John Titor said "The Next President tries to be the next Lincoln" Is there any doubt Civil War is

You can't be on ATS for long with out hearing about John Titor. I never really believed one way or another though. There just was not enough events to prove anything either way. I had not thought of JT for a long time.

I have to admit, after reading your post, I went through and reread everything while adding 4 years to everything. SPOOKY! Im now a believer. He has even nailed the current events with Israel.

I suggest everyone take time to reread it this way before closing your mind to it. I was not much of a believer before, but now, in this context, there is just too much there.

thanks for making me reread it.

What will those who believe do IF the "add four years" theory does not bear out?

I am not bashing the whole Titor thing, I am interested in why people believe what they do, and how they deal with contradictory evidence.

Would you guys still believe but think the timeline had changed?

Would a new amount of years be chosen to make the predictions accurate?

Or would you revise your belief in the John Titor phenomenon altogether?


If the add four years theory is correct, we will begin a civil war this year, so we dont have long to wait to see if the add four years theory holds.

John Titor is an incredible writer. His story lasted well and still continues to stir many people's imaginations. I enjoyed the read and interactive tail. There's no reason others can't enjoy it too; but...if you want to know the real history behind Titor then perhaps you should take a look at Damn Interesting.

The article I've linked too should be read along with the comments because they contain details about the original Titor story along with Titor's original fax sent to Art Bell which depicting events as Titor "saw and remembered them" along with Titor's follow-up, revised, fax which has several differences.

The article's comments also go into detail of how the original interactors with Titor tracked Titor through his IP address.

The direct link to the comment that includes the faxes:

Fax One Extract:

Dear Art ,
I had to fax when I heard other time travelers calling in from any time past
the year 2500 AD.
please let me explain….

Time travel was invented in 2034
off shoots of certain successful fusion reactor research allowed scientists at CERN to produce the worlds first contained singularity engine.

The basic design involves rotating singularities inside a magnetic feild.
By altering the speed and direction
of rotation you can travel both forward and backward in time...

Second Fax Extract:

Dear Mr. Bell I am glad you 're back. I faxed this information to you the day before you left the air. I wanted to make sure it was n't lost in the shuffle so I am sending a gift.
If you've already seen this please accept my apologies if you choose to make this public please do not publish the fax number.
I had to fax when I heard the other time traveler calling in from the recent time past infact the year 2500 Ad.
Let me explain…
Mr. Bell I sent a fax with this opening on July 29 1998.
As I said then I am a time traveler. I have been on this world line since April of this year and I plan to leave soon....

Considering that it was a hoax, it has been quite a good, long lasting one. When the film's out, I'll watch it. Pity he can't send us a preview of it.

I was on the original thread of Titor's back in the day..
It was a fantastic read. Even if it was true or not there was excellent theories being discussed and some intriguing pictures of his machine (with government schematics)

The crux was:- There is a viable multiverse. CERN discover the means to traverse time. GE create the Time Machine. He came back (in fact he stopped off in 2000, before going back to 78? to pick up an IBM pc).

All the people after who have claimed to be TT's have never held their own against criticism like Titor did (and there have been many.. LOL)

I've still got my notes off the original thread somewhere (I'll have to search my files)

Edited date.. Doh.. Must have Titorism

[edit on 21/1/2009 by UKWO1Phot]

Originally posted by MasterRegal
I thought we established Titor to be a massive fraud who lured the weak-minded into a fantasy world.

So, you're the one that debunked Titor then?

I would really like to know where all this "proof" of a hoax is located? Did you get a confession from the original poster or is this "proof" simply more supposition based on the posts? I will remind you that supposition is not proof and never has been here on ATS.

So, because the time lines don't jive makes it a hoax? The guy says in his fax to Art Bell that he's from 2500 AD. So it's not that he can't remember when the Lincoln-esque president was from 2034 to 2009 it's 2500 to 2009. There's a Big difference there. Besides that, hes a freakin' kid around ten now apparently. I didn't care about presidents until it affected me, meaning when I could vote. Also, his world goes to hell when he's 14. Do you remember being 14? Was there a world war when you were that age? Were you forced to take up a shotgun and fight?

Now, I'm no Titor scholar or anything, but the coincidences are eerie. the whole Lincoln thing strikes a nerve in a non-skeptic like me.

All the nay-sayers should maybe not be so venomous in their posts. "Weak-minded"? No, I'm not weak of mind and I resent your assertion that anyone who remains open to the possibility that science takes us beyond your small world is ridiculous.

Originally posted by titorite
reply to post by Luciferdescending

 

Dude, your on a stomping spree. I don't think the referenced poster was saying anything of the sort.

