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Fresh evidence of Israeli phosphorus use in Gaza emerges

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posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 08:41 PM
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defendant, I do understand your concern. Maybe I can help you to understand how this happens, not why.

In combat, things are generally happening fast. Targets rarely stay stationary.

If you are fighting, you do what we call "return fire." If you're in the desert, you're looking for dust or some other indicator to help you identify the source of the incoming fire. You see dust in the distance, you fire at where the dust is getting kicked up.

In cities, you're looking at corners, roofs, windows, and so on. Looking for movement or flashes. You return fire through those windows, that roof, or that edge of the building.

If your opponents are firing rockets, then all you need to know is that you can backtrack it's launch area by looking at the ignition trail. You fire at the location of the launcher.

This is all happening very fast, because these telltale signs are very rapidly gone.

Now if the dumbasses fire their rockets from a hospital roof, a school, an old folks home, an apartment building, a food storage facility, or even a water tower, you don't really think too much about what is underneath or next to the launch position.

You have it in your sights, you target that spot, and you fire.

So if your enemy wishes for civilians to die, they will intentionally fire from these sensitive positions. There's no other earthly reason.

No sane, rational, prudent person would fire these rockets from the locations they are fired from. They generally fire, haul ass, and let whoever is still nearby holding the bag.

With Hamas and even Hizballah, they don't care for the innocents around them. They just want deaths. And either one works in their favor.

And rather than use uniforms, they will dress as civilians so that the "civilian" deaths will be inflated.

It's all formula.




posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


I agree that dead is dead, but I have a slight difference on one part of that. That is HOW I or some other gets killed. To get a bullet in the head is one thing, but to be quartered or burned at the stake is another. Napalm in civilian areas sounds a little too cruel to me. Aren't we supposed to kill the enemy, not torchur him? Even in geurilla warfare tactic status, the idea of torchur was out of the picture.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by defendant
 

To tell you honestly, fighting and war is brutal. Just no other way to do it. There is no neat, clean way to conduct warfare.

When it comes to the killing, you'll use whatever you have. Rifle, knife, cinder block, stick, bomb, mortar, artillery, spear, hammer, hatchet, grenades, fire, chemicals, beat them with your helmet, rip their throats out with your teeth, and you'll even strangle or drown them if you have to.

In modern times, we just keep finding new, efficient ways to kill each other. If I have a rock in my hand, and my opponent is sitting over there with an AK, a grenade launcher, a pack full of ammo, and a machine gun, I've got to be one dumb, simple-minded, stupid SOB to throw my rock at him.

It's suicide.

You see, this is nature's way of saying, "Dooper, you're one big dumbass, and shouldn't breed."

Never, ever start a fight you aren't certain you can win.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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The thing about the Hamas soldiers in Gaza being dressed in civilian clothes is something that I was not aware of. That fact didn't get reported on the channel I watch or I missed it. I did beleive that the Hamas soldiers warded civilians out of the schools and mosks before using them as launching pads and were planning on after-war repairs like as Hezballah did. I know that I sound like I am totally siding with Hamas, but no, I do think Isreal has had an advantage over them for a while and also, there is a lot of twisting and distorting af facts of matter in regard to the nature of these so-called "islamic extremists". Exageration about how they have no empathy for fellow soldiers and citizens and how they kill you if you dont renounce Jesus Christ. That is distortion at the least. I just wish for this stinking war to END.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by defendant
 

I can assure you, that many feel exactly as you do, including Palestinian Gazans, and Israelis as well.

Most people want peace.

But in every generation, there are a minority of yahoos who decide the rules, the lines, the peace isn't worth their station, and so they foul it up for others.

Nothing will change their minds, nothing will appeal to their sense of obligation to those around them. They will kill just because they can.

