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Why are there so many Masons on ATS?

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posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by mister.old.school
1 - there are rogue masons who improperly interpret the ideals of their brotherhood
2 - the existence of rogue masons does not mean Freemasonry is an evil society

The extremist mason-defenders seem unable to tolerate #1.

The extremist conspiracy theorist also seem unable to tolerate #2.

And between the two, few shall meet.
Concisely put. And to be honest, I don't think any Mason here would dispute #1. What we take issue with is the implication of scope or that such rogues are somehow controlling the rest of us without our knowledge.

In general, the anti-Masons who post here fall into one of two camps (or sometimes both):
1 - Religious zealots who believe that unless you are explicitly praying to THEIR god, you are doomed to hell.
2 - People who claim that ALL secrecy is repugnant and call for transparency.

Occasionally you'll also get the staunch atheist who mocks any spiritual content in Masonry, inherent or implied. Call that 1b if you will.

Sure, there are people here claiming Masons are EVIL. They might fall into category 1. Sometimes they'll preface it with MASONRY IS EVIL but the clueless masses are probably alright guys. These might be from category 2.

[edit on 1/19/2009 by JoshNorton]




posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by trueforger
Thanks for the reply.So you said "hele" means "many things",you have reiterated the one that is typically found.And embellished with a misnomer,confusing the dog command,"Heel" with the Masonic code word,"HELE".Why not add,"Heal" as well?

Okay. Heal: to restore, repair, to set right. There is no HELE, it's just Hele; to hide.


Originally posted by trueforger
Do you make other oaths the words of which are so obscure there is controversy even among the insiders as to pronounciation?

When I went through, if I had a question I asked and someone had the answer. I even looked up stuff later on in books and on the Internet.

I know what a Lewis Mason is. A few of the men in my Lodge are Lewis Masons. One, if this Mason is saying stuff to you after drinking he should be kicked from the Freemasons for even putting himself in that situation and talking.

I will look up this Keith Oberman report on Bush.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by KSigMason]



posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
But how exactly does this relate to the post of yours that I commented on unless you're asserting that I am in league with LLM, Trinityman, Augustus et al to at every turn thwart investigation of Freemasonry?


I do not think any of us would want an investigation thwarted, if there were any wrongdoing being perpetrated by my lodge (or any other) I would want it exposed and dealt with accordingly.

Plus, you drink too much for me to make any serious plans with you....



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by mister.old.school
 


Indeed.

The issue from my perspective is not that freemasons are all "pure and just" and a bunch of goodie two-shoes, but that there is an unhealthy focus on the negative without any balance. While it may be true that some freemasons are bad people, there is no evidence one way or the other to suggest that freemasonry attracts bad people or that there are more bad people in freemasonry than you might expect to find in a control group. In fact since freemasonry explicitly seeks men of good character and teaches morality lessons as one of its core activities it is self-evident IMO that there would be fewer.


(*) the ultra-secrecy of past centuries tended to breed individual masons of ill-repute

I don't agree. Secrecy only creates an unknown from the outside. In fact a huge amount is now known about freemasonry and what is actually gotten up to behind closed doors. There's no evidence to suggest the "secrecy" tends to breed men of ill-repute at all - in fact the reverse is true when you look at a historic list of known freemasons and judge their achievements. Compare that with the microscopically small list of known freemasons who have acted poorly (Benedict Arnold could be on both lists
)


(*)some masonic ideals have been subjugated and twisted for wrong-doing

I think you have phrased this poorly. It reads like you are saying "masonic ideals have been corrupted by freemasonry" but I suspect you mean "some individual freemasons have taken advantage of their membership". Could you clarify?

This site breeds polarization by its very nature, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as we can all keep some form of perspective. I am primarily here on ATS to correct misinformation and misunderstandings about freemasonry - an apparently never-ending job




[edit on 1/20/09 by Trinityman]



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by trueforger
 


there is one problem with your idea of the way hele or heel is spelled. It is stictly forbidden to write or in any way engrave any of the sectrets of masonry of which this would fall into. So if it was ever written down, it was done so by breaking the rules so to speak. If in fact it is written that way, do you have a link to such writing?



