Gold Standard Returns!!!--Indiana State Senator Files Gold Money Bill!, page 6

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum

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If you want to learn about resources then this is not the place to do it. I recommend a site called The Oil Drum

But isn't oil also known as BLACK GOLD?

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum

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Resources are land, water and energy. Without land it is tough to get the others. In order for money of any kind to work all of the participants must have faith. Faith that their skills to work the system are better then the other guy. Gold is not land though it is found in the land. It is not water though it can be found in the water. It is not energy nor will it burn. So what is it? Cool to look at and is good in electronics and fillings.

I did not mean to be cute or trivial with your earlier post, Mr A/M. I had to go to lunch and did not have time to give a better reply. Sorry about that.

I know that my last couple of posts have drifted rather far from the topic of the Indiana state senator and his bill to make gold legal tender in Indiana. Since we know that is NOT realistic, it must have some other motive. It may be he wanted some national press attention. Maybe he is considering a run on the House seat in the district he lives in? Or maybe he is just a good Ron Paul devotee? In any case I put him down at worst as a joke or at best as a jokester.

All of which does not prevent the discussion about gold and silver as coins of the realm. It opens the opportunity to suggest that the US get OFF fiat money and go to specie backed currency. That is a legal possibility. However, if the ordinary man (or woman) knew that would mean his wages would be cut by a factor of 10 or more, that is, to about 10% of the current level, he would object unless his long term obligations were similarly reduced. The new SPECIE law would have to specify the holder of debt must accept the new coins at 10X their face value when applied to debt payments. You could pay your $100 electric bill with 1 of the new $10 silver coins.

See Exerts from US Con:
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3: “Congress shall have power . . To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states; Clause 5: To coin money, regulate the value thereof . . “

Section 10. Clause 1: “No state shall . . coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any . . law impairing the obligation of contracts . . “

This Constitutional prohibition against impairing contracts may need some inventive judicial interpretation! That’s the job of an activist Supreme Court!

[edit on 1/19/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum

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Oil is a portable and easy to transport liquid that when burned correctly yields 140,000 BTU per gallon. Our entire economy is based on it and everything we have relies on it or the other fossil fuels both directly and indirectly. You may want to consider sites like The Oil Drum since they talk about our resources in great depth. Well by well analysis is used along with discussions and facts about alternate liquids and nuclear.

The alarming thing about oil is how we have come to rely not only on it as a fuel for our American mobility and more, our way of life! So many products we use every day are packaged in petroleum derived containers and wrappings. Every plastic item is a product of a fossil fuel. The gas we use in our refrigeration system - replacing the earlier ammonia based cooling systems - are hydrocarbons make from fossil fuels. Much of our food is grown with pesticides, herbicides and insecticides based on oil. I don’t know if it is still done, but when I was posted to Keesler AFB in the 1950s, in the summer we sprayed a fine oil mixture into the air to keep down the mosquito populations. We are hooked on oil! As I posted above, every man, woman and child in America uses 3 gallons of crude oil EVERY day. I don't know how we are going to get OFF oil, but most likely it will be COLD TURKEY!


FYI Aside. Notice the Judicial Article. It establishes the THIRD branch of our Government. Co-equal. That is why the Supreme Court can prohibit prayer in public schools but NOT prohibit the Article 1 Congress from opening each day with prayer, nor the Article 2 Executive branch from hiring chaplains to accompany the Armed Forces. And the Supreme Court may open with prayer too, I know not on that. I do know the SC Building was a stylized 2 tablets of the Ten Commandments on its wall.

I have copied the entire Article here. I did that to illustrate how little was put into the Constitution about how our legal system was to work. That is because everyone was satisfied with the system then in effect - in 1787. All 13 states were “common law” states. Only Louisiana is a Napoleonic Code state. There are no juries in the Napoleonic Code but because our constitution provides for jury trials in both civil and criminal cases, that part of the Louisiana law had to be modified. And it should also be noted that the new federal government had no criminal law code. The states were all organized along the lines of England. Trial courts, and an appeal court. OK, enough.


Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority; --to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls; --to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; --to controversies to which the United States shall be a party; --to controversies between two or more states; --between citizens of different states; --between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted. END.

[edit on 1/19/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by tjeffersonsghost

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Originally posted by ANNED
The big problem is there is not enough gold in the vaults in the US to back the deal. Great idea as it would need the mining of a lot of new gold. This would put a lot of my friends back to work. Since we have only mined 1/10 0f one % of the recoverable gold in the US this would also put a lot of people back to work mining gold. It would also raise the price of gold to more then $2000 a ounce. www.origsix.com...

sure there is. They would have to revalue gold to its real value though like they did in the 30s. I wouldn't be so sure that wont happen again......

Now how or who can determine the REAL VALUE of gold? Over the past five years gold has been valued by the open market from $500 to $1,000 and was last at $843 yesterday. Are you anticipating some GIANT GOLD AUTHORITY will just say, "Gold is worth $10,000 per troy ounce."

But look at the last sentence of this synopsis of the bill introduced in the Indiana General Assembly.


Senate Bill 0453
2009 Regular Session

DIGEST OF INTRODUCED BILL

Use of gold by the state and local government.

Requires the treasurer of state to designate one or more electronic gold currency payment providers to be a payment provider for the state and political subdivisions.

Requires the treasurer of state and fiscal officers of political subdivisions to: (1) maintain one or more electronic gold currency accounts with a designated electronic gold currency payment provider; and (2) conduct all monetary transactions of the state or political subdivisions through electronic gold currency accounts.

Provides that an electronic gold currency payment provider must use an electronic gold currency unit that constitutes a monetary unit of account and represents a claim of title to and ownership of a specifically defined, fixed weight of gold held by an independent specie vault.

Specifies that a specie exchange with which an electronic gold currency payment provider associates must conduct the business of exchanging gold and silver coin, legal tender of the United States, and the electronic gold currency of the electronic gold currency payment provider.

Provides that after December 31, 2009, the state and political subdivisions may not compel or require any person to recognize, receive, pay out, deliver, promise to pay, or otherwise use or employ anything but gold and silver coin (in that form or in the form of a designated electronic gold currency) as media of exchange with respect to certain payments.

Provides that after December 31, 2009, a person receiving certain payments from the state or a political subdivision has the option of accepting payment in either legal tender of the United States or in electronic gold currency. Allows a person engaging in covered transactions to elect to receive or to pay a designated electronic gold currency instead of legal tender of the United States.

Provides that if a person does not make a timely election, the medium of exchange for the transaction is legal tender of the United States.

Specifies that if there is not sufficient gold in the state's or a political subdivision's accounts with electronic gold currency payment providers for the state or the political subdivision to make any payment in gold, the payment shall be made in legal tender of the United States.
END


The key to success or failure of this bill is how much the “electronic gold currency payment providers” will charge or be allowed to charge per transaction. ATM operators are charging $3 or $4 per transaction. We have learned the hard way there are NO Federal or state regulations on how much the ATM machine owners can charge you! Hey, that’s yet one more triumph of the Reagan Revolution! You're on your own and by yourself!

[edit on 1/19/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by OBE1

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First, what happened to the public Gold stock between Dec '32' and March '33' ? Citizens were required by Executive Order (April 5, 1933), to surrender all of their Gold coin by May 1, 1933. In January of '34', after Roosevelt had devalued the dollar, there still remained 13.9MM ounces of Gold coin in 'circulation'. In other words, only 21.9% was ever surrendered.

First, I’d guess the drop in circulating gold coins from 27.6 m oz worth about $570 million dollars down to 17.8 m oz worth about $367 million, was because the COINS were taken out of circulation in anticipation of Roosevelt’s action taking the nation off the gold standard.