And not only there. Everywhere. Just more fanatics over in Islam-land, as it's sanctioned by their prophet and their god.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 

I have given a lot of thought as to why Hamas was fighting this fight as to which they hardly have a chance to win. And it would be less bloody by far if they were to surrender. I honestly do not know what the circumstances for Hamas would be if they were to do so though. Maybe they would rather die fighting than to easily surrender. And if that were out of hate and anger towards Isreal than surrenduring would be the better idea of course. But if it is fear of great oppresiive mistreatment than maybe they have reason for going so darn crazy. If they are using religion for their reason for this, then they might go to hell for it, I hope they are not using religion as an excuse for the bloodshed.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by dooper


Israel is using White Phosphorous. So?



At the end of the day, it matters not whether you got killed with a bullet, a grenade, an artillery shell of either White Phosphorous, High Explosive, inert darts, throat cut with a knife, head smashed with a cinder block..




What about a gas chamber ?





It's just another weapon


Indeed.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by rich23
 


Lets make conclusions based on some photographs which OBVIOUSLY couldn't possibly tell an entire account of the situation and could quite possibly be HEAVILY bias toward one side. Maybe the photographer excluded images that might indicate there were terrorists there to further his/her own agenda.

Investigation isn't a couple photos...shame on ATS for universally stooping to this level, and that is in regard to just about every post in this thread.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 11:24 PM
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IDF has shelled Gaza with more white phosphorus bombs after calling for a unilateral ceasefire . www.presstv.ir...§ionid=351020202



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by grimreaper797
 


While your scruples about the images are admirable, for myself I'm no longer inclined to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. I might have once, and I acknowledge the theoretical correctness of your stance, but you know what? They've killed so many people, lied so often, and made life intolerable for the Palestinians for so long, I'm not disposed to give them any more rope.

Also, you might like to note that in the second photo, people are on a basketball court. It looks like a school to me.

If the Israelis are prepared to bomb schools, hospitals and even the UN compound - normally I'd give links for all of this but I'm feeling lazy (and I suspect you've seen these reports too) - it's not any kind of a stretch to say they're using WP indiscriminately.

And in one of your earlier posts you say how appalled you'd be at that prospect. Why is is so hard for you to accept that this is actually happening?



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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I continue to be suprised by the genocidal apologists supporting IsraHELL's campaign of extermination! It is evident to me that these people are either Jewish Zionists or complete morons; both one in the same if you ask me.

It is time for massive political change in world. It is time that the citizens of the US and Europe stand up and DEMAND that their governments STOP supporting the 4th Reich known as Israel. I can see what is coming and it is not pretty. This will give birth to the Mother of all wars; a war where very few will stand and fight to protect Israel. Their downfall will their own doing and I, for one, welcome it wholeheartedly. For never before in the history of mankind has a single race exhibited such bigotry and wanton arrogance - "God's chosen people" my ass!
God would never "Choose" a people who exibit such callousness and hatred for other human beings.

Allow me to be clear to those of who would call me an anti-semite... I am neither anti-semitic nor am I bigot. I have many Jewish friends who condemn, without conditions, the indescriminate killing and campaign of genocide being waged by Israel. No, my hatred and disdain are for Zionism and its practitioners. I anxiously await the day that the UN, as a whole - with or without the approval of the United States, itself a Zionist entity - take Israel to task and begin charging its leadership with war crimes.

We have placed our faith in our political leadership yet they stand impotent against what is happening. Yes, changes must be made and they must start with each individual. A massive groundswell of discontent must wash over our current world political structure forcing them to finally follow the will of the poeples of the world - peace, liberty and prosperity for all. We must demand that the shackles of Zionism be cast off and the nation of Israel be returned to its rightful owners - the arabs who have inhabited and tilled the land for thousands of years. Until then, there will be no peace. Only the continued western sanctioned and funded genocide of a complete race of people.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by dooper
 


The 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons prohibits use of incendiaries against civilians and demands that forces using them against military targets take all available steps to avoid civilian casualties.

www.independent.co.uk...