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Razimus
 


I can answer you.Please go to Amazon and look up"The Key to Solomon's Key"by Lon Duquette. Then read all of the comments and reviews. I went ahead and bout it and I regret it. I have been around grimoires before, but this was frightening as it leads folks to believe it is all okay with no ugly side effects. One reviewer, I don't remember is degree, said he was thrilled that those who read it would not think of is kind as silly parade clowns or pompous philanthropists any longer.



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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Well I looked up Hele in the OED and there were two interesting etymological aspects to this word.The first is a covering of a roof by tiles.Perhaps the origin of the drawn sword guard's being called a Tyler?Always wondered about the origin of that appelation.The other,more to the point,factoid is that the word hele was used by sowers of seed to describe the planting practice of dropping the seed in a hole and covering with dirt by the boot heel.There are arcane aspects to all things Masonic,including,colors,materials and light effects.The dirt,for instance would be manure fortified soil,dark brown and light blocking.Then there is the aspect of having a boot heel atop the seed.So this hele-ing might clearly stand for obscuring the illumination with B.S. and having yer boot heel atop the little one.Sounds like disinformation,for the Good of course.After all the seed won't sprout if it is not covered with soil and it won't thrive if the soil is not manure filled.Likewise the light may be blocked,but the warmth does penetrate to trigger sprouting.I looked online to determine how extensive the cross memberships were between Masonry and Skull&Bones and was blown awayby how many references there are,really too many to list or overlook.And now I will say something good about busH:He's gone!



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Razimus
This is a genuine curiosity, I've noticed in the avatars a large ammount of members have the square, g & compass symbol, I've met probably 4 or 5 masons that I know of, and I attended a funeral for a mason who had a lot of masonic friends, they are nice people, but the ones I met weren't interested in UFOs or any topics on here which is why I'm surprised.

Is this because the freemasons on here are younger? Is it common for younger people to join the masons? I always saw it as something for older people, but maybe that's due to the older members I met.

Also what's the g in the symbol stand for, is it god or sacred geometry or something? thanks.


Sorry I know I know I'm many pages behind the ball game. However, I'd like to post a reply to the original post relating to my own "personal views.

1.) You have no idea what the friends of the deceased brother were interested in. Masons keep better secrets then just their interests. Likely I think, masonic or not, most people would be surprised just who all in here have these interests, and from how many diverse backgrounds they come. Some of us many not have "i believe" posters on our walls, and or ufo bumper stickers etc, but you know the "i know" poster wouldn't be as catchy anyway. Some people don't beleive in shouting from the roof tops their interests, and or views many have learned this leads to many bad things in one's life, and there's alot to be said for a a low profile. Scar tissue from experience develops a silent tongue in some.

2.) Consider the people interested in Above Top Secret topics, and the sorts of people interested in Freemasonry.

a.) Both usually have a more then passing interest in intellectual topics....the brain dead slaves to comercialism are not as big into UFO's, religion, spirituality, history, social dynamics, quantum physics, politics or what have you.......both of these groups are dipping into the same IQ pool.

b.) Masonry at it's very heart has for hundreds of years been a place one could go and speak of the things in ones heart, that one would never dare speak at work, in the neighborhood, or at church, for fear of being called a "kook". It was from it's inception the first place before blogs, internet or even news groups (yikes yes there was a time before forums posts and flame wars!.......well maybe not flame wars.) where people could discuss all sorts of topics and feel safe that they might not be "outed" as heretics or enemies of the King.

Masonry's lessons are all based on the ideal that mankind has for thousands of years been passing certain "truth"'s from generation to generation, hiding it when they had to to avoid persecution, but above all keeping "truth" alive, and providing a safe place for it's discussion. Remember even truths you take for granted today like the world is round, could have got you burned at one point and time. Freedom of thought, and protection of truth against those that would stamp it out for selfish gain are intrical parts of masonic philosophy.

c.)Masons in General all beleive in God.....in that reguard we all beleive in the mystical, we are not bound to ideas of "oh that's impossible". Most masons tend to have opens minds, in terms of super natural and para normal. After all we all beleive in an unseen creator, we all bend our knee before God.

