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In Philadelphia This Morning, Obama to Call for "A New Declaration of Independence"

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posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
Okay, you guys just want to live with these really strange beliefs that bring you misery. Of course there are bigots on both sides. Both sides are made up of humans and have the same human flaws. Both sides see themselves as justified. Are they? No, they are just ignorant and scared and wanting to blame the world for the fear they feel about their lives and their dissappointments. This is human. Hopefully, we will all grow away from it. How is Obama feeding into bigotry by acknowledging that it existed during the time of slavery and still exists? You just admitted it exists, although you wrote about it coming from Blacks. Were you trying to feed into bigotry with what you wrote? It exists. It is a fact. Saying it does does not feed it, it merely states a fact. Once again, think of the context of his statements.


I was the first (in this thread) to acknowledge that the bigoted thinking is something we need time to grow from. Now you are agreeing with me.

How is Obama feeding it? well let's go back to one of your posts



He said that the flaw was in the "thinking" of the times. The thinking he was referring to was that which allowed slavery to continue.

Then, he says that the same type of flawed THINKING continues to this day. Which is referring to the bigotry that is still in existence in this country.


If you have a role model specifically telling you that the "flawed thinking" of 150 (or 233) yrs ago is still a problem, then those who look up to you are going to believe what you say.

We do NOT need more of the African American community thinking "The white man is keeping me down." I PROMISE you, there are more BAD black role models keeping our youth down than white people.

From the non-existent fathers to the dope dealers to the gangsters, we have plenty of people bringing the community down. Rather than feed into the racial divide by IMPLYING that "slavery days bigoted thinking" is in still full effect, we need to foster the belief that everyone has the same opportunities, it's what you DO with those opportunities that matters.


Wanting to raise taxes on the rich is not socialism nor is it Marxism. It is common sense. It is taxation, not a social ideology. So, you like the fact that you pay a larger percentage of your income in taxes than a person making over $250k currently does? This doesn't bother you?


Well let's see, my uncle has a restaurant - he's a small business owner. His annual receipts are just a little more than that threshold of $250K. He already pays taxes to the Federal gov, the state gov, plus permits, plus taxes on the utilities, plus social security for his employees, plus insurance on his business, plus and plus and plus.

He lives very modestly and still has his home mortgaged to the hilt (he used that money to start his business). His Waitresses clear more in tips in a week than he does!!

If he gets taxed even more, he will have to chose between firing someone or losing his home. This doesn't bother you?


You like that your tax dollars pay for schools that are inferior while their savings on taxes allows them to afford elite schools for their children? This is justice to you? This is the pursuit of happiness in your book?


I've worked hard, very hard to put my children into the best schools I can afford. They do NOT go to public schools. I've even homeschooled them when I couldn't afford the private school.

I work for what I have and what I provide to my children - that is fair. Nothing has been given to me ever. I have served in the military, I serve my community and I take care of my own.

Last time I check, I thought those were examples of real American Values. I am not jealous of what others are able to do that is above my means. I live within MY MEANS and I am happy with what I have. I've earned it, I own it, it's mine and I'M PROUD OF THAT.


You don't like him throwing around the words from the DOI, yet you throw them around in terms of what you want for yourself and feel you should be able to achieve. Yet, you put him down when he points out that the current system impedes your ability to do so and call him a Marxist when you clearly don't even understand what a Marxist is.


I am so SICK of that argument. The system impedes NO ONE. We can only impede ourselves. I have a college education, my children will have a college education, I have a home, a good job and a good life.

Where has the system impeded me? If ANYTHING the system, through affirmative action, has HELPED me to achieve my goals and dreams. But it was up to me to strive for those goals and do the WORK required to achieve them.

That SHOULD be how it works no matter what race you are, and from what I see, that IS how it works.


But, then if you don't understand the purpose of the Declaration of Independence, there is little chance that you will understand that concept. I am not saying anyone here is dumb, just not well informed about history. You skipped that day at school perhaps or perhaps you didn't pay attention, or maybe your teachers didn't understand it themselves.