Remember FDR was not inaugurated until March 4, 1933. It was not doubt discussed during the election campaign that had just ended in November, 1932, one month before the December numbers.

Gold stock I take it means what I’d call bullion.

Now you have quoted the story saying Roosevelt DEVALUED the dollar and I disputed that. I have reflected on this and have come to the conclusion you are right and I am wrong. FDR did devalue the dollar. It took $35 to buy what formerly $20.67 would buy. That means the value of the FDR dollar was cut 69.3%. Sorry about that.

[edit on 1/19/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


Now how or who can determine the REAL VALUE of gold? Over the past five years gold has been valued by the open market from $500 to $1,000 and was last at $843 yesterday. Are you anticipating some GIANT GOLD AUTHORITY will just say, "Gold is worth $10,000 per troy ounce."

But look at the last sentence of this synopsis of the bill introduced in the Indiana General Assembly.

If you want to call it the open market. Ill call it the manipulation market. You summed it up we have $20 billion in gold in our vaults and we have $60 trillion dollars in debt.

We have a monetary base that looks like this...




and we have a FED balance sheet that looks like this...

www.federalreserve.gov...

and your telling me that silver should only be at $11 and gold at $800? This is what they were priced in 1980. Gold should indeed be at $10,000 oz. but has been manipulated by the FED so the face of inflation doesnt appear to exist. Even now when silver and gold is in short demand and going WELL above spot prices on the true open market the paper market values will not adjust. This wreaks of manipulation. There is no free market in PMs.

Now to the revaluing of gold why is that out of the realm of possibility? We did it in 1933 why couldnt we do it again? What makes you so sure it wont happen again?

does anyone know if this article is true davianletter.com...

Thanks for your insight. Scary stuff Uncle Sam can pull.

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost

Originally posted by donwhite


Now how or who can determine the REAL VALUE of gold? Over the past five years gold has been valued by the open market from $500 to $1,000 and was last at $843 yesterday. Are you anticipating some GIANT GOLD AUTHORITY will just say, "Gold is worth $10,000 per troy ounce."

But look at the last sentence of this synopsis of the bill introduced in the Indiana General Assembly.

If you want to call it the open market. Ill call it the manipulation market. You summed it up we have $20 billion in gold in our vaults and we have $60 trillion dollars in debt.

We have a monetary base that looks like this...




and we have a FED balance sheet that looks like this...

www.federalreserve.gov...

and your telling me that silver should only be at $11 and gold at $800? This is what they were priced in 1980. Gold should indeed be at $10,000 oz. but has been manipulated by the FED so the face of inflation doesnt appear to exist. Even now when silver and gold is in short demand and going WELL above spot prices on the true open market the paper market values will not adjust. This wreaks of manipulation. There is no free market in PMs.

Now to the revaluing of gold why is that out of the realm of possibility? We did it in 1933 why couldnt we do it again? What makes you so sure it wont happen again?

those charts are misleading and the FED WISHES people would be concerned about inflation (and spend spend spend) and not save.....because their true fear is DEFLATION

the first chart is misleading because it includes the adjusted monetary base AND excess reserves held at the fed.......the spike is because more banks are holding dollars at fed because the fed in OCT offered to pay 1% interest on those deposite which is ABOVE the fed funds rate and offers a free accumulation of revenue....also the fed has decided to hold more banks toxic assets in return for treasury bills and this is reflected (i believe in your charts)

here is a good link www.safehaven.com...

john mauldin says to look at a chart for Money at Zero Maturity for a better rate of money growth....as well as velocity of money . i would believe


i also don't think that inflation needs to increase much to send gold higher.....just a flight out of Treasury (dept) i.e , notes, bills, Bonds (determined by time to maturity 3M, 10 Y , 30Y ) and into gold.

also Jim willie thinks there is a good chance of a ONE TIME (overnite) 20-30% devaluation in the dollar .....perhaps banks privvy to this info (JP morgan , BOA, goldman) would make some visible moves prior to this announcement OBE1?

