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Shadow of vigilantes appears in Mexico drug war

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posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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Shadow of vigilantes appears in Mexico drug war


news.yahoo.com

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico (Reuters) – Shadowy vigilante groups are threatening Mexico's drug gangs near the U.S. border in retaliation for a wave of murders and kidnappings that killed 1,600 people in this city alone last year.

One group in the border city of Ciudad Juarez pledged last week to "clean our city of these criminals" and said their mission was to "end the life of a criminal every 24 hours."

The emergence of vigilantes would be a new twist to a vicious drug war that killed 5,700 people in Mexico last year and forced the United States to give hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to the Mexican government.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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We need more vigilantes. I think if we had vigilante groups in each and every city, there would probably be less crime. Laws don't work, and cops don't work. We need something new. We need something that gets the message across that we are no longer going to take anyone's crap.
Good for these people that are taking matters into their own hands. At least some people have the will to stand up and fight for what they believe in.

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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This is very interesting. The drug syndicates in and around Ciudad Juarez (and Mexico in its entirety) have faced no real opposition, and have flourished as a result. I cannot imagine living in that area--Ciudad Juarez has become a hell on earth. I've wondered about the absence of a civilian force to confront this, and I suppose they've finally had enough. Let's hope this is effective in undermining the drug lords and their associates.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by Oreyeon

We need more vigilantes. I think if we had vigilante groups in each and every city, there would probably be less crime. Laws don't work, and cops don't work.


It might work in mexico for a bit but I prefer living in a city without any kind of death squads, thank you very much. It wouldn't take long for a vigilante gang to become what they have been fighting.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by Oreyeon
We need more vigilantes. I think if we had vigilante groups in each and every city, there would probably be less crime. Laws don't work, and cops don't work. We need something new. We need something that gets the message across that we are no longer going to take anyone's crap.
Good for these people that are taking matters into their own hands. At least some people have the will to stand up and fight for what they believe in.


The problem with vigilantes is that they don't obey laws. If we had vigilantes running loose, they would be dictating their own laws, and not the ones that are set.

Vigilantism may look good to you, and maybe they will be benevolent at first, but they will then make up their own rules. Why? Because power corrupts, especially if you can get away with it by being the law. Becoming the very thing these vigilantes are fighting, gangs who don't obey the law.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by Neaux

Originally posted by Oreyeon

The problem with vigilantes is that they don't obey laws. If we had vigilantes running loose, they would be dictating their own laws, and not the ones that are set.



As I understand it, as well as the drug gangs running around killing, many of the police are corrupt and either working alongside the drug cartels or turning a blind eye to their activities for payoffs. If those who are supposed to uphold the law fail to do so then there comes a time when the citizens must take the law into their own hands and stamp out the corruption as it is them that get caught in the crossfire.
Much as we don't like to think of armed vigilantes operating outside the law, perhaps it's a good thing as someone is finally cleaning house.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by Oreyeon
We need more vigilantes. I think if we had vigilante groups in each and every city, there would probably be less crime. Laws don't work, and cops don't work. We need something new. We need something that gets the message across that we are no longer going to take anyone's crap.
Good for these people that are taking matters into their own hands. At least some people have the will to stand up and fight for what they believe in.


