Blah blah blah. This planet should be free to travel as the individual sees fit. We all have a right to be here, and there. # your borders!

Originally posted by riddle6
As of right now, the law, or one like it, has yet to be approved. The problem for me, and I think many others in this thread, is that the same law keeps coming up again and again, even though many do not want it.

And that is serious problem of your politicians. They have no long term visions what to do with that. They don’t try to solve the problem of immigrants and the problem is not how tall should be the wall or how many immigrant should US government let in. The real goal is to deal with question how to assimilate that immigrants and not change your bellowed style of life. or what should America do in their external efforts to keep that immigrant in their own countries. If there is fire in first room this people no matter what law you invent to protect your room want to get out of that room. Maybe US should put more efforts to build prosperity and order in regions from which the main stream of immigrants come? Not only talk about NAFT and cooperation blabla because it is inconclusive.

Originally posted by riddle6
Yes, the US was founded by immigrants, but that doesn't mean that immigrants can now have free reign and do what they want to. Things, and countries, change over time.

And before that immigrants America was ruled by Indians but as you are saying the time was changed. But it is not the end. I could add some more to this. The time was changed and it wasn’t the first nor the last time it was changed so I wouldn’t be so accustoming to present reality. The statuesque never last for long.

Originally posted by riddle6
Again, it's the same thing as with number one. Everyone wants a better life, but that doensn't mean that you can do whatever you like. Each country has rules in place that everyone is supposed to follow.

Rules, rules. Do you think immigrants before they leave own country spends time in library learning your low codex? If you have already millions of illegal immigrants in your country and another that number of waiting behind Mexican border to their occasion that words that you have rules doesn’t solve that problem. I’m completely outside of your problem so I have no intention to quarrel with you about this. I only point that spending more money to build walls in the borders, employ more people in different agendas to chase that immigrants, and equip LAPD with tanks and heavy weapon that they could deal with gangs of illegal immigrants is not a solution.

Originally posted by riddle6
The slavery of the Africans, Irish, and other European countries does not fall into the same line as a humanitarian aspect. The slaves were unwillingly taken from their country and brought to another.

You take my words too literal. Saying that illegal immigrants are similar to slaves it wasn’t about definition of word “slave” in Wikipedia but about aspect of slaves life. Slaves are chased, slaves have no citizen rights, have no free will to chose their future, they are chip labor force, they are treated like people of second category, they can’t escape from that situation they are placed. Illegal immigrants are treated like slaves with that difference that slaves are taken by force and illegal immigrants are forced by their situation to become slaves.





[edit on 20-1-2009 by odyseusz]

Originally posted by riddle6
Actually, I think that on a local leval, it actually hurts the economy. As of right now, I don't have anything to back this up, so please don't flame me if I am wrong.

In short term you have right. You have spend some funds to help them accommodate but in long term you would convince yourself it was great investment. For example. Great Britain open their labor market to east European members of EU. In one year a million of people come to GB. Would they be a terrified. No, their GDP grown rapidly, their economy would become more competitive and what would probably surprise you unemployment doesn’t grow. But they could afford for such move because they know many of that people after they do a work would go back to own country. It’s because of EU politic. They tray to develop and they succeed that countries which are poorer and unstable. EU trays to made a well developed surrounding of member and other non member countries to prevent permanent immigration and it is economically profitable.

Originally posted by riddle6
I don't think that anyone is doing that to make people mad on purpose. I think that most Illegla immigrants are leaving their country for a good reason, but I think that no matter who you are and what country you are immigrating to, you have to follow the rules.

Yes rules, I already achieved to that matter.


[edit on 20-1-2009 by odyseusz]

I'm posting this strictly as INFORMATION. It is not an indication of what I believe or not believe so don't attack me. This is just for the people on ATS to have more knowledge.

This is an email I received several days ago ...
Just One State

. . . And why it is soooo terribly expensive to live here. . .If this doesn't open all our eyes, nothing will. . .please forward to other Californians.


Just One State
This is only one State...............If this doesn't open your eyes nothing will !

From the L. A. Times

1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County )

(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue

And you wonder why Nancy Pelosi wants them to become voters!

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Muundoggie]

[edit on 20-1-2009 by Muundoggie]

Originally posted by odyseusz
And that is serious problem of your politicians. They have no long term visions what to do with that. They don’t try to solve the problem of immigrants and the problem is not how tall should be the wall or how many immigrant should US government let in. The real goal is to deal with question how to assimilate that immigrants and not change your bellowed style of life. or what should America do in their external efforts to keep that immigrant in their own countries. If there is fire in first room this people no matter what law you invent to protect your room want to get out of that room. Maybe US should put more efforts to build prosperity and order in regions from which the main stream of immigrants come? Not only talk about NAFT and cooperation blabla because it is inconclusive.

