In Philadelphia This Morning, Obama to Call for "A New Declaration of Independence"

Originally posted by Little Star
reply to post by redhatty

 

He said that the flaw was in the "thinking" of the times. The thinking he was referring to was that which allowed slavery to continue.

Then, he says that the same type of flawed THINKING continues to this day. Which is referring to the bigotry that is still in existence in this country.

Laws against discrimination may hold those guilty in the various sectors of our society guilty for having acted against an individual in a discriminatory manner. However, they do not eliminate the THINKING that caused the discrimination.

True, but a person's thoughts are their own. We do not, nor do we want a "thought police." Real life is not a showing of Minority Report with a pre-crime division - nor should it be.

There are bigots in every race, religion and creed - all over the world.

I don't think humans have evolved far enough for bigotry to be just a piece of history.

So we - as a species - are still flawed. That does NOT mean that we need another member or group of our species to police or control us because we are still evolving. We simply need time to grow.

So now are you accusing Obama of wanting to start some type of "thought police" organization. The man was merely making an observation about a reality within our society and how that was a reality at the time the Constitution was written. If you look hard enough for something negative, you are going to find it. There is no conspiracy here to start policing people's thoughts. That would be impossible. It would have to go through freedom of speech or the right to privacy type surpression. Bush did that. Obama advocates removing the laws that eroded the rights to privacy. He says this in his speech.

Originally posted by Little Star
So now are you accusing Obama of wanting to start some type of "thought police" organization. The man was merely making an observation about a reality within our society and how that was a reality at the time the Constitution was written. If you look hard enough for something negative, you are going to find it. There is no conspiracy here to start policing people's thoughts. That would be impossible. It would have to go through freedom of speech or the right to privacy type surpression. Bush did that. Obama advocates removing the laws that eroded the rights to privacy. He says this in his speech.

Wow. Amazing isn't it, I respond to YOUR comments and you twist it into me accusing Obama of something. That's some serious mental calisthenics!!

I was responding to this part of YOUR COMMENTS

Laws against discrimination may hold those guilty in the various sectors of our society guilty for having acted against an individual in a discriminatory manner. However, they do not eliminate the THINKING that caused the discrimination.

If you seriously need to twist my words into something they are not to appease your own self, be my guest, but at least own what you are doing.

Right!.. I listened to his vid "the one posted"..

And from what I got from it.. was that.

Get off your lazy #ss and chip in around and help people out... get envolved in your local commuity.. Demand more from US "ie him"..

By demanding change on the ground.. "your movment" is HIS movent..

like He said, the media totaly got it wrong.. and its really funny if you listen to some of his interviews..

He said in one of them. I knew I could win! If I made it about the people and not me...

This guy is FAR from stupid...

He may not be perfect but He does love the USA.. and what it means to him so even with all the NWO stuff going on I think personaly hes going to be try...

I mean Look at JFK?? we know what happend to him but he wanted to get rid of the FED and the CIA

Now thats CHANGE ; )

lets see what he does, hes not even POTUS yet!!!

First... The Declaration of Independance was a document stating the independance from Brittian. Other then the purpose of it over 200 years ago, it has no other purpose and is only a document of our history holds no weight in anything of our current standing or any standing of government after the US Constitution. If it does, then so do the Articles of Confederation. If you read the constitution, the president does have limited powers. He is not a king and Congress is the lawmaking body. The president can't just make up stuff and have it be, it all must be approved. Furthermore, the US President according to the US Constitution is NOT elected by the people! A college of "electors" are APPOINTED by the state government who elects the president. So the people voted for the president is pointless and only gives a faulse sence of control when in fact they have none! If people would actually read the constitution and stop making out of it what it does NOT say, they maybe there will be less confusion. Obama can anything he wants to say, but that don't make it law. And the fact many people voted for him purely on race, I hope they are in for a rude awaking, I pray he succeeds and I give him all my support as my president, but for those who elected him just because he's black, and not fully black anyhow, I hope he fails and those people get a serious wake up call.

Originally posted by lunarminer
First, I would be a lot happier with our new President if he realized that Abraham Lincoln had jack to do with writing the "old" Declaration of Independence.