Well seeing as Mexico is nearing collapse, with most police officers/soldiers either in the pocket of the Cartels or abandoning their posts in the face of increasing Crtel brutality vigilanteism may be the only viable solution to safeguard the Mexican public:
However, as others have pointed out, vigilanteism has its own problems:
Accountability: Remember that vigilantes condemn and attack others in reference to their own moral views - this is all well and good when the "enemies" are Cartel enforcers, drug dealers etc:
But what happens when a vigilante group declares that "homsexuals are symbols of the decadence of Mexican society"? When bodies of "thieves" start turning up that have been brutally tortured?
The Cartels: As much as I'd like to believe that these vigilantes have the integrity, skill and disconnection from society as the archetypal vigilante the Punisher - can we expect that men and women with families and friends (even ex-police or military) will stand firm against Cartel cash and brutality? Would you rather want a payment under the table from a Cartel to turn a blind-eye towards their activity, or find your "missing" brother and his family in bodybags on your doorstep?
Corruption: Neaux pointed out that absolute power corrupts absolutely - the vigilantes have to get their funds from somewhere, so let's say that they desire a "protection" payment for neighbourhoods they patrol:
As they soon realise the power they have over their designated "fiefs", can we expect that they will not became like the Mafia in Sicily (who arose to protect the Sicilian peasantry against the ravages of various foreign occupiers) - exerting a stranglehold over those they used to protect, development doesn't happen without vigilante "consent" etc?
Social Cleansing: As mentioned above in Accountability, vigilante groups - with little governmental opposition and an eventual vacuum of Cartel "baddies" to fight - will be reluctant to give up the newfound power they have. What happens next? Social cleansing.
"Social cleansing" is (of course) the "social" equivalent to ethnic cleansing, developed in Central/South America - with little government opposition, death squads swiftly arose to cleanse their respective societies of those deemed "dangerous", or "deviant", like the homeless, opposition party supporters, homosexuals etc.
Politics: If things worsen further, anything or anyone that limits the influence of the Cartels will be supported, either legally or financially by the Mexican government:
That's all well and good when Cartel forces and the Mexican police force/army are blazing away/butchering each other, but what happens when the government wins? Facing both high unemployment, and thousands of vigilantes without support? Give it a few weeks, and you can expect AmnestyInternational to uncover the..."underhanded" means at which former vigilante groups are "encouraging" support for the current government.

In the short term, vigilanteism would be - as desperate as it is - one of the few ways to further curb Cartel influence, however in the long term it has it's own problems.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by Chaoticar
 


Oh phooey.

These vigilante groups are forming because no one else is being very effective at stopping either the drug gangs or the corrupt cops that are in collusion with them. And that includes US border agents, who are themselves the victims of armed incursions into US territory. The vigilante groups are forming as a last final resort.

All you who say this is bad in this particular case, and who are trying to spew your righteous crap around here about vigilante groups, had better get to Mexico and get shot at by drug runners AND cops before you maybe get a fricken clue. It wasn't YOUR son or daughter killed, now was it? You make me sick. These people are desperate. Desperate for ANYONE to help them get out from under the death grip the gangs have them in hostage.

In testimony before House subcommittee, which I saw myself, there have been over 330 armed Mexican military incursions across the US border. I remember one case where the US border patrol agents had busted a bunch of drugrunners with a huge truckload stash, when all of a sudden they were surrounded by Mexican military with machine guns who promptly took their people, and their drugs, right back to Mexico.

In this particular case, no amount of your speculation on what the vigilantes will do AFTER they clean up the mess applies. It's garbage frankly, and I don't wanna hear it. They are desperate. And brave. And not illegals crossing the border even despite being shot at, killed, raped, mugged, and virtually imprisoned in their own towns by these thugs.

I suppose you would rather them just lay down and die, just so that your righteous views on vigilantism can shine. Well how about you go help them, huh? or STFU. Sick of this really.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 03:56 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican
These vigilante groups are forming because no one else is being very effective at stopping either the drug gangs or the corrupt cops that are in collusion with them. And that includes US border agents, who are themselves the victims of armed incursions into US territory. The vigilante groups are forming as a last final resort.


I do believe I mentioned that:

Well seeing as Mexico is nearing collapse, with most police officers/soldiers either in the pocket of the Cartels or abandoning their posts in the face of increasing Cartel brutality vigilanteism may be the only viable solution to safeguard the Mexican public:


"Vigilantes" are a symptom of a collapsing society, or one nearing anarchy:
In a healthy, well-policed and well-governed society there isn't a need for vigilantes, as criminals are apprehended judiciously by the designated police forces - with minimum corruption of said police forces.
In an unhealthy, badly-policed and badly-governed society the police - either through large-scale corruption or inability to police to their full extent - cannot apprehend or prosecute the majority of criminals, often leading to national collapse.

This is the reason why vigilantes are forming in Mexico, and not forming in the United States.


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
All you who say this is bad in this particular case, and who are trying to spew your righteous crap around here about vigilante groups, had better get to Mexico and get shot at by drug runners AND cops before you maybe get a fricken clue.


