Greys and the Opposable Thumb

reply to post by Seruak

I don't want to get too deep into this and ruin the thread with my opinions…

It’s your, and everyone else’s opinions, that I want! Please do not feel guilty for offering a plausible viewpoint.

…perhaps on some off chance, the greys have other forms of manipulating instruments? The need for opposable thumbs would vanish if they had somehow learned to control electronics with their minds, or made the machines simplistic enough so as to allow manipulation of the machine without the need for a thumb.

That is a reasonable idea. But if they can manipulate their tech with their minds, why stop at removing the thumb? Why not the whole hand? Or the legs, for that matter, so they can float around Mekon style? The lack of this opposable digit seems deliberate…but then again I could be wrong.

My point is the Greys appear to have undergone a similar form of evolution; where most scientists will say that any other sentient and advanced life-form that happens to have developed in the universe simply cannot have followed the same evolutionary paths as we have, here we have myriad reports of these thin, humanoid creatures. And the only distinct difference (apart from the eyes)? No thumbs, or rudimentary ones at best.

These are just my ideas. No proof, just conjecture.

And I thank you for them.

reply to post by mystiq


There are several other animals with opposable thumbs, many of which have already been pointed out by other posters. However, it seems our usage of them gave us the evolutionary advantage…that, and the intelligence we were endowed with.

With greys, the cloning seems the most likely because the do interface with their advanced psi abilities with their equipment…

This is an fascinating quote; do you have any links for further reading?

…and they're specialized, there are tasks that they alone do, compared to other species.

This specialism could also be compared to task-specific machinery. I fully imagine, if my hypothesis is correct, that the Greys are more than likely the foremost kidnappers in the universe! But seriously, if their programming is centered solely on abduction and extractions from hazardous environments, when we see images of them, are we looking at an elite species? An Intergalactic Special Forces?

reply to post by Martindoolittle


Thanks Martindoolittle. for your reply. And for the evocative imagery you supplied as well.

Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this little physical abberation.

reply to post by aleon1018


Thank you aleon1018 for your input.

I've recalled one of my bizarre accounts of an event and as-if waking in the middle of it and seeing regular people using fake alien props and pawing at me.

Isn’t it fair to accept that the human mind will, in the midst of a traumatic episode (and especially one that stretches the limits of reason and experience), that it will close in on itself and alter the reality of the event to something that it can relate to? Wouldn’t this simply be a self-defense mechanism; a way of not letting the mind be damaged by something so bizarre and (literally) otherworldly?

It could have also been done purposely to make me think that way to cover up something else.

This scenario makes a lot of sense if we are dealing with a species that operates and practices hostage-taking along the same lines as we do. The events you related could be the product of the Greys technology; you were seeing something that you accepted, albeit reluctantly, and were therefore a little calmer because of it.

I recall having once seen what was basically a box of alien looking hands or 'props' with tags and writings of the species it came from.

Ahh, but how many digits did they have?

My best guess is that this is someone's special effects/ illusions techniques.

I agree completely.

reply to post by Kandinsky



Kandinsky, thank you for such an erudite, gloriously speculative and balanced reply.

Your extrapolation does, in many ways, agree with my own theory as to Greys being a “designed” race. The concept of them being sent out into the universe on information gathering (reconnaissance?) missions is perfectly reasonable; why set foot on dangerous soil at the onset of a mission of contact/ analysis/zoological interest if you have hugely efficient machinery to reconnoiter the intended area of interest for you? And considering our propensity for violence, it seems infinitely wise to do such a thing.

An Advanced Race, curtailed by their own Einstein's Theory decide to send manned probes to explore the Cosmos. They know that Physics precludes any journey by themselves. Generations would live and die on any ships they sent etc. They design a creature that can take to the stars and be programmed to carry out exploration of any life-sustaining Planets they find.

Once again, if this model is in any way correct, it supports the concept of Greys being an enormously advanced version of our own UAVs. The Mars landers could be easily compared to them as an antiquated version of the same. However…

They would be given just enough intelligence to carry out the task.

What if Greys are capable of emotion, or at least a diluted form of empathy? They’ve been described as being militaristic in their behaviour, cold and detached, but can we simply dismiss the possibility that they are without emotion? There are some accounts of “leader” Greys being able to placate abductees with some form of telepathic assurances; does this simply indicate a reaction to a specific human trait, or a compassion reaction designed to facilitate the abductions speedy completion?

All is speculation, as you rightly said. But the possibility that there may be a spark of understanding between species is a fascinating concept.

Opposable thumbs could be unnecessary for such expeditions.