Seriously, these kinds of mistakes make the man look like an idiot.

Yes, mistakes like this make people look like idiots. As LittleStar said, he made no such insinuation. So, I guess you're a lot happier with him now.

Obama is a Constitutional Lawyer. He knows about the founding documents.

Originally posted by redhatty
So we - as a species - are still flawed. That does NOT mean that we need another member or group of our species to police or control us because we are still evolving. We simply need time to grow.

I personally don't care how you (generic) think, who you hate or who you think is "beneath you" or even if you have a group of bigots that meet each week to discuss your thoughts. But when you take action against a group, that's where the Constitution and the law comes in.

And I dare say that if you were a member of one of those groups, you might not be as willing to give those oppressing you "more time to grow"...

I'm not suggesting thought police. The thought repulses me. But people are equal and should be treated equally and I'm not willing to wait for the most bigoted in this country to "grow" into that before demanding it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by redhatty
So we - as a species - are still flawed. That does NOT mean that we need another member or group of our species to police or control us because we are still evolving. We simply need time to grow.

I personally don't care how you (generic) think, who you hate or who you think is "beneath you" or even if you have a group of bigots that meet each week to discuss your thoughts. But when you take action against a group, that's where the Constitution and the law comes in.

And I dare say that if you were a member of one of those groups, you might not be as willing to give those oppressing you "more time to grow"...

I'm not suggesting thought police. The thought repulses me. But people are equal and should be treated equally and I'm not willing to wait for the most bigoted in this country to "grow" into that before demanding it.

Ouch, did that come across as such? when I said "group" I was referring to a policing force type group. I thought the thought would follow after the minority report comparison, I guess I was wrong.

I don't like bigots either, but if someone is a bigot and all they do is gripe and moan about things, there is nothing that can be done. If they act on their bigotry in a way that is not legal, then they should be made to face punishment.

And I would have to say that South Africa is still the "most bigoted" country, even after the end of apartheid.

Slavery existed for well over 6000 years of recorded history. There is not a single race on the face of the earth that was not at one time part of a slave population. It's been less than 200 years since the abolishment of slavery in the modern world - and there are still some places where slavery exists.

If it took 5800 years to get that far, you have to realize that it will take time for human beings to let go of bigotry.

Am I happy about that? No. Can I change it - I can only change myself and set an example for others. Can I call someone out on it, yes, appropriately, of course. But I can change no one but myself.

Maybe there will come a day when our love for others outshines our love for anything else, including our ideologies. But until then we can only continue to grow.

Forcing people to change only causes resentment. Resentment leads to more bigotry. bad bad cycle there

[edit on 1/18/09 by redhatty]

red, I'm just saying that if people are oppressing other people, we DO need a member or group to prevent that oppression by enforcing the laws and the words of the Constitution, because, according to the Constitution, we are all equal under the law.

We don't need anyone to tell us how to think. I'm not talking about forcing people to change their minds. I'm talking about PROTECTING people whose rights are guaranteed. But some people, sadly, need to be told how they can and cannot ACT. They don't just need time to grow and evolve. We can't wait until people are truly equal-minded and non-bigoted and decide on their own to treat people equally. I don't think we'll all ever get to that point. But we can enforce the equality that the Constitution guarantees.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Absolutely!

We completely agree on this.

Follow and enforce the laws that protect people from acts of bigotry, prosecute those who don't.

Absolutely!!

typos

[edit on 1/18/09 by redhatty]

reply to post by Stormdancer777
Obama isn't talking about literally writing a new Declaration of Independence. He is using it as a figure of speech, and I can't believe that it went over so many heads here.

It seems like anytime any leader says something, there are people here who totally misinterpret it and take it literally.

I know this site's motto is to "deny ignorance", but some of you are taking it a bit too far. You're denying your own ignorance and making fools of yourselves. I'm the furthest thing from an Obama fan and when it comes time to criticize him for something, I am going to use the facts to do it and not twist his words.