It did not feel like stomping. It felt quite like a gentle stroll really. As far as a spree? I dunno, what does wikipedia define 'spree' as exactly? Relax, maybe you are just reading more angrily than you should. Take a breath and try again.

Look if you don't believe the story why are you here other than to dump on those that Believe John Titor was being honest...

Because ATS covers a great many topics that I enjoy reading about, some I enjoy commenting on, and a few I cannot stand to see go on. Do I need to justify myself to you? Why? If you do not like me poking logical holes in your little fantasy, perhaps you should not engage it on a website with the slogan "deny ignorance."

Why are you here if not to worship a man that lied to make money off of people not smart or resourceful enough to see through it? Your screen name says it all. You apparently have one big interest and it is this fraudster. Psssssst, guess what, Titor was one of those subjects that I used to enjoy reading about. Honestly, I thought it was a fascinating story and the dedication and follow through almost had me convinced. Why would someone try so hard to pass on such detailed info about BS? So tell me, why are you here but to promote him? I have read your posts. You are not here for open and honest debate. You are not here to learn the truth. You are not here to hear any opposition to this tale. You already know the whole story and you already know it is true. So why are you here if you have nothing new to learn about your hero but to make sure people continue interest and buy his book?

I don't think this negative bashing banter gets anyone anywhere...

I do not think that promoting a charlatan gets anyone anywhere either. I do not think that selling snake oil gets us anywhere. I do not think that anything Titor related gets us anywhere. It is making someone some easy money but for the rest of us...nothing.

I am not on a bashing spree. I just have two thoughts. One day, someone like you will point out the obvious hole in my logic that proves he is a liar and plagiarist or, someone like you will agree that I made such a good point that you are thinking differently. Either way will make me happy as long as it is the truth as best as we can fully understand it. Until then, I am going to poke this ugly bear every time it wanders into my yard.

Originally posted by drphilxr
titor is not his real name.

All except for his still quite active lawyer apparently.

Originally posted by Rapacity
John Titor is an incredible writer. His story lasted well and still continues to stir many people's imaginations.

See, this is why I am on a "spree." Imagine if I was posting about what a great writer some guy named intenethoax21 was. I go on about how interesting and amazing a writer he is because of how detailed, or compelling, or truthish, or whatever it is. Then I describe a story by stephen king or clive barker. What would you think?

Considering that it was a hoax, it has been quite a good, long lasting one. When the film's out, I'll watch it. Pity he can't send us a preview of it.

There is a very good reason there will never be a film about it. Then credit will have to be given to Pat Frank who is actually the very good writer behind Titor's amazing tales.

I guess it makes me a spoilsport, no fun, and I am sure the mods will be smacking my hand soon for this but I hate to see a proven liar and fraud who lied and stole to make money get credit for being good at something other than stealing and lying.

Originally posted by Luciferdescending
Until then, I am going to poke this ugly bear every time it wanders into my yard.

That is the exact kinda crap I am preaching against.... SIGH... FOrgive my lack of example BUt I feel the poem "A soldiers winter" was kind of a clinching point.

And just because my screen name is what it is does not mean I do not have other interests. IN FACT if you click onto my profile and scroll through my posting history you'll find that I am a generally well rounded poster with a variety of interests. Your right about me having a big interest in Titor though. I was the first one to call bob of project mercury. I organized meet ups. I am what you could call an activist...Still...

The question of the day is do people think a civil war is a coming....

I do... and yes I partially base that assertion on the word of Titor. Hell, one doesn't need to be a time traveler to see the writing on Americas walls.

Originally posted by UKWO1Phot


All the people after who have claimed to be TT's have never held their own against criticism like Titor did (and there have been many.. LOL)

I've still got my notes off the original thread somewhere (I'll have to search my files)

Edited date.. Doh.. Must have Titorism

I do have to admit, he outshines them all. Titor has left so many others in the dust with his tale. It was just tight enough. Since you bring it up, I have the original thread, every post he made, his correspondence with C2C, his photos, schematics, basically everything except the for sale book. So, if anyone can think of anything in there that proves his story, feel free to shoot, if it can legally be posted here, I can do that.

Originally posted by titorite

I do... and yes I partially base that assertion on the word of Titor. Hell, one doesn't need to be a time traveler to see the writing on Americas walls.