I agree with the room and the fire example, I can for sure tell you that I would be one that would try to get into the other room, no matter what the rules where. That’s the problem with the rules argument (which I know I am guilty of using multiple times), it just doesn’t hold ground in many situations. I’m not against people trying to escape a terrible life or persecution; I am just against how some of the people that are Illegal immigrants act. Personally, the rules could use a bit of a redesign so as to help those that are really trying to make a better life for themselves and that actually act like they care about the country they are escaping to (as in not flying their native country’s flag above the US flag).

Originally posted by odyseuszAnd before that immigrants America was ruled by Indians but as you are saying the time was changed. But it is not the end. I could add some more to this. The time was changed and it wasn’t the first nor the last time it was changed so I wouldn’t be so accustoming to present reality. The statuesque never last for long.

And before the Native Americans, was it the Dinosaurs? Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.

I do realize that times will continue to change, but for me it goes back to the attitude of the immigrant and how they treat the new country they are in.

Originally posted by odyseuszYou take my words too literal. Saying that illegal immigrants are similar to slaves it wasn’t about definition of word “slave” in Wikipedia but about aspect of slaves life. Slaves are chased, slaves have no citizen rights, have no free will to chose their future, they are chip labor force, they are treated like people of second category, they can’t escape from that situation they are placed. Illegal immigrants are treated like slaves with that difference that slaves are taken by force and illegal immigrants are forced by their situation to become slaves.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to interpret your words wrong. I understand what you were trying to say know.

Originally posted by odyseusz
The real goal is to deal with question how to assimilate that immigrants and not change your bellowed style of life. or what should America do in their external efforts to keep that immigrant in their own countries. If there is fire in first room this people no matter what law you invent to protect your room want to get out of that room. Maybe US should put more efforts to build prosperity and order in regions from which the main stream of immigrants come?

I disagree that it is America's responsibility to put out fires in other people rooms. Or build prosperity in other regions. Isnt that what 99% of all America bashing threads criticize us for? Thinking it is our responsibility to butt in and impose ourselves on others? Make up your minds, will you? It either is or is not our place to rule the world. No, I will make it up for you. It isnt our place. I dont want to pay for it.

One of my arguments against letting illegal immigrants have amnesty is that they are by definition people who do not think laws should apply to them. One of the things that has made our country great is that we have worked cooperatively with one another. Despite the fact that we have been and continue to be a nation of immigrants from very diverse backgrounds.

One of the ways this was accomplished was by laying down rules and laws that were followed despite the cultural differences. Allowing people citizenship who are NOT cooperative, and do NOT feel the need to follow the law, is a mistake.

If their "room" is on fire, could it be that that is because rather than cooperate in their own room to put out the fire they instead acted purely on self interest and fled? Could it be that this disregard for law and cooperation is precisely the reason their room caught fire in the first place? And if they cared so little for their own room, what makes it likely that they are going to care any more for a room they did not build cooperatively? Particularly since their first act in entering this room is to crap on the "house rules?"

There are law abiding citizens in every country. And, there are law abiding citizens who want to immigrate. I say let them in, legally, via due process. Those who not only could not take care of their own "room" and who demonstrate no respect for ours, should be returned to their room. American is not responsible for the whole rest of the world. Other people, in other countries have the right to do the same thing the founders of this one did. Pick up your arms and oust the oppressors if you dont like the way your country is run. Freedom is not free. Ireland did it. France did it. America did it. Instead of fighting their own governments they come here and fight ours for not letting them violate our laws with impunity? It just shows bad character in my opinion. We have enough homegrown bad characters without deliberately importing the rest of the worlds.


[edit on 20-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

Ok I read ALL of this thread, I just hate to point out something that keeps being repeated

"they do Jobs that we (citizens) don't want to do"

Not true, because if it was, these "Muay Macho Hombre's" that are "Sooo proud to be Mexicans" (waving flags and Marching)

Would CLEAN up Mexico and make it a place worth staying in.....

Of course that is ridiculous, Mexico doesn't have the Lawyers like the US has..........