The Declaration of Independence was an ACT OF WAR. That was the purpose of it, to declare WAR against the British Crown. Guess I was there that day, my teachers understood and so did I. Did you?




posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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First of all, you are the one that said that he was feeding bigotry by acknowleding it, then you go on and acknowledge it albiet from blacks. Secondly, the family life of a black that you describe is not the family life experienced by all or most black families, maybe just those that you are in contact with. It is also one shared by many, many white families. He said nothing about a view of the "white man keeping me down" although I have read lots of posts by your buddies on this site that say that the elite are keeping them down. So, what is the difference? Whites can complain but Blacks cannot? By the way "the man" refers to the system, not some hypothetical white man. Okay, you have a good life. I was addressing others on here that have posted complaint after complaint regarding how corrupt the system is, how the elite are running them in the ground. If this does not apply to your activity on this site, you should not take it personally.

"If you have a role model specifically telling you that the "flawed thinking" of 150 (or 233) yrs ago is still a problem, then those who look up to you are going to believe what you say.

We do NOT need more of the African American community thinking "The white man is keeping me down." I PROMISE you, there are more BAD black role models keeping our youth down than white people." There are many bad role models in all communities keeping our youth down--black and white. Why do you chose to isolate this to the black community?

Lesson on taxes, no one is taxed on their annual receipts. They are taxed on their profits. This the amount AFTER all costs related to running the business are paid. So, unless he clears over $250 after all bills are paid, which you said he does not, his taxes would not go up, they would go down.

I have clearly said the purpose of the DOI on here. It is others that made statements which made it clear that they did not. You make observations regarding bigotry after complaining that Obama is feeding into it when what he said was that bigotry is still alive and well in the US. He said nothing even close to what you posted regarding complaints about the system keeping people down. He was talking about the ideology of the time that viewed blacks as inferior.



[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
First of all, you are the one that said that he was feeding bigotry by acknowleding it, then you go on and acknowledge it albiet from blacks. Secondly, the family life of a black that you describe is not the family life experienced by all or most black families, maybe just those that you are in contact with. It is also one shared by many, many white families.



And you would know how the black community lives... how? Or are YOU the one stuck with a stereotypical picture of slums and poverty and a lack of family cohesions and values?

And I do believe that Obama is feeding the bigotry. For the most part, the white and black communities live together well, there are more "mixed" neighborhoods than racially isolated neighborhoods - at least where people WORK, rather than try to become a baby factory dealing with multiple "baby daddies"

If the black community - even those who have something to show for their efforts - start believing that "whitey is keeping us down" - then their attitudes will display that. If the blacks become hostile, or start up with an attitude of entitlement, then the white community is going to also react to the stimulus and this is EXACTLY how the bigotry is fed.

ANY family regardless of race can have the same family life I experience, all they have to do is WORK for it.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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"And you would know how the black community lives... how? Or are YOU the one stuck with a stereotypical picture of slums and poverty and a lack of family cohesions and values?"

Yes, I am aware of how the black community live. It is a rather large community that not only lives in the slums but also in some pretty big mansions as well. I have a diverse group of acquaintances. You are the one that made the observations of the black community that matches stereotypes. I am the one that called YOU on it. Read your own posts.

"And I do believe that Obama is feeding the bigotry. For the most part, the white and black communities live together well, there are more "mixed" neighborhoods than racially isolated neighborhoods - at least where people WORK, rather than try to become a baby factory dealing with multiple "baby daddies"

If the black community - even those who have something to show for their efforts - start believing that "whitey is keeping us down" - then their attitudes will display that. If the blacks become hostile, or start up with an attitude of entitlement, then the white community is going to also react to the stimulus and this is EXACTLY how the bigotry is fed."

Who said that Whitey is keeping anyone down? This something you brought up, not me, nor was it stated or even implied in Obama's speech or interview comments. You brought this into the discussion. He was talking about bigotry. You said that by acknowledging bigotry, he was saying Whitey was keeping blacks down. You read this into his statement and then went on to complain about black bigotry. So, when blacks state that there are bigots, they are complaining about whitey. When whites complain about bigotry, they are making a statement regarding the conditions within the black community? This appears to be what you are saying even if you don't admit it. If not, why all the talk about how blacks hate whites and the poor conditions within the black community as you see it?

"ANY family regardless of race can have the same family life I experience, all they have to do is WORK for it."

It is very nice of you to acknowledge this.


