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Fathers Rights Call to Arms

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posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by T1M3K33P3R
This is no light matter. When this economy crashes out but yet the child support laws remain the same (if not become tougher!), all of you fathers will be in for a big surprise!


You go in and have an adjustment done.

Again, that these things aren't apparent to you is surprising.

Further, you would of COURSE prefer to not notice that your child's need for food and clothing doesn't go away because it is now INCONVENIENT for you.




posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


People like you throw the fuel on the fire to begin with. Its not your ignorance that makes me mad .. its your arrogance.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 03:36 PM
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Too freakin' bad. It isn't all about you.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Aeons

Originally posted by T1M3K33P3R
This is no light matter. When this economy crashes out but yet the child support laws remain the same (if not become tougher!), all of you fathers will be in for a big surprise!


You go in and have an adjustment done.

Again, that these things aren't apparent to you is surprising.

Further, you would of COURSE prefer to not notice that your child's need for food and clothing doesn't go away because it is now INCONVENIENT for you.


First of all Federal Law requires that regardless which of the Three methods of calculation a State uses, no more than 45%- 55% can be garnished from one's pay, dependant on if they are married to the child in question's parent, have more than one child by differnt parents, or have either of the aforementioned condition's plus a second non related family to support. Yet, States consistently violate these guidelines, often taking more than the extreme maximum allowed of 55% Overpayments are considered gifts and not calculated into current and backpay totals. It is a corrupt broken System.

As to what the kid needs. Quit with the touchy feel good statements already, everyone in their right minds knows and defends this.
The construction of Statutes Rules in the Federal and State Laws require that Laws be written to reflect specific facts and are not to include "touchy feel good statements and opinions" having nothing to do with the precise law and it's constructions. Law does not care about feelings, it is only concerned with hard facts. Since there is no law that says you must give a crap about the kid, let's not drag it into a legal debate.
What the Law does say, see 2001 WMC PL 104-96 ("Green Book" report) on Block grants for an Overview of the Existing Child Supoort Acts and Laws and Programs, and follow up editions for any changes. you will find, in the Green Book and related Acts and Laws and the CSE Handbook for parents that, Child Support is defined as "money given to the parent or Guardian of the Minor Child(ren). for their Support." Read the details you'll see that "their" directly refers to the Parent or Guardian with actual physical posession. The touchy feel good benefits of that are not Law nor are they required. There is no accounting of where or how this money actually goes to the kid or their support. I've seen CS money blown on the damndest things having nothing to do with the kids at all- more than you'd think.
That said, CSE and the States generate money in this manner, first, States have to pay Child Support checks out of the State's General Fund. So taxpayers, not the parents, pay for the children, despite these Laws being created to ease the burdens on the taxpayer's who were paying for these kids. Meanwhile the parents money goes into a State Trust fund and Earn 18% interest for 12 month's, after replenishing the taxpayer's General Fund from the the interest, keeping the rest in slush funds. The capital goes to the Fed's who put the money in their Trust fund at about 21% interest and dole it out to unnaccounted for funds after it's 12 month accumulation period. So parent's are paying the State and Fed. And it looks like they are reimbursing the Taxpayers, but, are they? No. The CS System forces parents who were or would pay for their children directly or inderectly anyways to pay through their Systems so they can claim higher successive rates of collection and enforcement. When in fact parents who weren't or later would not pay anyways, continued to not pay, taxpayers still have to fund their children, only now they have to pay to locate, monitor, incarcerate and expand their prisons and systems to hold these "deadbeats" anyways. Most of who refuse to pay ransom to see a child they would have otherwise paid for if they had a legitimate amount of interest granted to them in their child's life. Hard not to neglect someone you see more than a few times a month if at all. So the State's and Fed earn money off the interest called the "float" to do with as they please. taxpayers are reimbursed from the collected and invested capital, and the difference between what is collected and what is borrowed from the taxpayer to pay the CS checks to pay, not the child, but the parent or guardian's support, due to non CS paying parents is taken from the taxpayer further from other funds, while the interest earned goes to slush funds for demographics other than the Citizen's

