Has Mankind been Duped into Rejecting The only Redeemer?

reply to post by Ant4AU


I know that many will never understand this. Even if this theory was proven true people would still pray to jesus to forgive their sins. Its impossible to take something away form somone when they have built their entire personality off of it. Its like an ugly mutated twin thats grown on you for so long that removing it would probobly kill you.

I don't buy the idea that humans are fallen. I think that our problem is we actually think the world revolves around us. You assume that the cow, as he chews grass, never think about his place in the world. Humans like to believe that, because they don't come up with hour long talk shows to discuss the inner workings of their minds, animals are not only simply instinctual automatons, but that they don't feel or respond to anything BUT instinct. I've known people to actually believe that animals don't have feelings or emotions which may, to a degree, be true. But does a dog not feel it when you kick it? Have you ever seen the look of shame or fear in an animal's face when cornered or harmed in some way?

Humans are narcissistic, period. End of statement. We believe that the world could not continue to be without our numbers inhabiting it. "The end of the world" to humans is "the end of humanity". But would it really be the end of the world? Maybe, maybe not. One thing's certain, though, we don't have to wait on a god that may or may not exist to snuff us out. All of our striving for more things, better things, better lives has got us to this point with wars going on all over this planet, the planet itself about to mutiny on us, and the powers that be so corrupt that no one is left untainted. I don't believe we're lost. I believe that for all of our brain power, we are stupid, petty, and sick. Our sense of entitlement has gotten us this far.

I don't believe Jesus has anything to do with it. People will believe or they won't, and in the end I don't believe it makes one ounce of difference. It just so happens that when things start to go wrong, we need something to blame it on. In this case it happens to be an ancient belief discussed in an ancient book that humans have "fallen", but the point is that we can't possibly take responsibility ourselves. It came from a book or from god. We were born into sin. The devil made me do it. It has nothing to do with human nature. No, never. We must never admit that- "made in his image"- we are very flawed.

So your God is a theoretical scientific explanation for the universe and existence as apposed to creation
A theory… sounds like blind faith in science to me
Or maybe blind faith ‘there is no God’
Well I see also that you have a belief in infinity or eternity, as do Christians. Eternity itself denotes existence for eternity, before and after, alpha and omega, as another Greek philosopher came to the conclusion on reason alone there must be a creator, from observation of what is and how it is
But you would say life was a chemical mutation that accidentally evolved, and the universe to take orderly form and shape and beauty was a mistake?
If life was not meant to be why would an insignificant frequency be pitched perfectly for the existence of life, let there be LIGHT
Why would gravity be so specific in forming celestial bodies some creating heat and light some balancing ever so slightly an astronomical balancing act forming our solar system
In fact science has done the math on the Universal variants, calculating the slight gradient of every element and circumstance needed for life, and it is FACTUAL not THEORETICAL and the possibility of the whole existence being a mistake is as close to mathematical impossibility as it can get
But it’s a patter you say, its been around for eternity, not a creator with will and intellect
Well I guess we will see in the next life who is right and who is wrong
I suspect both of us will realize on that day that we haven’t even grasped a grain of sand of knowledge in a universe of understanding in this life

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by John Matrix

 

I have read all of your so called proof... now return the favor.

Explainable infinity

This theory combines religon and science and explains them all. We have a unified field theory!

I viewed part of it and will continue later this morning. I must say though, I have heard this before.

None of it takes away or adds to my belief that we humans are in a Fallen state and in need of a redeemer to raise the Spirit we once had back to life. Once raised to life, the Spiritual process of cleansing the soul begins. The more we centre our wills to live by the Spirit(partaking of the Divine Nature of Christ) the faster our Hearts are circumcised of the ways of the Old Sinful Nature. So we put on a Heart of Kindness, Compassion, Humility, Meekness, Patience out of our love and appreciation for Christ, and He establishes His Character in us by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
This process leads to enlightenment while we are on earth and prepares the Soul for eternity in Heaven.

Humanity has been duped into rejecting the self.

Mainstream religions teach utter dependence on God to lead, help, and judge us and hold evil forces accountable for our follies. Humanity does not require God for salvation, committing a sin and repenting does not erase the sin, learning from your mistake and not repeating it is the only way to salvation. Only when you have faith in yourself can you be strong. The world may change, but you do not. Relying on outside forces to direct will leave you defenceless.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Could it be that these are the one's that are in the deepest state of sleep? What becomes of them when their world crashes around them?
Are they not the ones most devastated when disasters strike?

Originally posted by John Matrix
Everyone has Faith in something. Some put their Faith in themselves, but when calamity strikes them, they fall to pieces. Those that truly put their Faith in Christ can still be devastated by disasters, but a true believer always has a foundation to stand on.

Those without faith are just as shaken as those with faith. Both extremes have their answers. I have seen Christian friends despise God for taking their mother, and Atheists despise the world for the same. Rest your souls. Putting faith in Christ is folly. As is faith in nothing.