[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
Lesson on taxes, no one is taxed on their annual receipts. They are taxed on their profits. This the amount AFTER all costs related to running the business are paid. So, unless he clears over $250 after all bills are paid, which you said he does not, his taxes would not go up, they would go down.


You OBVIOUSLY do not understand Obama's tax plan.

Believe me, My Community has gone over it with a fine tooth comb and it is one of the primary reasons he did not receive some of the votes he potentially could have.

And then we also have the ever reducing number of exactly where the cut off is. Is it $250K or $200K or $125K. See that magical $250K number is for a WORKING COUPLE. Not a single person.

So my uncle (a single person) with 2 mortgages and a business cannot make a penny over $125K without a tax increase. You wanna be the one to tell him that his business SHOULDN'T do good?

And let's not forget that he plans on allowing Bush tax cuts to expire, thereby raising taxes on 100% of the working class. This post explains it quite clearly

Hundreds of economists, including Nobel Prize winners oppose his plan

Remember that pesky piece of paper that this thread was discussing? That Declaration of Independence - it spoke of taxation without representation, and unfair taxes and explained exactly why those things as well as others were enough of a reason to declare WAR against the crown.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:29 PM
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Your words
"I don't know where you live, I live in New Orleans. I can tell you, my black population is much more bigoted than the white population. Granted there are a few openly bigoted white people here, but there are WAY more of us here in the black population that will openly and subtlety display the bigotry they harbor."

We do NOT need more of the African American community thinking "The white man is keeping me down." I PROMISE you, there are more BAD black role models keeping our youth down than white people.

From the non-existent fathers to the dope dealers to the gangsters, we have plenty of people bringing the community down. Rather than feed into the racial divide by IMPLYING that "slavery days bigoted thinking" is in still full effect, we need to foster the belief that everyone has the same opportunities, it's what you DO with those opportunities that matters."

This is how you described the black community. I will even let you get away with the statement regarding gang members and drug pushers. Also, a startling discovery and revelation, you are a member of the black race. You did say "there are more BAD black role models keeping our youth down than white people. " Imagine that, I'll say. A bit paranoid about the whole race issue aren't you? Well, it has been my experience that many southern blacks still maintain a slave mentality regarding race issues. Don't know what I mean by that? Research it for yourself. I am tired of trying to educate you. Life should have done more of that than what your posts have displayed.

As far as the tax issue, well, he was elected President now, we will see how it plays out.

I know this is going to bother you, but I will say it anyway. Taxation without representation referred to the fact that the colonist had no say so in how they were taxed or governed. On the other hand, we have the members of Congress to which represent our interests. When they don't, we have the choice of not re-electing them. So, the phrase "taxation without representation" has no bearing on the Obama tax plan or any other tax plan or legislation within the US.



[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:31 PM
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Oooohhh Wheeeee


obama gonna mess up your lives!

Sacrifice American people, sacrifice your lives, your freedoms, your children, your time and money!

And don't worry, your western neighbors will follow suite soon enough, you won't be alone


[edit on 19-1-2009 by Gears Of War]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
You are the one that made the observations of the black community that matches stereotypes. I am the one that called YOU on it. Read your own posts.


Acknowledging the reality of my community is not a stereotype. I also know that many of the same circumstances - drug dealers, gangs, teen pregnancies that can destroy a future and make the woman think that her only option is to have more babies hoping that one of those baby daddies will stick around - happen in more than just the black community.

You saying that MY FAMILY LIFE is not typical is a stereotype. You are saying that something other than a measure of success is the typical life - even if you don't come right out and say it in so many words.


Who said that Whitey is keeping anyone down? This something you brought up, not me, nor was it stated or even implied in Obama's speech or interview comments. You brought this into the discussion. He was talking about bigotry. You said that by acknowledging bigotry, he was saying Whitey was keeping blacks down. You read this into his statement and then went on to complain about black bigotry. So, when blacks state that there are bigots, they are complaining about whitey. When whites complain about bigotry, they are making a statement regarding the conditions within the black community? This appears to be what you are saying even if you don't admit it. If not, why all the talk about how blacks hate whites and the poor conditions within the black community as you see it?


Bigot: A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

The flawed thinking that existed in the days of slavery (Obama's meaning) is still alive today. In the black community that will more often than not become translated into the thought process of "the white man is keeping us down." That is reality.