Originally posted by cpdaman
....also Jim willie thinks there is a good chance of a ONE TIME (overnite) 20-30% devaluation in the dollar .....perhaps banks privvy to this info (JP morgan , BOA, goldman) would make some visible moves prior to this announcement....

Hi CP.

I'm not sure if you mean JW is predicting a dollar collapse, or an official devaluation against major fiat'. An "official" devaluation would assume a cost of living wage increase, and possibly the issuance of a "new" currency. I believe those are still remote possibilities, but we could say that every major move up in US dollar denominated Gold represents a de facto devaluation of Uncle Buck. Same holds true for other major currencies...Gold rising in Sterling, Euro, AUD, Franc...et al.

Visible Moves:

In a perfect world, LBMA Bullion Banks, unofficial agents of the Treasury/Fed would go net long...discontinue their ruse of running the stops at every technical resistance point...covering for profit.

Large producer; Barrick Gold, is an admitted "agent" for the Federal Reserve Bank in the Gold price suppression game. Before Gold is allowed to run in dramatic fashion, I would expect to see Barrick cover more of their 9.5 million oz forward sales contracts...representing a mark to market liability (loss) of approx $5 billion @ today's spot price but de-hedging by the majors is actually declining last I read 08.

----------

*Official U. S. Government Gold price = $42.222 oz

If you click tjeffersonsghost' link to the Fed balance sheet above, under the entry; Gold Stock, you will find an asset amounting to $11,041,000,000...the entire US Gold stock of 261MM ounces valued at the official rate of $42.222 oz. Yes, the Fed holds a claim on all of "our" Gold in the form of US Gold Certificates issued by "our" Treasury. As a US citizen, did you realize that "your" Gold is an asset of the Federal Reserve Bank?

Edit: Just read at Jesse' that JPM and HSBC hold "approximately 98% of all gold derivatives in the world."

Edit add:

Barrick Gold was the largest dehedger in the period under review, converting 1.0 Moz of fixed price contracts into floating price contracts.

Global hedging has fallen 10.3 Moz in the first nine months of 2008, but it is likely that full year dehedging will still be in our forecast range of 10-12 Moz as Q4 08 dehedging should slow sharply. In 2009 this slowdown will continue, as AngloGold Ashanti will have finished their dehedging programme, and together with Barrick they account for all but 4-5 Moz of global hedging. Nevertheless we expect further modest dehedging, with perhaps 1 Moz a quarter. However it is almost impossible to predict turning points, and the possibility of both much higher and much lower dehedging - or even an increase in hedging, cannot be discounted.

A 5% decline in the gold price, and the continuing reduction in the size of the hedge book, improved the mark-to-market valuation of the global book to negative $7.6bn, $1.8bn better than a revised negative $9.4bn at the end of Q2 08.

Full Text

I look for any sign of intensified de-hedging by "insider" Barrick as a signal that the cartel is preparing for Gold well above $1000.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by OBE1]

[edit on 23-1-2009 by OBE1]

reply to post by cpdaman

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Deflation needs to happen to get our economy in balance. In a free market world yes deflation would be the problem or should I say the solution to the problem but the FED and our government is not allowing it to happen. They are trying to paper over all of the previous leveraged wealth by keeping the printers on 24/7. This is not deflation my friend this is inflation. We need to be allowing banks to go under and we need to allow bankruptcies so this bad debt can be liquidated. Is it deflationary yes it is but its what needs to happen because of this HUGE credit bubble and deficit spending by the criminals in Washington. I tell you what Ill stick with my inflation bet and Ill hold on to all my physical silver I have. If inflation isnt the issue then buying bonds should be your thing or shorting gold. I wouldnt recommend doing either.