As you can see in this thread alone the IDF were NOT taking steps to avoid civillian casualties!

were you a regular grunt in the army,did you do all that fun bunker clearing in the latest Iraq war or was it Afganistan-or are you an old Nam vet?Couldnt you get another job?lol

So when Sadam's henchmen gassed the kurds he could have got away with war crimes if he used High Explosives and said he was targetting terrorists?after all it doesnt matter how they die if there dead there dead!

I think Falluja and Gazza will change fighting tactics,as any country now involved in future wars can use WP in built up areas because America and Israel did.

Hopefully future troops will not find it fun to throw WP grenades into buildings,or let the fire drop from the sky.Would be great if todays troops have more humanity than drooper on this site,as I wouldnt like the idea of somone enjoying the use of WP and HE walking around my streets looking for a reason to use them



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by noangels
 


Noangels, the Isrealis are targeting Hamas. This is going to be a real revelation to you, but when using high energy weapons of any type, and your enemies hide and conduct warfare among civilians, then you're going to get civilian casualties. Shocker, huh?

I completed Special Forces training, had four separate combat MOS's, served in two Ranger Companies, and was "loaned" to line companies. I don't think that qualifies me as a "grunt" as you put it, but I can think of no higher honor.

I've done my service.

What have you done?



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 



I cleared 88 underground bunkers, including an underground field hospital


and that makes you equal to the nazi`s at Birkenau

admitting to commiting war crimes.

you should be hanged scum.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 01:18 PM
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You know I actually missed this post first time round...


Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by rich23
 

rich23, you don't have to lecture me on what white phosphorous does. I used it myself in combat. I used to carry two WP grenades at all times. Loved the stuff. Loved its capacity. Loved the results.


Just LOVE the way that goes with your signature. Compare:


A capacity for great, ruthless violence is never to be equated with a preference for great, ruthless violence.


Looks as if you have both. And you're proud to have done what you did. You "loved the results", eh? You're proud to have served.

Now you probably think that you were "defending the freedoms the rest of us take for granted," or some such mindless guff. Keep reading these boards and you might wake up to the fact that you were serving people who didn't give the proverbial rat's behind for anyone's freedom.

Ever heard of Brigadier-General Smedley D. Butler's book "War Is A Racket"? Now that guy, to me, is a real hero. Someone who saw through the charade of patriotism. He stuck up for his men, too. Interestingly, his Wikipedia entry contains no reference to an incident in which he led a march of war veterans on Washington to get the USG to cough up money they'd promised for aid to those maimed in WWI.

He also prevented a right-wing coup in the US in the inter-war years. That, at least, did make it into his Wiki entry.


I cleared 88 underground bunkers, including an underground field hospital and mess facilities, one at a time using both propane and white phosphorous.


As another poster has remarked, that field hospital thing is a war crime. Of which you're obviously proud. As you're a US war criminal, it's unlikely you'll ever face the trial you seem to deserve.


With a shot of propane, it would seep and spread all throughout the floor of the bunker. Toss in a WP to ensure good ignition, and what isn't charred, is asphyxiated.


See what I mean about your sig? It starts to look a bit hypocritical when you post this kind of thing.


In your expert opinion, is it more humane to use HE (high explosive) WP (white phosphorous), Napalm (jellied, thickended fuel) single burst warheads, cluster bombs, or thermobaric explosives in either grenades, 40mm grenades, or bombs?


Ah yes, the old "have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?" gag. Hilarious. You might be good at killing people when you have a weapons advantage, but logic clearly isn't your strong suit.

As a US soldier, you don't really have to worry about the legality of your actions in war. Realistically, prosecuting US soldiers for war crimes is never going to happen. But if Israel continues to be so blatant about what they're doing, there's a small but inclreasingly likely probability that their soldiers might.

Perhaps you might want to confine your comments to military matters and leave ethics and morality to those of us who give a toss.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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I’m not sure if this is the same thing as phosphorus bombs, but, regardless it’s another (?) example of the atrocities perpetrated by Israel.