d.) Masons are some what trained in masonry to look for double meanings, to see symbols as more then just random. To learn through intuition as well as logic. Consider the tantric buddhist meditation posters, and then consider many of the graphics in Masonry. Different philosophies to be sure, but same teaching method. This means I think masons tend to be more keen then many on seeing deeper meanings both in symbol, but in action and words, seeing through deception. The same sort of views expressed by many non masons who also tend to see deeper wheels at work behind the scenes....it's a similar thought process.....albeit one i feel without discipline for many.

e.) Masons have at times in the past most notably in the 1700's been forces for change.....especially against tyranny of a corrupt church, and authortarian govt. From it's beginning Masonry has been a bulwark against the status quo.....the problem is today the rebellion against "everything" or at least as directed by "media" IS the new status quo..

The same sort of people who are interested in these topics tend to be the same sort of people who find a home in masonry.....with one important difference......

3.) It's been noticed by more then a few people.....the same sort of people who end up as criminals, often also are the people who end up becoming cops. This has badly been used to try and paint police as thugs I think. They both tend to be adrenaline rush types, who love the thrill as much as any personal gain. The difference I would argue is their morals......the difference is virtue. One path is selfish, the other is virtue.

Masons beleive it's not enough to simply "see" teh truth but to also "see" with a moral anchor. To know what to do with truth.

I am not saying conspiracy theorists lack virtue, some do, andsome don't. But what makes people masons, is a desire for self cultivation to be a "better" man, to humbily recognize we are all short of perfection, but not to bask in our inadiquacy as victims but rather attempt to improve upon it.

Think about Benjamin Franklin. Investigating lightning experiments!, history, philosophy, geography, economics, sciences, social comentary. A strong curious and intellectual mind, the perfect example of the "renaissance man". Is there any doubt today he'd be fascinated from everything from ham radios to quantum physics?

Remember appearances can be decieving. I know more then a few of our elder brothers who look like a twin of Clint Eastwoods "Walt Kowalski"...stoggy old coots....who grumble at all they see around them and the decadence of their neighborhoods. Yet you get these men among brothers they know they can trust. They can tell you stories you'd never expect.. Places they've been, things they've seen, and the rumors most people don't bring up in daily conversation. Because they can TRUST a brother.

Anyone who is surprised there would be so many masons here........have no clue what masonry is, and has always been....and might be just a bit surprised at the interests of those old guys in funny hats.

[edit on 23/1/2009 by ForkandSpoon]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 07:56 AM
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So my challenge to Masons to speak truth/ill of ex-POTUS has gone unanswered.Thus making clear to any and all that they can't or won't.The excuse that,"We're military and are forbidden to say anything bad about our commander and,etc..." has passed with his departure.Been a week+.It certainly doesn't cover ex-POTUS as witnessed by the endless Clinton bashing,before that Carter. Go on,say it...How about,"WORST PRESIDENT EVER"?



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by trueforger
So my challenge to Masons to speak truth/ill of ex-POTUS has gone unanswered.Thus making clear to any and all that they can't or won't.The excuse that,"We're military and are forbidden to say anything bad about our commander and,etc..." has passed with his departure.Been a week+.It certainly doesn't cover ex-POTUS as witnessed by the endless Clinton bashing,before that Carter. Go on,say it...How about,"WORST PRESIDENT EVER"?
What a load of crap. This isn't a political forum, but you're begging American Masons to bash Bush? Ok. Here goes. Bush is an idiot. Was and idiot, likely always will be an idiot. He's also a war criminal and deserves all the penalties that go along with such. (He should be tried, found guilty and probably be hung on the same scaffolds as Saddam Hussein for the lies and atrocities he's committed against both the American people and the people of the world.

That harsh enough for you?

JoshNorton. Master Mason, 32° Scottish Rite Mason. From Texas.

Edit to add "WORST PRESIDENT EVER" just to make you happy.

Now, since I've fallen for your trolling, what has that accomplished? Were you under some notion that all Masons were Republican? Did you think we're all mindless sheep that unquestioningly obey secret orders from the Oval Office? What have you gained by getting a Mason to talk about about an ex-President (perhaps even making treasonous remarks in the eyes of some)?