Quite, and especially if the equipment they have been issued with is designed especially with their impediment in mind. Why send out the most advanced technology when it may well be downed, accidentally or not?

I am not saying that it is impossible for a species to function without thumbs, but that it would make far more sense for any humanoid species to have them.

reply to post by easynow

Beamish, great thread and a Very interesting observation you have brought out that i was not aware of. so thank you and it is something to think about even if it's speculation because it could be of importance.

My pleasure, easynow. Speculation often straightens the path to enlightenment and expands our potential for accepting what we discover at the journey’s end.

i have always thought the Grey Aliens were creating Hybrids to become more like us…so my question is: do the reported Grey Hybrid children have a Thumb ?

The concept of an alien “plan” for these so-called hybrids is subject to the usual amount of individual interpretation. Certain themes persist, but the large amount of seemingly expert commentators deliver varying explanations.

Doing a brief online search, whilst not throwing up any definitive descriptions, indicates the general consensus is that these “hybrids” are just that; a mongrel species. Whether they take on the superior qualities of each donor genus is unclear. But if their intention is to integrate into human society, it would be logical to expect them to look as normal as possible.

Interestingly, it has been noted on frequent occasions that the Greys utilize technology in their “medical” procedures that closely mirror our own. More advanced this tech may be, but for a supposed intergalactic species, strangely comparable to our “primitive” equipment. Does this substantiate the theory of them using basic technology on Grey ships in case of capture? Why hand over the tools that could lead to an immense, and unfair, advancement in knowledge? Does this indicate that there are strict guidelines in place that decree any equipment and implements employed in the processes of abduction have to be of a basic standard, but sufficiently capable to aid the Greys to complete their task?

Hi Friends,

I have never seen Ufo's, but I want to see it once in my life. Heard a lot about the aliens and the UFO's from our Parents. This is really an interesting thing to know.

Snoreta


[advert link removed]


[edit on 20-1-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

reply to post by Beamish


The supposed large grey hand was large and it was like they just took it out of the microwave or a bucket of hot water. I guess it looked more human with the thumb, but just much bigger and gray. The others were small as if monkeys, reptiles and other animals. These may have all just been larger earth based creatures and when you seperate them and put tags on them with other names. The event was more like coming off some mind numbing drug. Whoever these people are, they have a way of making us feel drugged and dumbed down.

My opinion is it doesn't matter if it's actually staged.

Robotic hands may also be a clue as with their inability to untie ropes and strings. Abduction stories of peoples clothes barely on or even backwards? A recent commercial of people who quit smoking as if shows them in drug induced state or like a sleepwalker etc.

robot.gmc.ulaval.ca...

Maybe they evolved in water environment or they can now replicate stuff
and dont need to make them by hands. Or as some previous posters said
maybe they have more flexible fingers than we can imagine.

I like the idea from Colonel Philip J. Corso when he said that the aliens we see
are bred to fly saucers. To fly them they dont need a thumb.

[edit on 20-1-2009 by defiler]

Originally posted by Beamish
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

Kandinsky, thank you for such an erudite, gloriously speculative and balanced reply.

Kind words indeed, and prompted by your interesting thread. Good work

To continue speculating about the opposable thumbs...You've mentioned the lack of thumbs as a means of controlling the Greys and preventing them getting 'ideas above their station'. If we accept that they are designed to accomplish that which their creators cannot; travel vast distances and explore other worlds. There'd be a possibility that the Greys could discover knowledge and technologies that surpasses that of their designers. Any philosopher would entertain the idea of student surpassing teacher. In this light, your idea has a basis of logic.

If a civilization was advanced enough to design these explorers and send them out, they'd consider a safeguard. The journey could take millenia before they returned with all the data from new worlds. Steps would be taken to ensure that the doves they sent out didn't return as hawks...

As our technology stands, I can use a computer without using my thumbs (space-bar habit excluded!). I can hold an I-phone and use touch screens. I couldn't use a hammer and hold a nail, but if their hardware is much more advanced they'd never need to use the thumbs. If they are designed then possibly thumbs were considered unnecessary? Your Mars Lander analogy might apply here too. Not one gram of material was sent to Mars that wasn't necessary. All of our missions to Mars are pared down to the absolute minimum requirements. Why design a creature with tentacles and three eyes when two arms and two eyes are practical?

Regarding emotions, it's impossible to assess and quite hard to speculate. Our endeavors in AI all seem to be directed at creating an 'intelligence' that has aspects, or understanding of emotions. Phillip K Dick and Asimov were describing such things in the 1950s. Given the technology to design something like the Greys, it seems amiss to remove capabilities of emotion. Pure intellect or pure emotions could be self-limiting and diminish the results of the Greys' explorations. A combination of both, with intellect being the dominant factor, could provide a more colorful rendition of whatever they encountered.