Originally posted by cancerian42
Nothing is a waste.

War. Arguing on who suffers more. Separating ourselves into groups.

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Besides you are doing what the radicals and fundamentalists with trying to tear down our beliefs and force your beliefs on us.
[edit on 20-1-2009 by Ant4AU]

Every human with beliefs of any kind will eventually force them on others. It is human thinking that one's beliefs are somehow "true" when the simple existence of differing beliefs is proof that there is no one "truth".

There is no "only" Redeemer. There are billions.

reply to post by sidthekid26


Could you accept a God that was not narcissistic, sadistic, mean, arrogant, Proud, etc....say a God that has a will to all that is good honorable and just, with characteristics such as Humility, Meekness, Patience, and all Loving?

If man followed such a God and God put those characteristics in people's Hearts, wouldn't that be a stark contrast to your own description of man's character?

I believe that is exactly what God's plan is for us, but man has been deluded into believing the false teachings of religion.

I like you comments a lot, and your avatar is really cool.

reply to post by John Matrix


Well if you did that youd be ignoring the last 2000 years of christianity.

Thats alot of times that god wispered in peoples ears to slaughter others... or to pray for a cure to a disease.

And its strange because no matter how hard they pleaded for gods mercy... they still died horrible deaths.

Originally posted by Ridhya
Every human with beliefs of any kind will eventually force them on others. It is human thinking that one's beliefs are somehow "true" when the simple existence of differing beliefs is proof that there is no one "truth".

If I was to offer that you and I agree to disagree, I would not force my beliefs on you....heck...I would not do it anyway.....would You?

If you say no, then your statement must need an adjustment. Perhaps you have not run into anyone like me?

Your input it greatfully received.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Well if you did that youd be ignoring the last 2000 years of christianity.

Thats alot of times that god wispered in peoples ears to slaughter others... or to pray for a cure to a disease.

And its strange because no matter how hard they pleaded for gods mercy... they still died horrible deaths.

I cannot say that the OT killings where literal or Metaphorical. The God of the NT Covenant is not the Way the OT seems to portray Him. Perhaps the OT stories are metaphorical for the Spiritual battles we face in our own lives.
I was not there, so I cannot say whether it really happened one way or another.

Personally, I don't accept the notion that God would order His people to commit genocide.

bed time, see ya in 6 hours. 9 am central USA

reply to post by John Matrix


First, I said eventually. I'm sure in the future, assuming there is a future, even someone such as myself could let pacifism get to my head to the point I round up every warmonger and cast them into volcanoes, or something. though I'd have a much better imagination than that. I'm not saying you're forcing your beliefs but you seem to find them as truth when you're asking a rhetorical question at the end of all of your posts.

And if you disagree with me, does that not mean you hold your beliefs to be true above others? You "know" there is a god and atheists and heathens will burn? Im not telling you to agree but I cant see any sect that wont end up how I've said, or has already.

Originally posted by John Matrix
I was not there, so I cannot say whether it really happened one way or another.
Personally, I don't accept the notion that God would order His people to commit genocide.

Maybe they are two different gods. And if the Old Testament god is just a metaphor, maybe your New Testament Jesus is too? Just a thought

I do not believe in the fallen nature of mankind. Rather, I feel that mankind are children growing up and will be much more than we are today in time of course.


[edit on 20/1/2009 by toochaos4u]

Originally posted by John Matrix
Are we in a fallen state as the Bible says? If not, then why do we seek a higher state of consciousness, awakening, enlightenment, oneness with God, etc.?



Has mankind been duped into believing He can attain a higher state of being without Christ as His redeemer?

Why? Why? Why?

Yes, because it is the work of the Devil.

reply to post by John Matrix


You are so right - God is glorious Light - and Jesus is the Light of the World.

Every time I try and intoduce people to the Lord and Jesus...I just get crap.

What does that tell you - that people need to be saved but they don't want to be.

I believe in evolution, not just the survival of the fittest genetic variation but also a spiritual evolution and a mental evolution.

A some magic point in our history we 'humans' stopped being just a savage tribe and picked up tools to help us hunt, began to communicate between ourselves and started most importantly to try and understand the world around us.

From that point on it wasn't random genetic variation which gave us an advantage but our own efforts could add to our survival potential. Playing computer games will demonstrate quite well how having a plan can make the difference between living and dieing - those early humans who had a thirst for knowledge had a massive advantage over their dullard friends. So society developed rather swiftly a structure, the smarter you were the better you did.

This imbued a desire to be the smartest, soon we outgrew basic animal logic and had created belief systems and early forms of logic and rational. Soon questions like 'why does it rain' and 'how can we get more nice things' were asked, by this time the the people with all the answers were the most powerful and most respected so of course people tried to answer them. without the wide and complex understanding of things we have now they were of course going to believe some sillyness, rain gods and magic dancing.