This video (click here) tells of *proof* Israel is using *DIME* bombs.



Dr Gilbert, a Norwegian Dr has just confirmed on PRESS TV that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon that shred’s the body in pieces.

If the person lives they will develop Cancer and Leukemia.

The Dr has said that these weapons are against international law and that most people coming into the hospital have been injured by this weapon, women and children have been affected by this weapon.

They are called Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME).

Apparently it’s, designed for low “collateral damage” yet, it is highly carcinogenic and harmful to the environment.

Doctors in Gaza noticed cases of amputated limbs with evidence of intense heat at the point of amputation but no shrapnel.


*P*E*A*C*E*



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Harlequin, you state that I should be hanged. You're mighty welcome to give it a whirl if you think you may be up to it. I've had scores and scores of men try to kill me in one way or another, but each time, they didn't quite measure up. Maybe you're different.

We had overrun a large, Regimental size bunker complex. Traditional methods consisted of tossing in a grenade, and going in with a Model 1911 .45, one at a time. I told them I could clear them all without anyone of ours getting killed, and it would only take five minutes per bunker. Ended up more like three.

This wasn't a war crime. You are so completely ignorant of what a war crime is. I hate to upset your delicate sensitivities, but there's a number of ways to eradicate your enemy that are entirely lawful, but will make a man puke.

For every definition of a war crime, there's a loophole. For example, non-uniformed combatants have zero protection. None. You can do anything you want. Anything.

It may be better for you to comment on subjects you may have a bit of knowledge. Maybe a BTS thread on cooking.

Rich23, yes, I am proud of what I did. Every time I met my enemy in mortal combat and won, it was good. Always outnumbered, against some of the best fighting men on earth, we prevailed every time.

You suggest that I was somehow serving people who didn't care about freedoms?

What an asinine statement. I was fighting for those with me. We fought for each other. Not God, not country, not the Generals, not for Mom. For each other.

And if you think that you clear a dark underground tunnel and bunker complex by wandering from room to room, taking careful inventory and counting heads, then I hope you know as much about reproduction as you apparently know about fighting.

You come to an entry, tunnel, room, or channel, and you light it up. It's dark, it's dangerous, people have weapons, they are waiting on you, and so you don't announce yourself.

Of course, you would. Once.

War crimes! Hell, you would have piched a bitch over our interrogations.

Your mistake is in trying to apply civic virtues in a combat arena, where military virtues are polar opposites of civic virtues.

Only after the military has ruthlessly destroyed all threats to civic virtues, can they be enabled.

In fighting, there is no justice. In fighting there is no law. There is no morality. And there damned sure aren't any ethics.

But after the fighting is done, you philosophers, moralists, and whiners are welcome to come in and do your thing.

Because you can only maintain your position by standing on the shoulders of men like me.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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As I expected, indeed, explicitly anticipated... in an earlier post, I said


Now you probably think that you were "defending the freedoms the rest of us take for granted," or some such mindless guff.


And predictably, you're straight back with,


Because you can only maintain your position by standing on the soldiers of men like me


Nonsense. This is a ludicrous assertion and it's up to you to back it up. I'd fight if my country were attacked. I wouldn't go and subdue countries that my government disagreed with because I've got enough sense to look into the politics of what's going on. If you can give any examples of places you've killed people perhaps I can enlighten you as to the real reasons you were there. Certainly


You suggest that I was somehow serving people who didn't care about freedoms?

What an asinine statement. I was fighting for those with me. We fought for each other. Not God, not country, not the Generals, not for Mom. For each other.


Oh the corps, the corps... so you just somehow magically found yourself in a place where people were trying to kill you? You fought for your friends, that's natural, even laudable, and it makes you look less of a psychopath than some of your other statements.

But as statements go, yours is the one that's asinine. It conveniently ignores the fact that wherever you went, you were placed by your government. Or did you just wake up one day to find yourself in enemy territory fighting for your life? How did that happen?