Whether or not we have a civil war ever is no longer relevant to Titor. Either what he said would happen was going to happen exactly how and when, or it was a different worldline and does not matter anyway. So either he predicted a war when we should have had one because he knew of it or....something was different. You really want to step into the ring with that logic? That something was different but even though something as subtle as me making a red light today will cause a year from now to be 10000000000000000000000000000% different that if I had not made the light, somehow, amazingly the only difference between our worldline and his is that all the clocks are set 4 years back? Come on, seriously? You are not even trying. You go on to tell us what a well rounded poster you are just before launching into what a Titor "activist" you are. What were you trying to prove again? That you are not just a huge Titor fan? Right, most well rounded posters are also activists for fraudulent booksellers right? Everyone please state what fraudulent books you are an "activist" in selling as that is apparently just part of every common ATSer's daily life right? Try harder not to trample on your own points like Titor did and you might have something. Until then, what are you doing here besides trying to sell this man to us? I answered your questions honestly, however invalid they were. Thanks for lacking the same courtesy in response.

I think it was well pointed out above and elsewhere that people like you have nowhere to go if it turns out he was a liar. You are so emotionally invested in this guy (or financially it seems) that you can no longer see it rationally. You are either in on the deal and this is part of the act, or you have crossed from interested student to fanboy. It is one thing to discuss the sci fi fantasies these folks come up with, it is another to have it become such a part of our own identity that no evidence against it will ever be good enough.

Honestly, is there anything that could ever convince you this man was full of it?

Originally posted by Luciferdescending
...Then I describe a story by stephen king or clive barker. What would you think? ...

"Alas, Babylon" said that no WMDs would be found in Iraq?

"Alas, Babylon" said that Stephen Hawking would change his mind about black holes?

"Alas, Babylon" said that CERN would start talking about creating mini black holes?

"Alas, Babylon" said that "non-lethal" weapons would turn out to be quite lethal?

"Alas, Babylon" said that the question we would face would be "how much liberty are we willing to give up for security?"

"Alas, Babylon" said that by the end of 2008, people knew that the life they thought they were living was over?

I could go on, but why bother.

I really don't mind people pointing out those predictions that Titor got wrong such as the Olympics, and one other one that escapes my mind at the moment (And I'm not talking about the civil war either, that's best left for another thread), but they do NOT give him credit for the ones that he got right.

How ignorant.

Oh, and BTW, his "Lincoln" comment was CLEARLY meant for the time-frame of Bush, not Obama.

I want you all to re-read the Titor archives and add 4 years to whenever he posted a date...you will crap your pants.

Is Israel at war with its neighbors? and has Israel lost public support from its so called allies?

Titor said that Israel is the key.

Re Read It.

[edit on 21-1-2009 by Where2Hide2006]

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
I really don't mind people pointing out those predictions that Titor got wrong such as the Olympics, and one other one that escapes my mind at the moment (And I'm not talking about the civil war either, that's best left for another thread), but they do NOT give him credit for the ones that he got right.

Because everything he got right was knowledge that was already available elsewhere. So if I write a lame story about a killer clown but then add a passage about WMDs then I have now made up a whole new story? Just because he added to it does not mean he did not steal a lot of it. Please re-read Alas Babylon and re-read JT's musings of his life in he future. If you still think he happened to make up so much stuff that was already written then the man was not only from the future, but also able to add details to the stuff he read and then wrote as his own original work.

He did not ever get anything "right." He spoke of things that physicists knew of such as the experiments that CERN would be doing long before you knew about it but it was not before I am many others knew about it. While people like you were sitting here amazed at the crazy things he apparently had forknowledge of, many of us were sitting here chuckling and wondering where he read this stuff because we all knew it was not everyone who was aware of this stuff. He was not from the future or psychic or even that good at predicting anything. He was just good at reading and then writing that stuff down again with a few new details.

I hope you have all run out and bought a copy of his book to support your time traveling hero. Maybe he needs the money to finish school so one of his teachers can explain to him how stupid his story really is when anyone with any sense actually pays attention to what he said. Read why JT time travelled. Read how he time traveled. Now if you cannot see why one of those cancels out the other, U2U me. I promise I can make it all clear. If you want to call me ignorant for pointing out this false worship of a liar, then please come and enlighten me.

Originally posted by zyrktec
john titor was from another timeline and there can understandably be distortions in the dates he gives. i dont know what the percentage of error would be but polls always give plus or minus 3 to 5%, i make allowances for dates and minor distortions and go by the trends he speaks about.

Titor claimed a "2% divergence" between "his" timeline and "ours". I've never been able to figure out exactly how one would quantify such a thing into percentages. "2%" of what?

nenothtu out

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
I want you all to re-read the Titor archives and add 4 years to whenever he posted a date...you will crap your pants.

So by using your 4 year rule, when civil war does not break out in America this year (2009 instead of 2005), we can finally put it all to rest and agree that Titor made a Tit out of you, or will you see fit to revamp your 4 year policy?