Really. educate Yourself before you assume CS has anything to do with the Child other than by Title, relationship to the Payee or Obligor, and the supposed benefits and consequences they use to sell the public on CS which has nothing to do with it's true and legal operation.
What's more by definition Parent or Guardian support is by definition, additional spousal and maintainance support payments, which are geared for similiar effects, and are virtually the same thing, qualifying them as "double taxes" as they are payments for the exact same things- support of the ex. Applies only to divorcees and maybe those who are seperated. But, as for those who were never married, how can they legally be obligated to support their ex??? If it were legally money for support of the minor child(ren) and IRS trust laws required a full accounting at the child(ren's) 18th birthday or subject them to a lawsuit by the government and the child(ren). whereby, these touchy feel good concerns about the child could be ensured. Then, we'd have no debate. But, the laws being what they are. Please. They are oppression with a Capital "O."
Even if many parents subject to them think otherwise. Especially the recipients of the money, or those who pay it who are too naive to realize what they are really advocating.


[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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As your case relates to Child Support this may help. Edit it of course for the typoes, I suck at editing, myself. but, it should also give you some good ideas on where to start looking up the US Laws I spoke of earlier. What's more pass it around to anyone you can think of who needs it. Use it, have your lawyer use it, in fact, demand they do. I have used it in my own case with marked success. Remember, being unemployed at the moment, that you are not entitled to a lawyer for Custody, but you are entitled one for child support. Go to your legal services and get one. Demand DHHS arrange a Social Services Case Plan for you, as well, and jump through all their crazy hoops. Go in a clean slate and just let them program you as they will. And arrange for Anger Management, too. The bill for this will come to about $16,000. Oh well, you'll never be rid of debt anyways. remember, it's their world, Boss, you're just living in it. You may not be able to get Custody, but, you will show and prove your willingness to comply with your child's best interest's as they deem them to be, and what's more, you can effect a Visitation arrangement that border's on Joint Custody anyways, which is the desirable result of Joint custody anyways. And it's cheaper than Custody for you. Custody suit's begin at around $30,000 (payments around $1500/mo.) just to initiate one, much less the route it could take if experts and whatever get thrown in the mix.

It's not a cureall, but, it's a start worth considering.

The Forms are as follow:



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by PhyberDragon
 



UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
________________DISTRICT OF________________
AT______________________


____________________, )
)
Plaintiff, ) Case. No.
)
v. ) CIVIL COMPLAINT,
) SUIT IN EQUITY
____________________, )
) 42 U.S.C.S., � 1983
____________________, and )
) * JURY DEMAND
____________________, )
)
Defendant(s). )
___________________________)


1. INTRODUCTION



Plaintiff, ______________________________,brings this suit in equity

for deprivation of rights, privileges, and immunities secured by the

Constitution and laws of the United States.



2. JURISDICTION



This court has jurisdiction over this matter brought under 42

U.S.C.S., � 1983, pursuant to 28 U.S.C.S. � 1343(a)(3).

source


Mod Edit:IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS.Please review this link




[edit on 18-1-2009 by GAOTU789]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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The point is that, exasperating as your position may seem, there are other courses of violence which can be mounted. Violently pursuing your Rights in a Peaceable manner. And that would be a call to arms I, and others, would actively support and take part in.

and the Other Countries may find similiar Rights and Laws available to them.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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A final note worth considering. You can not be jailed for failure to pay Child Support or anything else, not even Taxes, as the 13th Amendment--not the missing 13th Amendment-- of the US Constitution as an UNABRIDGABLE LAW by any other Law, since you are not obligated to pay a debt you did not contract- especially to an ex you were never contracted to through marriage, and since you can not be compelled to work to pay a debt--whether as a freeman or enslaved to the penal system, and since you cannot be enslaved to the penal system, and what not, goes as follows:

Text
“ Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.