"Righteous crap"?
I was merely illustrating the point that vigilanteism is not a silver bullet:
At the end of the day, vigilantes are as human as you and me - they can be bribed, they can get drunk on their own power, they can become as much of a menace as the Cartels they battle.

I know damn well that Mexico is a dangerous place, but suggesting that "vigilantes can only bring good to Mexico" - without considering the negatives - is the same kind of thinking as the Westerners that cheered the Communist overthrow of the despotic Emperor of Russia had:

I ask you to remember that the infamous Sicilian Mafia arose from the same fathers, brothers, sons, cousins, friends that got tired of seeing their helpless brethren, the Sicilian peasantry (Mexican public) suffer at the hands of brutal, unaccountable foreign occupiers (Cartels) without any way to avenge the wrongs:
Thousands of deaths, billions in criminal revenue later etc I suppose the Sicilian Mafica was SLAGIATT (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time).


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
It wasn't YOUR son or daughter killed, now was it? You make me sick. These people are desperate. Desperate for ANYONE to help them get out from under the death grip the gangs have them in hostage.


The French peasantry were desperate, the Russian middle, working and peasant classes were desperate, the German public were desperate, the Palestinians are desperate.

Again, I loathe the Cartels with every inch of my being:
However, just remember that the same conditions applied to the Sicilian Mafia...


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
In testimony before House subcommittee, which I saw myself, there have been over 330 armed Mexican military incursions across the US border. I remember one case where the US border patrol agents had busted a bunch of drugrunners with a huge truckload stash, when all of a sudden they were surrounded by Mexican military with machine guns who promptly took their people, and their drugs, right back to Mexico.


Don't forget the role of the Mexican government in illegal immigration:
Or that "where there's a Mexican, there's Mexico" - yes American, the drug war will move north to Aztlan - I mean, the south-western United States.


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
In this particular case, no amount of your speculation on what the vigilantes will do AFTER they clean up the mess applies.


I don't want long-term effects I want results, dammit!.


This is the same peculiar brand of lunacy that lead to Robert Mugabe's Utopia - I don't care if he's Hitler's clone, just get rid of that damned white minority Rhodesian government!.


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
It's garbage frankly, and I don't wanna hear it. They are desperate. And brave. And not illegals crossing the border even despite being shot at, killed, raped, mugged, and virtually imprisoned in their own towns by these thugs.


Hey, you might be right:
Maybe the vigilantes will just surrender their duties to the new (and corruption-free) Mexican police force - but shouldn't we consider the consequences if we don't?


Originally posted by TrueAmerican
I suppose you would rather them just lay down and die, just so that your righteous views on vigilantism can shine. Well how about you go help them, huh? or STFU. Sick of this really.


A fiery end to a fiery argument:
For the third time, I'll repeat my statement that at the moment, vigilanteism may be the only autonomous way for Mexico to cleanse itself of Cartel control/influence. I want to believe that the ordinary Mexican citizen can finally get his payback on the brutal cartels, and will happily lay his arms down when Mexico gets off its' feet again - however, I do realise that life isn't like a movie at all.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 04:32 AM
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if thing got as bad in the US as they are in mexico now i would do it too.

vigilante law is something that has happened in the US and may happen again iF the government losses control.

the James Younger gang found this out when they tried to rob the First National Bank of Northfield Minnesota.
en.wikipedia.org...

you also had group like the The Bald Knobbers, an 1880s

the Regulator movement of American colonial times.

In the 1850s, the San Francisco Vigilance Movement was an example of secretive groups of vigilantes who cleaned up city streets of crime.

In 1981, a resident of the rural town Skidmore, Missouri fatally shot town bully Ken McElroy in broad daylight after years of crimes without any punishment. Forty five people witnessed the shooting, but everybody kept quiet when it came time to identify the shooter.

Now you have cyber vigilante groups like Perverted Justice
www.nysun.com...

in the UK they have THE NATIONAL VIGILANTE ORGANISATION
www.navigor.org.uk...


Cyberwar Posse
www.dodbuzz.com...

www.techdirt.com...
even EBay.
www.techdirt.com...

Then you have some white hat hackers/IT professionals that get p****ed when someone messes with there computers and some have been known to get even and then some.

