different, the culture was different back then. As far as I can remember Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, a friend of Mohammed's. The marriage was in one way, to strengthen ties between the men, as far as I'm aware marriages were often used back then to establish or strengthen links between two families, or communities. A I said earlier though, it was 1500 odd years back, so it's only natural that things that are seen as unacceptable now, were commonplace then. And, we're judging them by the set of values we have now..

Sorry for any incoherance, it's 3am so my arguements perhaps aren't my clearest.

Edit: I'm not pro Muslim, as I don't see it's anything to be for or against. I just see it as a religion that has bad press thanks to some extremists, and sadly some people don't seem to be able to separate extremists from the Muslim population in general. Thansk a lot MSM. I'll admit, I don't agree with quite a lot in Islam, but, I don't agree with the idea that it's the world's greatest evil either. So, yeah. Take from all this what you will. And thanks to anyone who's actually bothered to read this.

[edit on 20-1-2009 by DarkPassenger]

reply to post by DarkPassenger

This should cover that "one flaw". It is called Taqiyya. It is MAINSTREAM ISLAM. It basically allows a practicing Muslim to LIE to outsiders.

There is nothing in the bible that tells a Christian it is ok to lie and deceive. This is not true in the Qu'ran. In fact, unless you are Muslim you are not intended to be let in the loop on this one.

Taqiyya

reply to post by CreeWolf


My understanding of taqiyya is that it allows Muslim's to hide their faith if they're in fear of persecution for their beliefs. I fail to see a problem.

See here for the quote below.

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

(1)

I'm sorry, but I fail to see a problem. According to here, the idea is based on writing from 3:28 and , which I believe says:

[3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny.

[16:106] Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.

So..what's the problem? The bible isn't exactly innocent if you're looking at sins in the religions, do I need to remind people of the verses that condone selling your daughters into slavery? There's flaws in every religion.

Also, if I can ask, do you have a problem with the religion in general, or just the extremists that some people see as the face of the entire religion?

[edit on 20-1-2009 by DarkPassenger]

reply to post by CreeWolf

Cree, well done. Gamer, you keep swinging.

Very few find it interesting that Muslims teach their god is the same God of Judiasm/Christianity, and yet the teachings of Allah are the exact antithesis of Judiasm/Christianity.

It can't be the same God.

There are many things a Muslim is allowed to do that non-Muslims aren't, and while lying is one of them, killing non-Muslims is perfectly fine as well.

It would appear that the Muslim Allah as taught by Muhammed, was in fact a creation to reflect the actions of Muhammed at that moment in his life.

Hey, when I'm busy raping captives, raping captives is OK by Allah.

Hey, when I'm having hot pants for my daughter-in-law, incest is OK by Allah.

Hey, when I'm looting, looting is OK by Allah.

When I'm killing Jews, killing Jews is commanded by Allah.

On and on.

The problem arose on his deathbed. Talk about a feud over who would continue to get and control all that income Muhammed had set up . . . there was more double-dealing and outright lying to take control of that racket . . . and thus the Shia sect and the Sunni sect.

All over who would control the money.

Gamer and Cree - many women are more likely to perceive the "danger" of dominion and acceptance of this meme. The men who don't get it have a hole in their understanding, a hole that is squarely based on the fact that even if this dominion happened, THEY would still get something out of it. Complete domination of their families, and ownership of women. They still are part of the overall "reward system." Therefore, they do not perceive the threat. No matter how the chips fall, they get paid off.

Never expect that people who stand to profit from your oppression are going to willingly look hard at their own motives.

reply to post by GamerGal


What would you say the cause of those deaths are? Is it all due to one thing, or many socio-economic factors?

Could the creation of borders and seperating of lands have anything to do with the conflicts?

Originally posted by dooper
When I'm killing Jews, killing Jews is commanded by Allah.

Source? If you post another fake Surrah that doesn't even exist in the Quran, so help me I will never stop laughing.