History
The first twelve amendments had been adopted within fifteen years of the Constitution’s creation and approval. The first ten (the Bill of Rights) were passed in 1791, the Eleventh Amendment in 1795 and the Twelfth Amendment in 1804. When the Thirteenth Amendment was proposed there had been no new amendments adopted in more than sixty years.



source
You are instead, jailed for failure to comply with a Court Order. That's it. I would argue the legality of being able to impose the Order for debt relief, much less, the extreme penalties for failure to Comply with the Court over that which they could not legally impose, so, had to resort to bypassing that fact by making it an issue of Compliance with the Court's Order as an Order only and not the basis or content of the Order. Law is tricky. As a Class we must educate ourselves and other's how to look past it's Snake Oil smile.

Mod Edit:IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS.Please review this link




[edit on 18-1-2009 by GAOTU789]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by PhyberDragon
 


They try to bypass the 13th amendment also by declaring any amount over $5000 is a felony and therefore a crime. But the amount is a debt and not subject to such a ridiculous claim.

in regards to psychological coersion, the Social Services imposes it's version of parenting skills on parents for whom CS applies, which means you subject yourself to their debatable psychiatric view of what is or is not a fit and proper parent- child relationship or visitation and rights can be refused. This is enforced by the threat and real act of physical coercion in that law enforcement can and will be used against you to force compliance with removal of the child from you or to ensure no contact requirements are met, what's more, jail and/ or prison is a very real physical enforcement, as well as, psychological component of CS and related Social Services aspects of CS Enforcement.

The rest is self explanatory and must be considered in context of each individual case, the laws in themselves are a form of black mail the payments for visitations and a basis of determining administrative custody, at least, are forms of ransom and false imprisonment of a minor (and the parent), and the revocation of passports, licenses, etc. are forms of revoking government issued documents. I could go on, but, I'd fill volumes. I hope I've "enlightened" you a little, so you see violence is not your only course of action, as of yet. Granted these violations are made worse if they result in death, think of the lawsuits as a Class Action all those kids have regarding parents that died in prison or during the course of these illegal actions taking place, or by suicide at their own hands over the real psychological effects of what Parens Patrae "Father of the Country" laws bring about. Let's not go that route if we don't have to, ok.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]

[edit on 18-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Cio88
reply to post by asmeone2
 


People like you throw the fuel on the fire to begin with. Its not your ignorance that makes me mad .. its your arrogance.



What, specifically, do you consider arrogance?

That I refuse to come to the OP's defense, since I only have his internet postings to know him by, and I haven't heard his ex's side of this or watched his marraige break down?

That I think the courts and his ex were justified in wanting to enforce a seppration between the OP and the child in question, at least for the time being, since he admits that he has threatened to shoot himself in order to manipulate his ex and attempted to kill himself as little as six months ago?

That given how common domestic murder/suicides have become, I think it would have been irrisponsible for the courts to not take this seriously, even if the OP never intended to follow through?

That I am opposed to some of these folks who want to go beyond father's "Rights" and demand that the courts take their words and requests verbatim, and ignore cases in which there are very real reasons that custody should be limited? These men claim they want the law to be applied fairly, but how is that any better than the same bias shown to the mothers, except it is the other gender that is favored?



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Asmeone2

Sorry my reply buttons not working. Basically she got the restraining order as a result of my threatening to kill myself. I was trying to give her a reality check and it backfired.


That is a horribly selfish thing to do.

First of all I think it is emotionally manipulative to say to someone "You do this or I will kill myself--" especially when there is a child involved in the mixture. Even if you didn't actually intend to do it, do you want your child growing up wondering if Dad is going to off himself?

Secondly, even if you didn't intend to do this, with the dramatic increase in murder/suicide cases I do not blame her for filing an order and the courts for granting it.