This acted like a good stopgap and soon society was stable enough for communication to develop greatly, people began creating complex philosophys and government systems. People began debating rules and laws, having kings and god emperors -all sorts of empires and peoples united around varying systems of control and battled for survival -an evolution of nation states was in effect.

For a long time it was absolutely the only way to survive in the 'battle' for everyone to unite under one god, then times had changed and it was an advantage for the people who updated their mindset to christian morals -many lessons were discovered in the collapse of rome, a better more stable system was developed and it worked.

However like all systems it was limiting, it stopped us looking at the real effects of our actions -in the quest for eternal glory men would spend their entire life in toil, of course as a nation this was a good system for survival. Many evil deads were done in the name of the lord, crusades and inquisition the world over. We also soon reached a level of scientific understanding where we started to out grow the limitations, the rules could only bend so far and alas now we are at the point at which religion is seen to be unstable. Computers work, Spaceships work, geology works - a new understanding of our place in the world has developed.

Rather than seeing the world breaking down into chaos and ungodly fear i think we're like a butterfly breaking free of our chrysalis, we've been worms crawling on the earth for a long time, we've been growing and developing then we had a dream, a hope of glory and so we wrapped ourself up in the warm blanket of religion and very rapidly developed beauty and greatness inside of this, now as a finished holy being we have to break free of this tight webbing and spread our glorious wings and fly free and beautiful.

Matthew 24:4

And Jesus answered and said unto them,
"Take heed that no man deceive you."

We were warned to be prepared for the end times
which begins with the deception and the falling away.

Remember: LOVE + Forgiveness = Peace :up

reply to post by Wertdagf

Thats alot of times that god wispered in peoples ears to slaughter others... or to pray for a cure to a disease.

Nice post,interestingly enough this redeeming jesusgod seems to have lied in relation to prayer.

Not but once has there ever been a case of an amputee having a limb regenerated. But we already know what the BS response to this is don't we.

The jesusgod works in mysterious ways,
no amputee in history has ever had enough faith,
The jesusgod created surgeons who used prosthetics
Though shalt not test thy lord
Who says he won't do it in the future (meaning when secular scientists discover how to regenerate a limb jesusgod gets the credit.
Surgeons are already transplanting organs or sewing severed limbs back on,thank the lord.

Ah bolony BS , tell it to the guy at church in the wheelchair parting with his last ten bucks, believing his stumps are a gift from jesusgod.

I also notice that satan hasn't got in on the act and regenerated limbs, in order to deceive, like he did with the dinosours.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Are we in a fallen state as the Bible says? If not, then why do we seek a higher state of consciousness, awakening, enlightenment, oneness with God, etc.?

The animals do what they have always done and nothing more.

Mankind is different, always striving to attain some higher state than His present one.

Has mankind been duped into believing He can attain a higher state of being without Christ as His redeemer?

Why? Why? Why?

I think the first thing that needs addressing after this statement is this : Less than 50% of "Mankind" actually believe in Christ! So putting religion aside, i would accept that yes mankind is striving for some enlightenment, but not in any way as is written in the bible. Enlightenment would IMO mean knowledge of our reason for being here, and love for each and every other human and living creature on this planet. Until we reach this state of mind, God (if one exists, and how ever you want to portray God) will only then start to make some kind of contact with us.

Your concept and question i understand but i am not sure that portraying it as some kind of intervention as written in the bible is a good idea. Many people do NOT believe in Christ, Mohamed etc, but are still good people who believe in Love for each other. And IMO that is all we need, because religion in this world has brought only fear, suffering and death and not forgettnig division between humans who are all the same regardless.

In my life i do not label people as Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc etc, i label them as Humans from Earth. We are all one and the same.

Anyway, thanks for the post, starred n flagged for promoting a good discussion.

Peace and Love.

Originally posted by spellbound

Every time I try and intoduce people to the Lord and Jesus...I just get crap.

Perhaps they don't wish to be brainwashed or indoctrinated? It's a matter of perspective. What helps you get through your life is only necessary for you. What you see as "spreading the good word" others may see as spreading a cancer. Religion is highly subjective depending on who you talk to. That's the reality of the situation.

What does that tell you - that people need to be saved but they don't want to be.

That sounds like "she said no officer, but I know she really meant yes". You just need to accept that 'no' means 'no' and leave it like that. If people want religion in their lives, they will seek it out themselves. It's not for you to decide what other people 'need'. Perhaps they're happy as they are!

IRM

[edit on 20/1/09 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by John Matrix


The cure to fallen nature...It seems to repair itself. The individual needs to stop interfering with the healing process.

Faith...enough to prevent the individual from thinking that there is something specific they need to do to get well.

If you are trying to achieve immortality and eternal youth waiting for things to change for the better shouldn't be a major issue.