Your broader idea of controlling the Greys has caught my imagination.

Imagine being so advanced and curious that you could send Grey-manned craft to likely sources of life, knowing it could be generations before they returned. The possibility of Doves returning as Hawks? There'd be no way of knowing what technology they could discover. What power or knowledge? They could lead the way back home to other curious intelligent races. In this light, how could the designers build in some protocol or safeguard that would protect them? Free will would be a good place to start

reply to post by Beamish


You made some very good points, and proposed quite an elaborate and carefully researched hypothesis.

But I personally am yet to be completely convinced of the greys. IMO, the only evidence to support the existence of these small grey beings; comes from the testimony dating to back to roswell by Jesse Marcel as well as more the recent Edgar Mitchell statements in which he said that the aliens can only be described as little people; as ridiculous as that sounds.

Mitchell said that the original story is quite accurate, but that there is more bogus stories and misinformation out there since the subject first arised.

reply to post by Kandinsky


The Greys’ lack of thumbs may well be, as I have surmised, a deliberately inflicted physical impediment. The other possibility is that is also a form of branding; a visible reminder to them that they owe allegiance to a race superior to them.

(An aside: Whilst there is speculation that the Greys are a separate and individual species in their own right, as in they have no connection to any other species, there have been reports of Greys seen in conjunction with Nordics during abduction events. Rather than getting mired down in the various Grey-Nordic alliance scenarios-or that the Nordics are products of Grey hybridization with humans- let us assume that these Aryan aliens are actually seen in conjunction with our little fellows because they own them. They Greys have done their job and retrieved a human safely, and now their creators can observe the poor captive wretch in the safety of their own craft.)

It is feasible that their creators cannot undergo the rigors of long distance travel. However, as there are reports of a dizzying amount of aliens visiting our planet, let us assume that they, the creators, can journey alongside their creations. Faster than light travel is already the stuff of theory here on earth; what if our visitors have managed to break that barrier? This brings me on to another subject: We presuppose that the technology these visitors have at their disposal is superior to ours because they have had the benefits of a serious head start in scientific study. But what if it were only advanced by a few hundred years? How would a citizen of the year 1809 react to the sight of a jet fighter? Or the sounds issuing from an i-pod? Or the wonders of a laptop connected to a world-wide information system? There would be nothing comparable in the witness’s world to relate them to. Wouldn’t the compulsion be, therefore, to assume the inventors of these marvels were thousands of years ahead in their tech? And what would a stone-age tribe make of a helicopter and its occupants? We’ve all heard of modern day cargo cults in the Pacific Ocean.

If we therefore take the premise that the Grey’s creators advances are not to be measured in millennia, but perhaps centuries only, wouldn’t it make sense that a upgraded form of what would be considered archaic tech be utilized for missions that are considered high risk? In their eyes it would be basic kit, cheap and replaceable, but to us a huge leap in expertise. And whilst simplifying this kit for four fingered hands would not preclude us from investigating and learning from any captured craft, we would have the added problem of adapting anything we managed to develop from it to our five digits. Of course all of this is conjecture based on an assumption that our visitors think along the same lines as us.

As to the Greys and their ability to learn; if they truly are the pinnacle of artificial intelligence, it would make perfect sense that they have the capability to understand the importance of new and unexpected discoveries. They would be, after all, a living re-working of an already successful creation, maybe not constructed of flesh and blood in the way we expect, but endowed with the same sentience and curiosity of their designers. This would not only seem sensible as a survival mechanism, but would have been put in place as an essential tool to aid in the completion of their mission. We can only postulate as to the creator’s moral standpoint with regard to how they limit or allow their invention’s capacity for self-awareness. Could a Grey even consider a rebellious thought as being its own? And if it did have that capacity, wouldn’t its creators have put in place a fail-safe system to negate any self-motivated thoughts? If disloyal considerations threatened the mission, how else to ensure it continues?

As to the Greys’ mission; what if it were target specific? No wandering from system to system, but remaining in a dedicated area until an agenda is completed? From initial reconnaissance, the Greys’ creators would know precisely what level of technology we have reached, and would consequently have no reason for concern if by some bizarre chance the Greys became completely self-aware and developed a desire for freedom. It does follow logically that the Greys could only be deployed to civilizations that were inferior to their creators; how long would we be able to observe a culture that had infinitely superior technology without being seen and forced away?