Perhaps you're in the habit of crapping your pants? Nasty!

Is Israel at war with its neighbors?

Oh Nooo! Tell me it isn't so... War in the middle east and Israels involved

You crack me up man!

IRM

Originally posted by PoisonousPoison
reply to post by kdial1

 

Interesting information you have really it is

Though I have one question and it pertains to black holes, being that we have not as of yet seen anything return from them and only have seen light bend when it got close to the sphere; how do you know it can be used as such a means of time travel? Granted time does/is supposed to slow down as one gets sucked into the hole, but if not even light can escape how would Titor? How would he use it? Seems to me that Titor may have been using something different - perhaps a "offshoot" of a black hole if you will.

Currently I am at a loss of words and tired beyond belief, but I figured asking those questions may help try and shed some light (for me) on the mini-black hole notion.

According to the Titor posts, he claimed that his machine contained two mini black holes he called "microsingularities". He claimed not to have interacted with them directly, but rather the fields they produced, in particular the gravitational field, to scoot around in time. Near as I recall, the microsingularities massed about 250 kg each (but I could be wrong about that), and were controlled by the injection of mass, in the form of electrons, into them, and they were contained in magnetic field "bottles" within the machine. I always wondered if that were so, how he would have swapped around a box containing 500 kg of mass in his vehicles, without raising suspicions. Not something a bowl of wheaties would help much with.

nenothtu out

Originally posted by nenothtu

Titor claimed a "2% divergence" between "his" timeline and "ours". I've never been able to figure out exactly how one would quantify such a thing into percentages. "2%" of what?

Yeah go figure! Perhaps a percentage of error from 2036 to the date of the alleged 'prophecy'? Seems reasonable to assume as much given Titor talks about time...

So lets look at one prophecy such as the US Civil War in 2005 apply the 2% time rule.


Simple Equation:
2036 - 2005 = 31 Years
31 x 365.25 = 11322.75 Days
11322.75 x 2% = 226.445 Days

Divergence = 226.445 Days

Not even 1 year!

Whoops - so much for the 4 year rule that the Titorites have clung so dearly to!

IRM

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Whoops - so much for the 4 year rule that the Titorites have clung so dearly to!

IRM

So this is what we are going to call it now I guess, the 4 year rule. The 2% thing always bothered me because anyone can try on any given day to recreate the same circumstances and change the variables involved one at a time. It is of course far from perfect and not the most scientific but just live 2 days over and change one thing. If the end of that day is any less than 100% different, you never got out of bed either day. I could never understand how 31 years out from just one deviation could still produce a world that would be 98% similar.

He had a good story but he got lazy on the details he was not as interested in. He wanted to tell us about our world and our future but the logic he already gave us meant he had to be from a different future or we from a different past. He lazily skips over this 2%thing and goes on to tell us about our future anyway and people like Titorite never once consider where the hell he got the number 2 from or as was stated above, how it is quantified exactly. Why does that not bother these people? How would they know if a deer ran through the forest behind my house right now. Perhaps in another worldline, a series of events lead to a car being there when that deer went to cross the main road and therefore he turns back. The rest of that deer's future is completely different now and no one would ever know but somehow in 2036 they can calculate exactly how many different events could and would happen in time shifts and it is a miraculous 2%.

That is a LOT to try to swallow.

Firstly, I really have to point out; Titor didn't make any prophecies or predictions. He never said this is what will happen.

He talked about his own history, his own recollection of things... and generally speaking, he didn't care if anyone believed him or not. He even said it'd probably be better for people not to believe him.

So he wasn't warning or prophesying.

Secondly;

It's apparent to me that most of those who disbelieve in the possibility of John Titor being a Time Traveller have little to no understanding of the Multi-World Theorem and are actively demonstrating that they don't get the concept.

Let us suppose we have two bowls; One has an apple, a banana and an orange.

The Other has an apple, a banana, but no orange.

Is the existence of the bowl, the orange, or the banana DEPENDANT on there being an apple?

Extrapolate this to time; Let us say we have two timelines, and in both timelines there are events that transpire despite the situations in those realities being half different.

For example, the assassination of JFK. Let us say one reality, the third Reich came out of America and America is Fascist.... but JFK is still a leader and still dies.

Compare it to our own reality; So much is different most likely that it isn't recognizably the same reality, but an identical event occurs. We would weigh these similarities in favor to our own reality, giving us a percentage of Similarity.

The more similar a reality is, the more likely that large events are going to occur in a similar fashion... because they aren't dependant upon the association of unrelated events, they are dependant upon themselves.

I am attempting to dumb quantum physics and the related multi-world theorem down using analogy. I doubt I am being entirely succesful.