[edit on 1/26/2009 by JoshNorton]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 

Thank you Brother Norton.I was showing that the connection between Masonry and Skull&Bones was more than just the shared ghastly symbolism of the skull(of Geronimo?) and thigh bones arranged in a specific form,etc.
BTW the treason is in the false flag based war and that complicity is assigned to those who aid and abet by action or inaction,allowing its continuance.
There is still a mountain of purported evidence to back up my contention,if you google it you'll see more than enough to make your head spin.
The point is whether or not the image of a bunch of guys in fezzes and aprons is more than a self improvement club's front,hiding sinister motive and obscuring that by a bunch of Masons here on ATS.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by trueforger

Thank you Brother Norton.I was showing that the connection between Masonry and Skull&Bones was more than just the shared ghastly symbolism of the skull(of Geronimo?) and thigh bones arranged in a specific form,etc.


What sort of connection do you contend exists between Freemasonry and the Skull and Bones Society?



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
What sort of connection do you contend exists between Freemasonry and the Skull and Bones Society?


And, for that matter, why should non-U.S. Masons care about George Bush? And why would the opinions of non-U.S. Masons on that topic be relevant on an international forum about Secret Societies?

And just so you don't make the same mistake that many others have, I'm not from the States and my avatar is indicative of nothing more than a particular amusement with the image.

If I really cared about Bush, I'd offer-up an opinion.

But I don't, so I shan't.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon


And just so you don't make the same mistake that many others have, I'm not from the States and my avatar is indicative of nothing more than a particular amusement with the image.



That's good to know. I always thought that was you!




posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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And here I thought Fitz's avatar displays a British soldier. Must've been the teeth.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 

The same sort of connection that I have seen time and again between Brother Masons in the business world,a friendly affable insider dealing mode of fleecing the rest of us,only writ large.Mutual overlooking of unethical behavior covered by a code of silence and inability to speak up when a Brother is involved which really equals complicity.Keeping the kernel of truth in the dark,covered over with manure and under the boot heel."Hele"I mean why the drawn sword wielded by the Tyler if it were just funny arcane meaning-of-life drama plays?Not a ritual sword either,but a real blade,not sharp as a machete but pointy.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

You ought to have cared while these guys,cheneY and his busH did their worst to ruin the economy of the US and since we are the largest in the world,effecting you and yours wherever you live.I was casting about to see IF y'all even could speak up since they weren't commander in chiefs anymore.You didn't speak up when you could have to stop this,now it's probably too late,so it was just an excercise.And a weak brew it got,too.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by trueforger

The same sort of connection that I have seen time and again between Brother Masons in the business world,a friendly affable insider dealing mode of fleecing the rest of us,only writ large.Mutual overlooking of unethical behavior covered by a code of silence and inability to speak up when a Brother is involved which really equals complicity.Keeping the kernel of truth in the dark,covered over with manure and under the boot heel.


This is a common claim around here, but in all my years in Masonry, I've never seen it. To begin with, the percentage of Masons who are businessmen is very small, and those that are businessmen generally aren't active members anyway.


"Hele"I mean why the drawn sword wielded by the Tyler if it were just funny arcane meaning-of-life drama plays?Not a ritual sword either,but a real blade,not sharp as a machete but pointy.


The Tyler is invested with a ceremonial sword. It *is* ritualistic in nature, and is not drawn.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

You ought to have cared while these guys,cheneY and his busH did their worst to ruin the economy of the US and since we are the largest in the world,effecting you and yours wherever you live.I was casting about to see IF y'all even could speak up since they weren't commander in chiefs anymore.You didn't speak up when you could have to stop this,now it's probably too late,so it was just an excercise.And a weak brew it got,too.


Bush and Cheney are not Masons.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by emsed1
 

I know that.The point was the very obvious similarities and probable cross mutually beneficial relationship between two secretive groups(Masons and Skull&Bones)as evidenced by seeming inability of Masons to say anything against the predations of a Skull&Bones member,and his obvious handler of the last 8 years.Since Masonry does tend to include people who get help from other Masons in a mutually benefiting way due to internal rules such as never speaking ill of brother Masons and not to deny a widow's son.Relating all to ATS,back on topic,why are there so many Masons here?To deny ignorance?Or speak up?Or hele?Your being able to truthfully speak to these most important topics would prove me wrong to the extent of your speech,woulden't it?



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