Originally posted by John Matrix
What I mean is that animals do what they seem to be programmed to do and never anything more. I've played some computer games and I started to see that, if you take any animal, they always act the same way, a lot like the Artificial Intelligence programing in some computer games.

Well actually everything is programmed. The program is called cause and effect. For every cause there is an effect. That's all life is anyways, cause and effect, and human life is no different.

Originally posted by huckfinn
I do agree with your above characterization that we are in the midst of two eternities. It was called in David's Psalm, the valley of the Shadow of Death. Some go to the Pit. I'll go to the mountain...actually I am already on the Mountain waiting for the rest of the darkness to be swept into the Pit.

I love that sense of humor.
What do you think the cure for the fallen nature is?
Is it simply and act of will?
Does it involve faith?

Originally posted by Maxmars
The flaws in the messengers are self-evident.

The major proselytizers of religion, Christian or otherwise, are all compromised to interface with the people they call their flock. Politics in religion, perhaps, is the best simplistic answer.

The simple truths are all easily ascertained by the spiritually-minded, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu; it matters not a stitch what they think they know about the other. Each has the same humanistic mandate which promotes a harmonious existence with the world in which we live.

The messengers 'promoting' their religion, or doctrine, as superior, or having supremacy over others is the problem.

Is the way of Christ a religion? Or has man made Him a religion?

Originally posted by John Matrix
Is the way of Christ a religion? Or has man made Him a religion?

Now we're getting somewhere.

I am no theologian. Nor do I purport to count myself among the great thinkers of our collective existence. But I humbly submit that the problem has always manifested itself as a social one.

I believe it is safe to say that the message of the Christ was at best poorly kept, and at worst basely abused to serve those who seem prone to desire power over people.

The path is contradictory to the execution of the religion. Christ, if I may be so bold, lives in one's heart; perhaps translating that to the minds and mouths of those intent on playing the role of leader was more than a simple matter of 'consecration' by other men.

I think it is safe to say that those who most would consider holy, saintly, moral people have become prominent despite the religion, not because of it.

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by John Matrix
What I mean is that animals do what they seem to be programmed to do and never anything more. I've played some computer games and I started to see that, if you take any animal, they always act the same way, a lot like the Artificial Intelligence programing in some computer games.

Well actually everything is programmed. The program is called cause and effect. For every cause there is an effect. That's all life is anyways, cause and effect, and human life is no different.

Could the cause be rebellion and the effect be the Fall of mankind from an original Divine state that was pleasing to God?

My personal opinion

Cows and animals do what we've always seen them do becuase that the way we human made them when we domesticated their anceestors.

Wild animals change and act differently when times of change in weather and climate and learn to eat new and different foods as with the fish in the great lakes now eating zebra mussels.

Not everbodies seeking out answers to profound questions either some people are just enjoying life.


Things change all the time without the need of a higer power, it's pretty arrogant to think the ways things are now is the ways things always should be.

No it's not possible that people are bound by some unseen force so people are as free as their government allows.

I don't beleive we have an eternal life at all just the one we live right now.
Anyway the choice between not beleiving and beleiving can be changed to what happens if the world was created by Zeus? then you beleiving in god would be wrong and condemn you to hades.

thats my opinion don't wear it out

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by John Matrix
Is the way of Christ a religion? Or has man made Him a religion?

Now we're getting somewhere.

I am no theologian. Nor do I purport to count myself among the great thinkers of our collective existence. But I humbly submit that the problem has always manifested itself as a social one.

I believe it is safe to say that the message of the Christ was at best poorly kept, and at worst basely abused to serve those who seem prone to desire power over people.

The path is contradictory to the execution of the religion. Christ, if I may be so bold, lives in one's heart; perhaps translating that to the minds and mouths of those intent on playing the role of leader was more than a simple matter of 'consecration' by other men.

I think it is safe to say that those who most would consider holy, saintly, moral people have become prominent despite the religion, not because of it.

I have contemplated for many years why the religious are often the most cruel. I think it's because they treat Christ as their posession, rather than see themselves as His.

Do I make sense?

Originally posted by Miishgoos
Not everbodies seeking out answers to profound questions either some people are just enjoying life.

Could it be that these are the one's that are in the deepest state of sleep? What becomes of them when their world crashes around them?
Are they not the ones most devastated when disasters strike?

Originally posted by John Matrix
Could the cause be rebellion and the effect be the Fall of mankind from an original Divine state that was pleasing to God?

Anything is possible.

My personal opinion

Well some will pick up the peices and start all over again.

No why would they be the most devestated?

have any evidence to support these claims?

my opinion again

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by John Matrix
Could the cause be rebellion and the effect be the Fall of mankind from an original Divine state that was pleasing to God?

Anything is possible.

So, a Way for redemption is possible too?

Some people are sheep (not sheeple) and they recognize their shepards voice, others are goats. If I live my life according to the gosple of Jesus and try to keep his teachings all the while knowing that I will fail and rely on his atonement through faith I believe I will live again. Now if there's no God then what have I lost? The sins of the flesh lead to destruction even here on earth and it makes good sense to avoid what God tells you to. Some play with fire and don't get burned but some or most do. I see nothing in God's law or Jesus's teachings that people should abhor unless they openly are self-destructive.

Originally posted by racegunz
Some people are sheep (not sheeple) and they recognize their shepards voice, others are goats. If I live my life according to the gosple of Jesus and try to keep his teachings all the while knowing that I will fail and rely on his atonement through faith I believe I will live again. Now if there's no God then what have I lost? The sins of the flesh lead to destruction even here on earth and it makes good sense to avoid what God tells you to. Some play with fire and don't get burned but some or most do. I see nothing in God's law or Jesus's teachings that people should abhor unless they openly are self-destructive.

Indeed, living the natural life may have it's occasional highs, but it seems to me that everything the natural man does(man without a birth of the supernatural in him) is from a desire that continually wants, and a want that continually desires. It's like a closed loop that he can't break away from unless he has a birth of the supernatural in him to free him from this wheel of a selfish desire.

Would you agree?

[edit on 19-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by John Matrix
If we are Fallen, and we have lost something of our First created state, and if that state was Divine and pleasing to God, then it must make sense that the Soul is in need of a birth of the divine in it.

Can you explain to me how we could have been more divine. It doesn't make much sense to me, did God love us more when we didn't have knowledge of good and evil assuming that is the case? Why?

I see two possible states for each person. One is the natural state which we are in from the Great Fall of Adam, and the other is God manifested in our Souls.

Can you explain the difference?

If all self effort fails to redeem for us that first created divine state, then would it not make sense that we require a supernatural divine redeemer?

Assuming we were once more "divine" and we were trying to go back to being that way, yet could not by all natural means, then I guess something supernatural would have to happen.