And don't forget, "I was just obeying orders" is not a defence against war crimes.

So what emerges is a clear picture of someone whose skill is in killing people, who enjoys it (despite lame protestations to the contrary in your sig), and who doesn't look too far into why he's being afforded the opportunity to do what he does best.

instead you comfort yourself with windy nonsense like


Only after the military has ruthlessly destroyed all threats to civic virtues, can they be enabled.


If you have any specific arenas that you'd care to divulge that you actually fought in, we can examine that statement more closely and expose it for the pompous windbaggery that it is. A clear-eyed view of US history (as espoused by Smedley Butler, of whom you don't seem to have heard) shows that the US is actually a threat to civic virtues, which undercuts your argument.

If you'd like to give me an example of what you were doing was destroying a threat to civic virtues, great. I'm looking forward to it. Meanwhile, the point of the thread is that what Israel is doing is an obscenity out of all proportion to any damage inflicted upon it: and that damage is only to be expected if you steal land from a couple of million people, herd them into ghettos, deprive them of food and water, enforce Nazi-style laws depriving them of basic rights like freedom of movement and association, take random pot-shots at them, bulldoze their homes... the list goes on and on.

All of which the Israelis are doing. I'd say that for the Palestinians, the Israelis are the threat to civic virtues. But because they're so heavily out-gunned, the Palestinians, who are, after all, only trying to defend themselves against a state armed and equipped pretty much for free by good old Uncle Sam, are idiots.

in an earlier post, you said,


If I have a rock in my hand, and my opponent is sitting over there with an AK, a grenade launcher, a pack full of ammo, and a machine gun, I've got to be one dumb, simple-minded, stupid SOB to throw my rock at him.


No, you simply have to be desperate, literally driven to despair by the way you're forced to live under Israeli rule. But as you've been conditioned to think of those people as the enemy rather than as patriots, and as you've grown up in a state that swallows its own propaganda wholesale, it's going to be hard for you to understand that.

You see, I'm not maintaining my position on "the shoulders of people like [you]". That honour goes to people like Dick Cheney, ex-CEO of Halliburton; the Bush family, heavy investors in the Carlyle Group; and those few others who make money out of war.

They're the ones who are maintaining their position on the shoulders of people like you.

And your willingness to blind yourself to this reality makes you their compliant, unwitting tool. All that stuff about fighting for your comrades in arms is just convenient nonsense to get you through.

There are, truly, none so blind as those who will not see. However, when the blinkers come off, those concerned can get pretty angry. I've met quite a few in these forums myself.

Of course, they tend to be the ones with a shred of conscience about what they've done.

Edited to correct bolding error

[edit on 18-1-2009 by rich23]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by rich23
 


No, you wouldn't fight in any shape, form, or fashion, for any reason. What was it you said, "I'd look into the politics of what's going on." You're much too good. You're above all that nasty government/preservation/corruption. I guarantee, whatever side the government took, you'd take the other to avoid any personal effort.

Don't feel bad. Cowardice is evident where one is always able to find an excuse for it. You keep telling yourself that you're above the need to participate in a common group need which is commonly used to conceal cowardice.

Those who are good in combat don't discover that until actually engaged in combat. You don't know that you could fight, because you've never done it.

Fire proves both gold and men.

You want an example of my actions facilitating civic virtues? I can't give one.

We did come upon a remote, peaceful village, isolated, quiet, and beautiful until we walked in. Some of my enemy had just left a few hours earlier. They had taken three young villagers with them in their version of a "draft."

At the moment, there was no village chief, as he, his wife, and their two children were killed. Because the chief resisted their "draft."

We tracked them for three days. We willfully violated international law as they crossed the border into another country, where we caught up to them.

I violated almost every moral teaching I had ever been exposed to that day. I made the very most of a cold, self-serving fury that I am thankful that I have, and on that day I enjoyed each and every moment. I intentionally violated every human right and customary conduct of warfare you can think of that day.