If you've never been in these types of situations you can't judge them, I went to a state Hospital because I expressed that it is my deepest desire to murder everyone involved in my case, it was a hyperbola to express my rage and said in a moment of psychological weakness, when I had no rational way to explain how angry the whole injustice of my particular case made me, a hyperbola which was lost on others who took it as a real intent, especially when I threw my hands up in futility and said I can understand why normal people resort to terrorism to get their outrage across to those who just don't seem to get it. I said if I weren't the better person I'd just blow up the damn courthose myself and be done with them all, well, it was off to the State sanitorium for me. It's not always that people say things because they are moral or proper, these cases have very real psychological affects on people who genuinely love their children (and deserve to raise them for that reason alone) that they express their inner desperation to give voice to such a deep sense of loss of self that we resort to outlandish outbursts in frustration, which as the Poster asserts, was lost on her as it backfired on him, then don't assume these things are meant from a selfish, think of who we'd leave behind point of view. It is not selfish to have emotions. It is only selfish if we act on them. Man can not judge man's heart or we'd all be guilty of something- that is for Diety's alone. Man can only judge man's action's. So, while I understand where the OP is coming from and what he is really trying to say with this suicide angle, an act I could never commit personally, but have expressed as a hyperbola type statement on occassion myself, people who are not similiarly situated should not judge as they, as usual, get it all twisted.
And Judges are no different, they do not generally do the fair and right thing. In fact their rules are so complicated that rather than have a normal discussion to get to the bottom of a thing, rules are so applied that it's damn near impossible to get at the heart of anything. There are volumes of stuff they won't even look at or listen to if you don't file the right papers or ask in the right way or do at the right time or present in the proper venue, what's more are the volumes of for and against (concurrent case jurisdiction plans) and tons of other stuff which go on behind the scenes which you rarely if ever are informed about, much less are allowed access to or allowed to challenge which are used for or against you as they see fit. I mean, when's the last time you've read or even heard of a Judge's Case Data Sheet or anything else they use. Judges are fair and impartial my rear.
unless you've been there, don't be a Judge too.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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I will make you a deal. I'll stop pretending to know what it feels like to be in a position where you would rather kill yourself and everyone who is irritating you if you stop pretending that you know the absolute fear that comes from being in a situation where someone has said they will kill themselves in order to get you to "behave," and never knowing whether that suicide will blossom to include you too.

Whatever someone makes you feel like doing, they are not there puppeting your every move, forcing you to make threats or attempt to harm yourself. Why do that, especially when one is in the middle of trying to prove that he is a stable person, and presumably fending off abuse or mental instability accusations?



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by 12.21.12
 


As I said, it sounds like cause and effect, the courts take violent threats seriously, especially if you admit to making them.


Actually Post Partum Depression is a psychological mindset that leads to some negative consequences, mothers drowning their babies, suffocating them, throwing them in dumpsters, etc. Women in jail are found to be more violent than men. And what he describes as to her brazen domestic violence toward him is more common than is reported, as men are usually ostracised, and sometimes ridiculed for doing so, yet, we are the ones with issues that the judge consider's.
Consider this, taking in good faith, and pretending this guy's under oath, therefore having no cause to doubt him. I hear a common, way common story. A man has a child by a woman who assaults him and isolates herself and the child from him, she win's the footrace to the CS office as per paternity time line requirement advantages built into the system. He works hard, pays his debt, and refrains from returning the assault. She withholds the child from him, and a No Contact type restraining order is issued, which doesn't penalize any percieved threat for which there are already existing laws in effect to deal with, no this is not a duplicate law, it is a law specifically denying custody based on hearsay requiring little to no evidence at all. The restriction, limits your access to the child that by the time you could file for Custody, she has already won the time requirements for actual physical residence of the child which is a prime requisite of the decision, you are already made to appear the agressor which is another prime requisite consideration, and if you are jailed you are unable to make support payments and may lose your job, which is a third prime requisite considered. Thus, overall ensuring Custody will favor the Status quo. And he, the male, as the typical recipient of the larger pay will not only be deprived of a healthy relationship with your child and will be forced into the money making machine of CS until his child is 18. Knowing all this, and still not able to just kill these creeps, he is drawn into himself and made to feel impotent as a man and less than human, especially, as Society paints him into this box of being some kind of loser. Then if he turns to Society for, at the very least, confirmation that he's not wrong about being wronged, he is further debased by strangers. He threatens to kill himself out of leverage, maybe, desperate for anything and everything that might help him, but, also because he like I am stunned that he has not done so already, despite knowing how wrong it is, whether he meant it or not, deep down he thought it so yes he meant it- and drunk only removed his inhibitions against saying so. Selfish. Who? Him? Or the System.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by 12.21.12
reply to post by asmeone2
 