Vigilantes will alway be out there and are needed to push the government to do there job.
If the gov does there job there will be few of them
but if the government does not they will come out of the woodwork and wreak havoc.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 05:23 AM
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When the law of the land and those that enforce it are incompetant, useless, or cowardly or corrupted, it is your human right to protect yourself and those around you. From what I have seen and heard about what going on in these towns I fully support these people taking back their towns by force.


One group in the border city of Ciudad Juarez pledged last week to "clean our city of these criminals" and said their mission was to "end the life of a criminal every 24 hours."


To the people of Ciudad Juarez I say Rave on!


[edit on 20/1/09 by Pfeil]



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by ANNED
 


Wanky old Nazigor is a front for the fascist BNP. Run by a BNP activist. This is the true face of vigilantism. Lunatic far right thugs pursuing their own agenda



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by Pfeil
When the law of the land and those that enforce it are incompetant, useless, or cowardly or corrupted, it is your human right to protect yourself and those around you. From what I have seen and heard about what going on in these towns I fully support these people taking back their towns by force.


One group in the border city of Ciudad Juarez pledged last week to "clean our city of these criminals" and said their mission was to "end the life of a criminal every 24 hours."


To the people of Ciudad Juarez I say Rave on!


I wholeheartedly agree with the above poster who said that vigilantism is a symptom of a broken society and therefore not a cure. It's amusing how people can become absorbed by popular culture and suddenly feel as though the perfect prescription for life's woes is to resort to what is fantastical behaviour from an imaginary world with no real consequences. Do people honestly think that all vigilante groups have a mandate or can be controlled in any manner? Do some here naively believe that a Bruce Wayne type billionaire philantrophist will adopt an alter-ego, fight crime with the most noblest of doctrine with the express remit to restore law and order? In fact the film "The Dark Knight" in fairness does explore the dilemma of one taking the law upon oneself. If one follows the film to its end, we see that it follow a rather prominent theme; which is of escalation. Which brings me to my next subject. It seems in 2006 the Mexican president issued a statement to the country that he would try and root out the drug cartels and rid the country of these criminal elements. Well, he's tried to do so by mobilising the Mexican Army to wage this war against the drug cartels. Well, if one looks at various news sources around the world we can easily see how well this 'war on crime' has progressed. It has proceeded very badly with tremendous loss of life. All that has happened is that a high number of gun battles have taken place across the country and rather than having the effect of subuing the cartels; this new war that is being waged has simply plunged the country into further chaos, mayhem and carnage.

See here:


Last week during the day, some kids in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, were playing soccer in a park when a car slowed down, guys got out and executed a 13-year-old boy. And then they drove away, unmolested in a city with 11,000 army and police officers.


C.N.N


Here's a piece from a B.B.C article:


Most Mexicans believe their government is losing its "war on drugs", three and a half years after the newly-elected Felipe Calderon made it his priority.


B.B.C

Now, if a heavily armed Mexican Army has not been able to topple these drug cartels. What hope in hell does a vigilante group have of beating them? I loathe the wording "War on.." because it's crass, banal and invariably intellectually bankrupt. Unfortunately, it's quite an American notion where one simply needs the most heaviest firepower to overcome any situation. Afterall, the U.S was founded on an armed insurrection against the British whom it defeated. Later in history it again triumphed against a far more nefarious foe, the combined Axis powers through its strength of arms. Some would even say the 'Wild West' was tamed/culled by the use of firearms. Still, I think it is very folly to approach a situation with a very myopic and limited mindset which is predisposed to only one method. The drugs problem is a multi-faceted one which requires all the tools at one's disposal and not simply ones of a limited range.



[edit on 21/6/10 by Retro~Burn]



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Retro~Burn

Now, if a heavily armed Mexican Army has not been able to topple these drug cartels. What hope in hell does a vigilante group have of beating them?


A lot more than the people in the Mexican army who are underpaid, have their families threatened and are kidnapped to be killed. The people who are supposed to do some thing, are pressured not to.

In steps the people who no one knows, threatening leverage can't be used, and scare tactics are rendered useless. Now the Cartels are off guard and have no idea as to a response, because for once they are the targets.