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Beamish]

reply to post by Majorion


Thank you for your kind comments, Majorion

Proving or disproving the existence of Greys isn’t really what I’m trying to achieve in this discussion. Indeed, that particular feat could well be beyond us if the more inexplicable and enigmatic aspects of the Greys visits are to be considered. My assumptions as to their provenance and level of technology could well be completely wrong; in fact their interaction with us, if it happens at all, could well be rooted in our psyche. What abductees witness could be the product of our own, internal survival mechanisms; we interpret the incredible and make it acceptable. Then again, our little friends could well be dosing their victims with goodness knows what to make them compliable.

At the end of the day, it’s all postulation. Oh, and a great intellectual exercise.

I've often wondered if perhaps what we percieve as their environment is skewed. It seems to me that whether they were biological machines or products of evolution in space, there would have to be a reason that they have appendages such as they are thought to have.

If they are products of evolution, then perhaps the environment they adapted to was one of lower gravity, where the ability to move things with tigt grips and moderate strength were unneccesary? Look at how things function on our space shuttles, where things are in fact weightless. I know that people that have recounted experiences af abductions as there being a percieved gravity on the ship they were in, but that doesn't really lend itself to a constant, or credibility, for that matter.

And the same goes for if they are manufactured biological entities. they were manufactured for some specific reason, and as such, their makers gave them the appendages they have for a reason, which i can't even begin to fathom.

just a thought

reply to post by sandman692


Thanks for the input, sandman692.

If they are manufactured to a specific design criteria i.e. close interaction with humans in often confined and unfamiliar environments, would it not seem sensible to emulate an already hugely successful model? Two arms, two legs, bipedal etc.? The fact that they are, in general, described as being small also fits in with this premise. Large crew on a small ship means less space for equipment. Their needs would be minimal in comparison to the missions.

Consider Honda’s Asimo robots:

world.honda.com...

This cute little fellow is small and compact, and as far as advances in robotics goes, hugely innovative. There may well be much larger models constructed for particular tasks, but for now we have a working, [i[bipedal, anthropomorphic, self-propelling approximation of a human being. He is programmed by Honda technicians, therefore is completely reliable and controllable. Note he has four fingers and an opposable thumb. Other robots and androids are being constructed with the same configuration.

We have yet to experience a world that has completely autonomous androids as an everyday feature of our societies. When it happens, all of a sudden, we cannot do without them. But what would happen if there was a back-lash against their inclusion into our every day life on cultural or religious or moral grounds? What would placate objections to their superior abilities, or the possibility of them achieving a desire for freedom? If they are able to interrelate with humans on an almost equal basis, and exhibit their intelligence openly, just what would be a suitable hindrance for our new, artificial cousins? Reprogramming?; that can be hacked and altered. Limited battery life?; batteries can be changed easily. Reduce their intelligence?; they have to be easily adaptable to any owner, that and being capable of instantaneous decision making, so that consideration would hinder their usefulness.

So we remove their thumbs.

Not only does it render them less dexterous than us, it is also a visible solution to societies worries. It might not be the ideal solution, but it works well.

Of course, the solution could present another problem; what if the androids asked why they were disfigured?

reply to post by Beamish


To say that they could ask why they were disfigured would assume that they were programmed to see the lack of opposable thumbs as a disfigurement. If they can perform all the tasks they are programmed to perform without problems, is it not logical to conclude that they aren't disfigured? Just a thought.

reply to post by sandman692


Maybe I was running away with myself there. I think what I was trying to allude to was how intelligent are the Greys? If we are going with the premise they’re manufactured yet alive in the closest sense that word can be applied to artificial life-forms, how far does their cognizance reach? Would it be to the extent of them understanding precisely what they are and their position in relation to their creators, maybe even to such a degree that they can, in basic terms, voice their own opinions and reservations? Be able to philosophize on their lot. In that case they would be aware of their servitude, as manifested by the hazardous nature of their duties, the lower quality of their equipment, and the distinct physical differences between them and their architects.

Accounts report that they are largely cold and impassive; perfect operatives for performing unpleasant and frightening procedures on unwilling victims. But what if this detached attitude to human reaction is intentionally enforced so as not to alarm their quarry any more than necessary? If their creators have a culture that is founded on even a modicum of recognizable morality, who is to say that a little of this morality has not been incorporated into the Greys’ psychological make-up? The only way they display any form of compassion is to be as quick and efficient as possible. No conversation, no reassurances, just impassive effectiveness.

Or is there a possibility that we are watching a totally captive species going about its job, knowing it is subdued and without chance of redemption, in what can only be described as a “getting the job done” manner?