Whether you are aware of it or not, angry, misguided youths in the black community, whether they believed this before hand or not, will use this line of thinking to feed their anger. This is also reality. Why are you so offended with the truth?

BTW, did you carefully read the definition above?


"ANY family regardless of race can have the same family life I experience, all they have to do is WORK for it."

It is very nice of you to acknowledge this.


Thank you. Is should be common knowledge that doesn't need to be acknowledged.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:49 PM
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This Obma mania seems too much like Hitler Hysteria. I am worried about the new Declaration he so much wants to implement.

Hopefully Congress can keep this guy in check. If he goes unchecked I see a real problem with his Homeland Security Force. If he does get this new force to "protect us" he better train them well because a few of us won't take too kindly to SS Storm Troopers running around our cities in gold rimmed Hummers blaring rap music and shooting in the air like wild animals. We see too much of this in war torn Africa.
Here is a preview of his new security force....

On the other has maybe he is the "Chosen one".... In 6 months time peace will be declared in the Middle East, our troops will be home from Iraq and those poor boys in Gitmo will be set free to never sin again. The economy will be roaring again and everyone will get 40 acres and a mule.

Anything less and he is a failure because this is exactly what he promised.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:50 PM
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You said:

You saying that MY FAMILY LIFE is not typical is a stereotype. You are saying that something other than a measure of success is the typical life - even if you don't come right out and say it in so many words

I never said that your family life was not typical. You painted a stereotype of the black community, not me. I know it is only a stereotype and is not a reality of the true black community. You acknowledge the conditions of YOUR community, not those of all black communities. The typical black does not live in this type of community. I guess you do though.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
I know this is going to bother you, but I will say it anyway. Taxation without representation referred to the fact that the colonist had no say so in how they were taxed or governed. On the other hand, we have the members of Congress to which represent our interests. When they don't, we have the choice of not re-electing them. So, the phrase "taxation without representation" has no bearing on the Obama tax plan or any other tax plan or legislation within the US.


Really? Like the Bailout bill, like the new stimulus - even though a majority of the population are sending letters, faxes and making calls to the elected officials opposing it (and the bailout of the Big 3) Yet it STILL is passed? That is representing our interests?

Having to wait 6 years to vote an elected official out is not exactly a timely thing, now is it?

When was the last time your federal tax wage appeared on a ballot for you to vote to approve? When was the last time you could vote about HOW you were governed? Was it when the Patriot Act appeared on the general ballot - oh wait - it didn't did it?

There are no Unicorns pooping skittles and our elected officials do not give a damn about us.

Oh yeah, when was the last time you got to vote to approve a pay raise for Congress? - that comes from our taxes too



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
I never said that your family life was not typical. You painted a stereotype of the black community, not me. I know it is only a stereotype and is not a reality of the true black community. You acknowledge the conditions of YOUR community, not those of all black communities. The typical black does not live in this type of community. I guess you do though.


You didn't??!!

Did I mis-read you


Originally posted by Little Star
Secondly, the family life of a black that you describe is not the family life experienced by all or most black families, maybe just those that you are in contact with. It is also one shared by many, many white families.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:01 PM
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"Whether you are aware of it or not, angry, misguided youths in the black community, whether they believed this before hand or not, will use this line of thinking to feed their anger. This is also reality. Why are you so offended with the truth?"

Well angry and misguided people of any race are likely to grab ahold of anything and use it as an excuse to feed their anger. I am not offended with the truth. You are one narrow minded black man. The truth is that Obama did not say or imply anything that should feed their anger. If they want to interpret that way, that is their choice. The thing is to give greater opportunities to all youth. Unfortunately, white or black, if you are poor, you are presented with more chances to take your life in the wrong direction than you are in taking it in the right one. Yes, if you work hard you can prosper. That does not take away from the fact that health care in this country is in bad shape. That does not take away from the fact that public schools shoud offer kids a decent education. That does not take away from the level of hopelessness that prevades our cities and rural areas at this time in history.

"Secondly, the family life of a black that you describe is not the family life experienced by all or most black families, maybe just those that you are in contact with. It is also one shared by many, many white families."

Once again, you are taking something out of context. I was referring to your description of the black community which described it as filled with children that were desserted by their fathers, unwed mothers, drug pushers. That was your description of the black community. I pointed out that most blacks, the typical black, does not live in a community filled with these characteristics.