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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I would like to add that if the Mexican government (1) wishes to stamp out the drug cartels then they need to involve far more resources than their military. They need to focus on improving the standard of life and equal opportunities for everyone. Improve their transportation infrastructure, focus on exports to help bolster their economy. Improve education so that every graduate have greatly improved employment prospects. A skilled labour market is a successful one. If some parts of the country do not have drinking water, electricity or proper sanitation then make sure it is provided. For the farmers who rely on their 'drug crops'; whether it be marijuana or opium (heroin) then their crops should be re-planted with more viable and legal crops. The more benefits the government provides for the populace which includes security, employment, healthcare/welfare and basic utilities. If one pays attention to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs model as a very rough approximation or template then one has a sense of what the government needs to do for its people. The final point I'd like to make is that due to the accumulation of wealth and power by the drug cartels. In particular its shipping of drugs north across the border to the U.S. They have acquired a vast cache of arms, including very heavy arms which include heavy machineguns and rocket launchers. It is clear that to undermine such a cancerous entity, one needs far more than bullets and bombs. One needs the people on their side. Once that goal is achieved, the battle and thus the 'war' (*sigh*) is alreadly half won.

1. Including the U.S government for that matter.



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by ADVISOR

Originally posted by Retro~Burn

Now, if a heavily armed Mexican Army has not been able to topple these drug cartels. What hope in hell does a vigilante group have of beating them?


A lot more than the people in the Mexican army who are underpaid, have their families threatened and are kidnapped to be killed. The people who are supposed to do some thing, are pressured not to.

In steps the people who no one knows, threatening leverage can't be used, and scare tactics are rendered useless. Now the Cartels are off guard and have no idea as to a response, because for once they are the targets.



However, if a gang or a vigilante group operate over time, it would only be a matter of time before the cartels find a weakness. A family member of a senior figure could easily be kidnapped for ransom or killed. All about which you're talking there is one gang pitted against a much bigger gang. I believe many people are being carried away by this romantic notion of resisting against the drug cartels because it's the most emotionally attraction option and of course in the grand scheme of things, it's rather facile. Simply resorting to violence will only encourage a greater response in kind. This emergency needs to stop being viewed as a damn war and more as a crisis which needs a multi-pronged approach. One isn't dealing with cowboys wearing red sashes, riding through the country pillaging as they go. One is faced with corruption, poverty, intimidation, an insatiable appetite for narcotics and a near flatlining economy. Taking up arms in one town may appeal to one's irrational side but in the whole gamut of problems, it won't make a blind bit of difference. In fact, it'll only exacerbate matters. It's both amusing and dispiriting. You tell people they need to use their .s but they interpret it literally so they try to physically .butt the problem.



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by ADVISOR
 


I agree with your assessment.

Fear of the unknown can be a powerful tool.



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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That is awesome? It's kinda like the League of Shadows from Batman... It's nice to see somebody in Mexico stepping up to the plate, while their Government doesn't seem to be dealing with the problem and simply exports their problems here.



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 07:52 PM
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aren't problems like this a reason why we have militias?

Amendment II


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

US Constitution

Why don't we send in the militia?

On the US side of course. Since the FEDS are having trouble protecting the border. I know this is the Mexican side, but why don't these vigilante groups do what their doing, and the militia of AZ sandwich these cartels on the US side.

EDIT: Clarity

[edit on 6/21/2010 by ugie1028]



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 08:13 PM
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there is no way to beat the drug cartels AT THEIR OWN GAME

the "war on drugs" is a non-war, i thought most everyone agreed....

same thing across the border only more like real war.

the only way to put a stop to the runaway train is to take away the incentive for the drug lords.

which is, of course, money, riches, profit, gain.
same thing that weakens any potential opposition to the suppression of their neighbors and communities.

so how do you take a away the incentive to make money trafficking illegal drugs??????????????????

ask an ex-mobster, if there are any still around who were rollin' during prohibition.

how do you take the incentive away from running a speak easy or rum running to the border?

lift prohibition

legalize drugs
make it no longer such a scarcity and a risk for the users to obtain and subject it to the law of supply and demand. too much supply is never a profitable market.



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