Originally posted by cpdaman
those charts are misleading and the FED WISHES people would be concerned about inflation (and spend spend spend) and not save.....because their true fear is DEFLATION

While we often stand cheek to jowl CP, I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Jawboning moderate inflation has been an active Fed strategy for the past year or so...integral to shoring-up treasuries...while printing like there's no tomorrow. Mucho deficit spending on the horizon...and it appears the long bond is beginning to react.

Remember BB' statement in London just over a week ago?

Exit Strategy

"At this point, with global economic activity weak and commodity prices at low levels, we see little risk of inflation in the near term; indeed, we expect inflation to continue to moderate."

Full Text

James Turk has some experience dealing with the constitutionality issues surrounding Gold and Silver as currency. He comments on the legality of both the Indiana bill...and the New Hampshire bill: Restoring Sound Money in America

For those that don't support the Gold price manipulation theory, watch the price action as we move into tomorrow's options expiry. There is a boatload of calls at $900. It will be in the interest of the market ptb to keep those contracts from expiring in the money. If the take-down attempt fails to close Gold below $900......very bullish signal.

Edit: Futures options expiry was actually today, and the All Powerful Cartel Options Writers got their break below $900.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by OBE1]

Originally posted by OBE1
James Turk has some experience dealing with the constitutionality issues surrounding Gold and Silver as currency. He comments on the legality of both the Indiana bill...and the New Hampshire bill: Restoring Sound Money in America

For those that don't support the Gold price manipulation theory, watch the price action as we move into tomorrow's options expiry. There is a boatload of calls at $900. It will be in the interest of the market ptb to keep those contracts from expiring in the money. If the take-down attempt fails to close Gold below $900......very bullish signal.

That right there is a great article and I actually learned something. I too never understood what it meant by "regulate the value thereof." If Indiana or New Hampshire does indeed pass the law I am moving there and I do 100% mean this. I have house here in Florida and land in Iowa I was going to build on but I will sell them both and move there (preferably New Hampshire). Thanks for the article.

reply to post by pittrader

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So, buying gold, silver, and precious metals is truly one of the few ways you can immunize yourself from the coming inflationary confiscation of wealth. Owning physical gold and silver and keeping it safely in your possession is a good idea! If you can’t get gold, buy silver, platinum, palladium, etc., all in physical form. While you still can, think about moving into physical form any gold in ETFs you have; you won’t be sorry you did!

I see nothing new here. It's always been this way. In bad times you buy gold, in good times you don't. Or you sell what you bought in bad times. It is a measure of or reflection of CONFIDENCE or FAITH in the paper money.

The problem is gold (or anything material) cannot multiply itself. Paper money in a properly managed ecnomy can. Not in a FREE MARKET economy as surely you have all now learend and learned well.

Good by Ronnie, you did us in!

No money lost under pro government REGULATING Dems; trillions lost under NO regs anti government Republicans. And that's a fact.

Further back in this thread I mentioned that I try to stay abreast of any news regarding Barrick Gold' hedge book. Every move to close-down (reduce) this 9.5MM oz obligation is a positive for the POG.

Floated in the news yesterday:

Gold's biggest name in the spotlight
Wednesday , 25 Feb 2009

Is Barrick, the world's biggest gold miner by value and production, preparing for a bought deal of up to USD 3bn?

Barrick could be good for a raising of up to USD 3bn. This would free up its balance sheet, allow it to chip away at its hedge book, and provide it with greater flexibility for further possible acquisitions.

Text

This bought deal financing has the potential to remove $3BB worth of Gold from the market, and send it back into Fed deep storage from whence it came.

When this correction bottoms (if 930 doesn't hold, then 880), watch for Barrick to begin taking delivery on existing futures contracts.

Also from yesterday....

Gold-backed security set for Dubai roll out *

*Positive from the supply side...but ony if this ETF is actually wharehousing physical Gold...as opposed to OTC derivatives.

Ya never know for sure.






[edit on 27-2-2009 by OBE1]

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