Our discussion is ending on my end. You can't get folks to see what is right in front of their eyes when they don't want to see it. Who needs a white man to keep them down when the black community has members like you?


[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by Little Star
 


Typical, resort to personal attacks and insults when you are shown where you are wrong.

Take care, this is the 2nd time you have said you were leaving the thread.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by redhatty
 

Yes, and I can come back to it as many times as I want also. I did not mean to attack you personally. Your ideology is one of a black man that is overly seeking approval. I am sure this has been pointed out to you many times by members of the black community, and even of your own family. If it hasn't, then I would be greatly surprised. It is your ideology I dispute. I have no personal beef with you. There is a difference. You were not succesful in showing me where I was wrong. Instead, you took my statements out of context in an attempt to avoid what I confronted you with.

It is pointless to debate issues with someone that consistently takes what is said out of context in attempts to prove an invalid point or to prove a falsehood. Palin did it through out the election as did McCain. This is why they lost. Most Americans, black and white recognized this. But, then I guess you didn't because you have much better insights than all of them put together?

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:29 PM
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Thought America was the big melting pot, but its lot of talk about black/white. Interesting to have some insight in the declaration part with Jefferson's and the bill of rights. Not really understand the victimization-role in these days though. My ancestors were slaves in caesars roman empire, but it doesn't bother me.

Maybe in 4yr a Native American could run for president of the United States. Why not the whole melting pot. Otherwise its still a racial thing.



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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No one was talking about victimization. The discussion was about the existence of bigotry, the redhat guy turned into a discussion accusing Obama of talking about victimization. Apparently, he, redhat guy, hears the word bigotry, and that is what he thinks of.

Obama was talking about the fact that bigotry still exists in this country. Nothing more. Not many people would deny this. It would be nice if we could get beyond this in our society. But, pretending it is gone, is not going to make it go away. Saying that it fires up blacks to violent acts is to deny that there exists within the minds of blacks the ability to think in ways that are non-violent in order to resolve issues. This guy, redhat, a black man, seems to believe that there is something lacking in the black community at large that would allow them, even though they have proven over and over a belief in non-violence, to be able to think for themselves.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by Little Star
Yes, and I can come back to it as many times as I want also.


You absolutely can



I did not mean to attack you personally.



You are one narrow minded black man.


Who needs a white man to keep them down when the black community has members like you?


If you say so....


Your ideology is one of a black man that is overly seeking approval. I am sure this has been pointed out to you many times by members of the black community, and even of your own family. It is your ideology I dispute. I have no personal beef with you. There is a difference.


Nope. That has never been said to me before, ever. You see, #1 you do not know ME. You have an "anonymous" bunch of words in front of you, a very short interaction with me and you think you have me all summed up. You are sadly mistaken.

In fact, until I clearly said that I was part of the black community, your entire focus was to the effect of Bigotry exists today, but Oh My, when you are told that bigotry exists in the race you *thought* you were defending, then you proceed to attack, argue and dismiss the objective view from the other side of the fence.

You don't even realize it, I know you don't but your reaction and arguments display MORE Bigotry than my objective observations about real life as a black person.


It is pointless to debate issues with someone that consistently takes what is said out of context in attempts to prove an invalid point or to prove a falsehood. Palin did it through out the election as did McCain.


Oh my was that another subtle dig? Do you think you are going to hurt me by comparing me to McCain and Palin? You are wrong.

But the first part of your assertion is right. So I do believe my debate with you is through. Nice to see you projecting your behavior on me though



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:55 PM
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Well. Most people all over the world are bigots. You can be political correct or say nothing. I think people should be allowed to have their opinion even if it makes no sense, but limited to racism. Would be nice if everyone could get along and understand everything, but bigotry has no colors its second nature.

Curious though. If the declaration of independence would have been re-written if this is a symbolic gesture to the part in the final draft left out by Jefferson?

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Stranded]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 08:04 PM
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I don't think that it is second nature. I think it appears to be second nature but is brought to the surface by the conditions that exist in our world. If the struggle isn't about race, it is about religion. If it isn't religion, it is nationality. If it isn't nationality, it is economic status at birth. One day, I don't know when, we will be able to see each other in ways that go beyond this.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Little Star]




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