What I mean is that this is my daily hell. I am not one of those dads that split. I am the one who said I want you to have that child and I will be there for you no matter what.

Basically, I was dating the mom who lived next to me, we were in a relationship. Though not for very long. I had split up with her because she went and slept with her ex. Two weeks later she told me she was pregnant and I was the dad. Taht is when I told her that she had my support 100%. Then I found out that one of her stupid friends that doesn't even know me was calling me an asshole cause I didn't tell my parents about it yet. Then went as far as telling her to start filing for child support. She was not even two months pregnant and I had just moved in with her so we could start saving. Somewhere along the lines I said something about paternity.

She started threatening to kick me out. She took all of my things pregnant, I am talking heavy furniture and start moving them all into the spare bedroom while I was sleeping with music blaring at 8 am while I was trying to sleep. I couldn't touch her or even try to stop her because she would have called the cops and had me arrested.

That wasn't enough. She then took all the food and microwave in the household and moved it into her room and bought a lock for the door. She even locked my cat in there so I called the cops and asked if I could kick the door down and they said no. I was verbally and physically abused for several months before I was able to move out and there was not a damn thing I could do about it.

So instead of letting me do a paternity test after the child was born. She told me I needed a court order. Then she took her ex down instead and had paternity done. After confirmation that he was not the dad she went directly to child support and filed.. I was in the child support office filling out financial paperwork before I was even allowed to verify paternity and the rest is history. The court system has had me by the balls ever since.


You can get a paternity test ordered dude, and if it turns out that you're not the Dad, she will be in BIG trouble. You can take her to court and sue the pants off of her. She may even do jail time for fraud. My girlfriend's sister's man just went through the same thing with his son and ex-wife. His son was conceived around the time he found out she was cheating on him. He got a lawyer and the lawyer told him that if he was not the father, then he could run her through the mill for criminal fraud or something like that because she'd been making him pay child support for a kid that wasn't even his. It turned out that he was the Dad, so it didn't happen. But the point is, you DO have options. Don't give up, and take another poster's advice, put on the Perfect Angel suit, and document every argument or bad thing that she says and does. Do NO wrong, and let her dig her own grave. That is what my brother is doing right now with his ex-wife. She's a tyrant, and he got screwed while she got everything. She's abusive to the kids, and little things here are there keep coming to light, all from the kids' mouths, and my brother is documenting every bit of it, all the while keeping his mouth shut about her and her lover in front of the kids. Once he has enough, he's getting a lawyer, taking her to court, and getting his kids back.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by PhyberDragon
 


As I've said I refuse to judge who is right/wrong in a case where I know neither participants--although I have stated my opinions on what the OP has admitted to doing.

I can say though that if I were a man, I would have enough sense to leave a woman who was physically abusing me. Forget having a child with her. I will not stay with someone who does not have enough basic respect not to hit me.

As for the woman you refer to who are in jail for PPD, they are... wait for it... in jail, not off the hook because someone forced them into their actions.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by 12.21.12
reply to post by asmeone2
 


What I mean is that this is my daily hell. I am not one of those dads that split. I am the one who said I want you to have that child and I will be there for you no matter what.

Basically, I was dating the mom who lived next to me, we were in a relationship. Though not for very long. I had split up with her because she went and slept with her ex. Two weeks later she told me she was pregnant and I was the dad. Taht is when I told her that she had my support 100%. Then I found out that one of her stupid friends that doesn't even know me was calling me an asshole cause I didn't tell my parents about it yet. Then went as far as telling her to start filing for child support. She was not even two months pregnant and I had just moved in with her so we could start saving. Somewhere along the lines I said something about paternity.

She started threatening to kick me out. She took all of my things pregnant, I am talking heavy furniture and start moving them all into the spare bedroom while I was sleeping with music blaring at 8 am while I was trying to sleep. I couldn't touch her or even try to stop her because she would have called the cops and had me arrested.

That wasn't enough. She then took all the food and microwave in the household and moved it into her room and bought a lock for the door. She even locked my cat in there so I called the cops and asked if I could kick the door down and they said no. I was verbally and physically abused for several months before I was able to move out and there was not a damn thing I could do about it.

So instead of letting me do a paternity test after the child was born. She told me I needed a court order. Then she took her ex down instead and had paternity done. After confirmation that he was not the dad she went directly to child support and filed.. I was in the child support office filling out financial paperwork before I was even allowed to verify paternity and the rest is history. The court system has had me by the balls ever since.


Ok. So i only got to the 2nd page of the thread and read this. Im so sorry so had to go through that. Details aside I went through about the same. I actually just got done wrighting a letter to my lawyer about my ex missing my boys doc. appt. It seems like I wright my lawyer everyday. EVERYTHING must be in wrighting. I just found out i get no custondy. But i do have placement after 10 months of fighing for it. I could rant forever about her terrible perental decisions and my compatance and unconditional dedication to my son but long story short she does not deserve custody. Or to be a part of his life for that matter. This may seem like a harsh thing to say but it took a long time of hard thought to come to that conclusion and I and 100% sure of it. I have been screwed over by the system for a year and a half now and there is seemingly nothing to be done about it. Dealing with this has opened my eyes more than ever to the corruption of the leagal system. I truely believe it is a grand scheme to ruin family values. I have to run but ill be more active in this post soon. We have to wage war on this problem and i am fully ready to do whatever it takes. I, like you am finished dealing with this. Thank you OP for this post. I was on my way to do the same but frankly i am exhaused from fighing to see my son.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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oops double post

sorry!

[edit on 18-1-2009 by eyeforalie]



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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I would like to add that i started the paternity suit and sued her for full custody. I have no record and she does. I have not made any mistake throughout all of this and the system is bias. Point blank. For example, the gardian ad lightum (my sons lawyer), when she made her decision for the court said that i was unable to communicate in a journal we have to exchange because of a unsubstanicated restraing order. She stated this and sent out her recomendation 3 hours befor she recieved the journal. I have communicated quite plesently.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Oreyeon
put on the Perfect Angel suit, and document every argument or bad thing that she says and does. Do NO wrong, and let her dig her own grave. That is what my brother is doing right now with his ex-wife. She's a tyrant, and he got screwed while she got everything. She's abusive to the kids, and little things here are there keep coming to light, all from the kids' mouths, and my brother is documenting every bit of it, all the while keeping his mouth shut about her and her lover in front of the kids. Once he has enough, he's getting a lawyer, taking her to court, and getting his kids back.


Good luck with that. It really doesnt matter. I have a 300 page notebook of documented crazynees on her part. The bill i got form the GAL said that it took her a half hour to read it, and it showed. Like i said. Bias. Something bigger has to happen. Im thinking a class action lawsuit.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by PhyberDragon
 


YES. You are 100% correct. You summed up my last year pretty well. I am a motivated person but honestly I wish for death often.



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