Amnesty for illegals and cannabis possession should be intertwined

Originally posted by riddle6

Originally posted by tinfoilman
To everyone that says anti-illegal = anti-Mexican. Look, if I had a heard of cows running through my living room tearing everything up I'd probably be anti-cow. If they were horses I'd be anti-horse. If it was a whole bunch of cows and just one horse I'd probably be mostly anti-cow now wouldn't I?
[edit on 20-1-2009 by tinfoilman]

That's exactly how I feel. Living in Texas, there are so many "cows" that I don't even notice the "horses."....

Originally posted by riddle6
Again, I am not anti-immigrant. Some of the nicest people that I have ever known have been immigrants. My problam is when hard working, law-abiding, LEGAL immigrants/citizens are turned away, while ILLEGAL people have things like costly medical bills payed for them by the county.

Yeah well, maybe I shouldn't have compared Mexicans to animals lol. The only time they seem like animals is when I'm partying with my Mexican neighbors, but I really meant that people like to group things. It's just human nature and sometimes we all get mentally put in the wrong group.

Medical care is truly screwed in this country. Both my parents have cancer so I know. One smaller example is me and my wife pay $50 a week for insurance so I can see the doctor once a year. He only charges $50 a visit. Then the one time my wife did need to go to the emergency room they denied the claim! What are we paying for? Insurance companies are the biggest frauds.

I don't believe in national health care either. It won't be long the government will be selecting your diet and exercise plan for you because since they're paying for it you know? I think that's already started in other countries.

I would like to see companies forced to pay for insurance. Sort of like a health care minimum wage. At least part of it. After all the tax payers shouldn't be paying for my health care. The guy I work overtime for every week should be paying the health care. However, we're going to have to fix that system before businesses can afford to do that. Even if we do how would we then compete with foreign cheap workers?

Anyway it is entirely unfair that the illegals get free medical care. It hurts everyone here legally. However, my beliefs are that these things you should provide someone if they truly need them if they ask, even if they're your worst enemy on the earth. That is food/clothing/shelter, medical care, and education. Even if it puts you at a disadvantage if you can provide these things for someone that really needs them you should do so. That's how I believe anyway. The question is how long can we continue to do so?

Originally posted by tinfoilmanYeah well, maybe I shouldn't have compared Mexicans to animals lol. The only time they seem like animals is when I'm partying with my Mexican neighbors, but I really meant that people like to group things. It's just human nature and sometimes we all get mentally put in the wrong group.

I understood what you ment, and I only used the comparison that you did because it was a good comparison (that is if you don't think it's say that one particular group is like a bunch of animals). I don't think that any group is like a bunch of animals by the way.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
Medical care is truly screwed in this country. Both my parents have cancer so I know. One smaller example is me and my wife pay $50 a week for insurance so I can see the doctor once a year. He only charges $50 a visit. Then the one time my wife did need to go to the emergency room they denied the claim! What are we paying for? Insurance companies are the biggest frauds.

I know what you mean. I actually had cancer a few years ago, so the nightmare of the insurance companies isn't something new to my family. It's even crazier now, because since I've turned 18, they refuse to talk to either of my parents unless I give them permisson (which I think is crazy, what 18 year old knows anything about insurance?). What's really messed up is when you get into situations like with you and your wife, or even dental and vision. It's like they want you to stay healthy, but the second you are sick, or need to fix somthing (like you glasses or teeth), they don't want to have anything to do with you.

Originally posted by tinfoilmanAnyway it is entirely unfair that the illegals get free medical care. It hurts everyone here legally. However, my beliefs are that these things you should provide someone if they truly need them if they ask, even if they're your worst enemy on the earth. That is food/clothing/shelter, medical care, and education. Even if it puts you at a disadvantage if you can provide these things for someone that really needs them you should do so. That's how I believe anyway. The question is how long can we continue to do so?

I agree that it is a good thing to help people, even "your worst enemy on earth." My problem comes with the situation of Legal vs. Illegal. I don't mind helping people, or even the government helping people (lord knows I don't know how my family would have done if it wasn't for things like food stamps there for a year or two). Sometimes people just need a little help for a couple of months so they can get back up on their feet. But again, you come back to the Legal vs. Illegal situation and how fair it really is to the people that are not only here legally, but are citizens.

When is this bill supposed to be passed or go through the senate anyhoo?
IM agaisnt it. However, since this si suposed to be a global world, which i dont suport either, thiers a reason for borders...so the countrys people arnt attacked! When Europe simply lets americans come in and out at will, china lets europe come in/out at will, middle east, , ect yuo get teh idea, then fine,...cause then the rest fo the world too, will pick up the taxes on htis pathetic mindless briandead bill