I sincerely mean every word with the greatest of honesty when I tell you that I don't give a tinker's damn what your opinion is about me, or men like me. Your opinion doesn't count. You don't count. You never count. Because people like you can never be counted on. You don't even know what's on the line.

People like you can never be counted on. Not when it comes time to do the hard things. The necessary things.

You know that white stuff in chikenschitt? It's chikenschitt too.

And my conscience as you ask? Clean as a whistle.

There's a lot of SOB's like me that are armed and vigilant, including both gatekeepers and far archers.

So you can sleep warm and snug in your little crib tonight.



[edit on 18-1-2009 by dooper]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by dooper]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by rich23
 


No, you wouldn't fight in any shape, form, or fashion, for any reason.


You don't know that. Like anyone else, I'd fight if cornered. When the Falklands were invaded, I was in a killing rage for about half an hour. Then I woke up and thought, "hang on, where are the Falklands?" I understand from personal experience what an irrational thing patriotism is.

Hold on! A psychic speaks...


You're much too good. You're above all that nasty government/preservation/corruption. I guarantee, whatever side the government took, you'd take the other to avoid any personal effort.


All a mighty inference from my posts. Can you back this up with any evidence? You may note that any judgment I've made on your character has been based strictly on, and directly tied in, to things you've said.

I'm not young any more. But I guarantee you this: if my country were invaded I'd be out there, just like the schoolteachers who tried to stand against overwhelming technology and odds in Fallujah.

On the other hand, if it was my country telling me to go and kill some people just so some few of them could go and get rich, I'd be smart enough to recognise it and courageous enough to tell them to take a hike. It's that simple.


You want an example of my actions facilitating civic virtues? I can't give one.


No surprises there. I also wanted an example of a country in which you fought, so we could look at a wider context than you being simply magicked into position so you could fight your way out. No luck there, either, but you did say in an earlier post that you wouldn't get involved in a fight you couldn't win. I'm willing to debate you on the issues... but I think you know you're losing, so you resort to calling me a coward. Which, I'm happy to admit, I am.


We did come upon a remote, peaceful village, isolated, quiet, and beautiful until we walked in.


Yup.


Some of my enemy had just left a few hours earlier. They had taken three young villagers with them in their version of a "draft."


Thought you said it was quiet and peaceful until you walked in? Sorry, I'm being picky, but it's too easy to resist. And that "MY" enemy... weird use of language.


Your opinion doesn't count. You don't count. You never count. Because people like you can never be counted on. You don't even know what's on the line.


Actually, I think I do, rather better than you seem to. You keep falling back on this whole "people like you sleep safe in your beds because of people like me" (see below...) and I keep asking you to give an example of where you fought so we can examine the truth of this statement. What's on the line is people like you being used to interfere with other nations so Uncle Sam gets his trade advantages, access to raw materials, or can encircle his "enemies". I'm prepared to debate this point, but you're not able to, it seems.


You know that white stuff in chikenschitt? It's chikenschitt too.


Fantastic argument! Rapier-like wit combined with a stinging rebuke. Oh, sorry, nodded off there and was thinking about something else. Can you actually reason and debate, you know, marshal facts, put sentences together, that sort of thing? I'm waiting.

I feel like I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Hardly sporting really, but there it is.


There's a lot of SOB's like me that are armed and vigilant,
including both gatekeepers and far archers.

So you can sleep warm and snug in your little crib tonight.


AGAIN with this? I keep asking you to back this up with examples so we can debate it. Otherwise it's meaningless verbiage. You might have noticed I anticipated this argument right from the start and dealt with it. It's kind of the logical version of the pre-emptive strike, which I thought you might understand - but it seems to have sailed straight over your head. To continue with this, without backing it up, simply isn't very bright.

I keep looking to you to back up your vague macho posturings with actual examples so we can see whether this windiness has any basis in reality. No sign so far of any willingness to actually argue in any rational way. Debate the issues or beat your chest somewhere else, how about it?



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