So many of you are too desperate to find conspiracies where there are none. Add that to the fact that a lot of you are overzealous when it comes to creating threads and racking up points as if it actually means something. The point system totally undermines any hopes for intelligent, thought-provoking conversation on this board. I'm not saying that the OP started this thread to get points or anything, but there are plenty of point mongers here and folks who are obsessed with having people think they are conspiracy experts and have uncovered the latest conspiracy through their awesome investigative skills.

reply to post by redhatty
Those 56 men pledged their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor, for the cause of freedom.
I, too, am ashamed of what this country has become.


[edit on 18-1-2009 by kettlebellysmith]

reply to post by lunarminer

"Then they might be inclined to write to their Congressman."

Like they wrote to them about the bailout of the thieves ?

That went well...

reply to post by Rasputin13

"Obama isn't talking about literally writing a new Declaration of Independence. He is using it as a figure of speech, and I can't believe that it went over so many heads here.

It seems like anytime any leader says something, there are people here who totally misinterpret it and take it literally."

A quote of mine...

Fear sees shadows real and imagined.

reply to post by Ahabstar
Back in the days before radio and TV they called them Chataquas. They were smilar to a traveling circus, except that learned men would give lectures, or have debates.
It was a way for the people to connect with the great thinkers of the day.
Perhaps it's time to bring it back.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
So many of you are too desperate to find conspiracies where there are none.

I just have to say that I see this so much, it's getting difficult to take. Someone shakes a hand and their finger touches the other's wrist and suddenly, it's some freemason handshake or something. Someone says Obama will have challenges and suddenly, they were talking about something specific and "let the cat out of the bag". Someone uses the words "son of our village" and suddenly it's an admission that Obama was born in Kenya!

Jees! It's like dealing with 14-year-olds. I'm all for being skeptical and looking for conspiracies, but it really takes away from the spirit of conspiracy theorism when every word, every phrase, every act becomes a conspiracy.

reply to post by redhatty

Read my post again. I asked you a question. I did not twist your words. If asking you a question regarding the intention of your thread where you clearly stated something regarding thought police is twisting your words, then so be it.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

I too wrote daily to my elected officials for awhile. They eventually "answered" with the usual mildly relevant form letter. The system itself has been badly corrupted. It's not that we need to change the documents this country was founded on, just actually follow them. But our elected officials, once they get to state capitols or Washington DC find that they must pay to play, bargain for votes and programs. There is no actual accountability to constituents. They actually come to believe that bringing home that bridge to nowhere is a victory for "their" people.

I can't see how marches would really help. There is an official tactic for that too. Acknowledge and even agree with the cause. Promise to do something but remind the protestors that it takes time. Then do whatever you want.

We must somehow figure out a way to say NO WE DON'T WANT YOU TO DO THIS. In the end, with government, it's all about the money. If we could stop them controlling the money we'd have a chance.

What's the deal with the new federal bank Obama wants to set up to "hold" bad debt? UK is doing the same thing.

Originally posted by Little Star
reply to post by redhatty

 

Read my post again. I asked you a question. I did not twist your words. If asking you a question regarding the intention of your thread where you clearly stated something regarding thought police is twisting your words, then so be it.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

I read your post again. you said

So now are you accusing Obama of wanting to start some type of "thought police" organization.

That is not a question, that is a statement.

A question would have began, "Are you..." and finished with a "?"

Maybe YOU need to go back and read your post. there is not a single question in there.

Remember, as I said before, I was responding to your statement

Laws against discrimination may hold those guilty in the various sectors of our society guilty for having acted against an individual in a discriminatory manner. However, they do not eliminate the THINKING that caused the discrimination.

you took my response to your opinion and twisted it into me accusing Obama of something, which I never did in my response.

btw, I am honored to be one of your respected foes. First time anyone has put me there

You are not one of my "respected foes". You are not my foe. I don't have any "foes" and don't go around labeling people as such. I just dont' agree with you. That doesn't make you my foe.

It was my intention to present it as a question as it did appear to me that you were suggesting something of that nature. If you were not, and I was mistaken, and am sorry for the miscommunication. You are going to have to wait for someone to bestow the honor of respected foe upon you. I didn't come here to fight with anyone. I saw the title of the thread and wondered what the heck type of misinformation were people swallowing now. I read it and tried to clear up the issue with a bit of truth. Apparently, my efforts were not effective. So, I leave you now.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Little Star]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread.