God's Flaw - Determinism

This is God's flaw

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"Nothing that exists has true control over itself!

I propose that freewill is nothing more than an illusion and wishful thinking.

Life is nothing more than a logical, linear, predictable, machine. The belief that I have determination over the person I am and the person I will become is fraudulent.

Dominic Shillingford, the name to which I identify with more than anything that exists is not mine, it was given to me, like so much, it is purely an inheritance but I am obliged to take ownership of it.




As with my name I have inherited all that is the product of my genetics. My skin colour, my height, my gender, the colour of my eyes, the shape of my nose, the tone of my voice, the way I walk, the hand I write with, are not of my choosing but is simply an inheritance. It has all been woven into me from conception, revealing itself more and more each day. Everything people see when they look at me is not of my own volition; everything I exist as in the physical world is nothing more than an inheritance. My inevitable procession to mimic the mannerisms and appearance of my dad grow stronger and stronger each day, as he also did with his dad.

I received the adulation for running quickly. Did I control how fast I was able to run. I simply try harder than everyone else. The characteristic of running quickly like every other physical characteristic, can only be derived from my genetics. Should I have been intrinsically rewarded for having fast parents? What is the greater cause of my victory, me, or my cumulative procession of athletic ancestors?

All human beings with our joint genealogy display shared behaviour. We jointly display precise facial expression to specific stimuli not because we choose to, but because we are all compelled to. We are programmed to use language, to understand our environment, to advance.

All life is internally governed to survive, to avoid hunger, to avoid death, to procreate, not through our choosing but through the advisement of our collective design. We cannot escape our doctrine. A sheep does not choose to follow, a bird does not choose to migrate, a dog does not choose to retrieve a stick. We are nothing more than animals, our intelligence does not elevate us above this tenet but only serves to demonstrate our status within it. We do not choose to create weapons, to appreciate music, to be wary of difference, to seek understanding, to attain happiness or to be aroused by beauty, they are innate within us. We are programmed to behave in the way we do, it is not a choice, it is merely the translation of our design.

I can be nothing more than the genetics I inherited or the product of my experience. That wonderful discussion, nature versus nurture excludes me. I am no more in control of my genetic make-up as I am of the world to which I have been nurtured. I simply respond as Dominic Shillingford responds.

My genetic code is indelibly intertwined with my experiences, how I was brought up by my parents, entertained by the media, treated by my siblings, taught by my schools, interacted with my friends and enveloped within my society. The language and accent I speak with, my view of the world and my place within it, my morality, my happiness, my intelligence, my confidence are all irrefutably fused with everything that exists outside of my own psyche. The genetics that prescribe the colour of my eyes also prescribes the exact way I will react and respond to every moment of my existence. It is this accumulation of responses to my environment that formulates the person I am and the personality I am identified by.




I am no more than a car is, or any piece of technology. As a car I am not independent, my specification has been the creation of designers, defining how I look and how I behave, I am driven, controlled by a driver. If the steering wheel is turned anticlockwise, as a result of my design I have no choice but to turn left, if a brake is pushed I am obliged through my design to carry out the order to restrict my wheels. Every stimulus I experience in the real world, applied by my environment translates through my design and produces the prescribed, and my only possible response, obeying exactly as a mechanical object would. If the car were given consciousness surely even it would understand that it was merely responding to external stimuli and not affecting them itself."

This is God's flaw
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[edit on 16-1-2009 by Daniem]

Freewill cannot exist. This is the flaw in God's plan. This is a philosophical film that calls into question the true level of control any individual has over themselves. I suggest absolutely none.

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[edit on 16-1-2009 by Daniem]

You are not depressed are you?

You can either top yourself or not, you CAN make choices in life.
Get out there and smell the roses, take a hike in the wilderness and see all the good things that are here for your enjoyment.
Every day we have to make choices and you do have control of your life. That is the main thing, not what colour we are or how we each have different personalities.

We only have one life and you ARE in control.

reply to post by Daniem


If you believe in a God like Albert Einstein in that the God of the Universe created us and told us to be fruitful and multiply, then let us alone to be what we want to be. He is a God of noninterference. Then when we did, he would judge us on our actions. He believe this because if he had the God with his plan and had things planned out for you, then how could you be accountable for you actions when judged in Heaven, for they were the actions preplanned out for you by God. That is why God has to be a God of noninterference,

This satement is made by a person who does not want to change and justifies it by saying his genetics rule who he is. Your destiny is what you choose either by action or inaction your choice. To say other wise means a child abuser can not change or an alcholic is doomed to forever drink. While facts prove this is not so that people do change when they decide to.

i can but concur, we are all just puppets dancing to chaos's whim.

we can though make some choices of our own, a good friend of my used to say 'you can either laugh or cry about it' and in truth thats all it comes down to.

In the end we will all die, some how -weather on earth eaten by the sun, in space chilled by slow atrophy or in heaven immortal but board, all things done and seen and said we one by one stop thinking and everything already black and empty is now quiet and unwatched.

we can never change the fact that everything is pointless, all we can change is weather we spent our time smiling or frowning.

ok, so we can change weather our life is short or long, if we die with our hands on our heads or holding a gun, if we make the world better or SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE.

oh and god has more than one fault -if everything needs a creator then who created the creator- being my fave. oh and -if god made everything he made the devil and all evil, either a mistake or god loves rock and roll-

[edit on 16-1-2009 by NatureBoy]

reply to post by Daniem


Holy Cow...

You made a half hearted attempt at philosphical writing and ended up simply sounding like a coffe shop intellectual.

"I am a car."

You hand over all reponsibility for your life and actions. That is pathetic and completely unfounded in reality.

2 Thoughts...Your parents, education, frirends and society all make you you. Who made them? And then who made them and so on? It sounds like no one is responsible for themselves.

That leads to all deviant behavior being absolved.

Second. This entire line of thought has been tried well before your weak intellectualsim here. And failed.

John Calvin formed an entire relgion based on your line of thought.

By intself, without any undue influence it died out.

Humanity seems to be doing quite fine. 6 billion and going strong.

reply to post by crmanager


your crass narcissistic nonsence aside, he made some good points and this is a place for debate not insults.

if you have some valid input then i would love to hear it, why don't you tell us about Calvins theorys on the subject and the flaws in them? do try to be polite though.

edit: immature post

[edit on 16-1-2009 by juveous]

reply to post by Daniem


You assume that everything you "inherited" was completely out of your control. Had the thought ever occurred that you chose what you inherited before you were born?

In my opinion consciousness isn't the result of a brain, it's the other way around. Who we are might be more accurately described as the electrical impulses in the brain, not the brain itself. Electricity = energy, and energy can only be transformed, not created or destroyed. So if we're infinite, well that opens up a new branch of thought right there.

As I understand the nature of time, both fate and free will exist. Even god can't predict the future, except the future which already exists. The things which don't exist yet are up to us.

To explain the existence of a God I have come to the conclusion that It is all that is, has, and ever will be. It is consciousness of all and is all. It is an eye with nothing to see, except Its own creation inside Its own mind(not literally). And we the created, are the effect of God's will for us to exist. And every effect is also the cause of other effects. And I would say that God was the cause of all this, but now I come to the conclusion that there was no first cause, just perpetual causes and effects, because for there to be a first cause there would have to be some reason/cause for it and the ball keeps rolling. So it goes to reason that we are all creators and observers. And it also goes to reason that everything happens for a purpose. And as for free will, we are controlled by the law of cause and effect. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, or so we think.

reply to post by Daniem

Another determinism thread here we go

IMO to sum up my understanding - Determinism only exist in retrospect.

IT is easier to look to our past to see that there could not have been another outcome simply because it has already been observed.

Determinism is an illusion as free-will is. To say determinism is true is to prove the future can be determined, as long as we know every parameter in the chain of causality. But aha, our direct belief, MUST be counted in the chain of causality. We believe we have the ability to choose what we believe based of inference.

calling this God's flaw, is only implying free-will does not exist, thus we do not choose whether or not to worship/believe God, but simply following his forth-knowing Design.

Free-will actually has all the evidence it needs - unpredictability.
So many say free-will is simply illusion because they can't help to make their observation after the fact.

Every conscious anything, that has the ability to choose, has free-will. But when looking for the reason of "why the specific choice" we come up with an answer in the chain of causality.

absolute paradox.

interesting point raised, what if we chose our life before we were born.

what if instead of random events forcing us into acting we force random events into happening, maybe things only happen around us because we think certain thoughts, our mind is the central nexus for events and all things that happen around us are the results of our thoughts.

life is as scientists now say a giant 3d illusion, maybe we are the center of the illusion, maybe every one is a part of the same mind and that mind is daydreaming a world full of people. Maybe out of bordom and curiosity our central mind created everyone and everything and it wondered what it would be like if he had a physical body, if he lived in a green field with flowers and fruit then he made a woman, etc, etc, etc

if we are but his curious mind wondering what would happen if personx lives like this and talks to persony, what if personx knows he is a person, etc. At some point his day dream people would have a complex enough intelligence to start wondering what life means - while the complexity of the dream increases sections of it would have real intelligencem real 'i think therefor i am' kind of brain power - thus we came to be here questioning where we came from.

the reason our world is so crazy could be because we created it as a day dream, the great collective supercomputer brain. Maybe rather than everything in life forcing us to act we force everything in life to act.

reply to post by Daniem


The Creator's only flaw was an angel called Lucifer.

reply to post by Daniem



Beautiful

This is the cluclusion I reached a long time ago.
Althought in your explanation you could focus not only on genetics and environment but also on low level physics.

It's all deterministics

HHAHAHAHAH

Determinism IS GOD.

Doesnt it just make so much more sense now...... that causality... determinism has so much information to share with you, but how many are really looking? Do you have faith? lol

Its an equation... a design.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by crmanager

Holy Cow...

You made a half hearted attempt at philosphical writing and ended up simply sounding like a coffe shop intellectual.

"I am a car."

Alright people, here we have an individual who thinks that by simply uttering: "THIS IS STUPID" makes it true. I applaud your geniality.


Well, you can take your little red car and drive off.. come back when you have SOMETHING to contribute.. something with a little more substance than an insult, a line from the video and patronizing tone.


Im sure you boosted your ego to new fantastic heights by showing off what you percieve as intelligence by downgrading me.

What if i told you that you unknowningly try to balance your mood and feelings by reacting to the people around you. If you are feeling unintelligent or trying to hold onto a feeling of dominant intelligence you will bring others down. This makes you feel good.

You hand over all reponsibility for your life and actions. That is pathetic and completely unfounded in reality.

2 Thoughts...Your parents, education, frirends and society all make you you. Who made them? And then who made them and so on? It sounds like no one is responsible for themselves.

That leads to all deviant behavior being absolved.

1) Please give me a specific example of a part of your "mind" that you have complete control of.


2) I definatly hold people responsable. You can't hold someone responsible unless his actions were determined by something.

How can you blame someone for performing an action that just spontaneously popped into his nervous system?

You need to show how the action stemmed from the person's desires and preferences — the person's character — before you start holding the person morally responsible.

Small systems aren't 100% predictable. You can't say something like people are predictable because the chemical reactions that guide them are predictable. They're not becuase they're subject to minute changes that cause large changes over time.

Originally posted by EriktheRed9
reply to post by Daniem

 

The Creator's only flaw was an angel called Lucifer.

The Angel of Light?
The Savior of Man?
Whom God punished and sent to Earth to live as a man?
THAT Lucifer?...Archangel Lucifer...

THAT Lucifer SAVED MANKIND from God when God went to destroy all of man...this, after he (God and his Angels) wiped out all the "Giants" and their Patron "Diety Angels" whom fought against God.

Lucifer was punished by God for having 'saved' man from God's wrath.

Lucifer was NOT the ArchAngel who led the Angels to Earth to breed with man.

To subscribe to "pre-determinism"

is to

subscribe to the "Pool of Life" theory.

Meaning, there are billions of souls 'waiting to be born'

and

everything in life is set by God.

Well....all I can say is

HAHAHAHAHAHAA.
Xistians are worse than Xethists.