Why don't Muslims condemn violence commited by Muslims?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Noone is denying that there are Muslims who would not think on doing what the islamic terrorists are doing, but that's not really the point is it?

The question is do Islamic scriptures condemn the killings of non-Islamic people?

Yes, the Qur'an does condemn the killing of non-Muslims, it condemns murder, period.

Thinker, I can tell you have never read the Qur'an.

The Qur'an clearly states that someone who kills an innocent person is as if he killed the entire world. And whoever saves an innocent life it's as if he saved the entire world.

Originally posted by Thinker
The question is do Islamic scriptures condemn the killings of non-Islamic people?

well if it did, their wouldn't be terrorists...

I can't think of too many IRA members who were avid readers of the Koran.
Or any neo-nazis....or ETTA members, KKK etc.

Illmatic, what is this then.



"[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
guard (against evil)."

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

www.kuran.gen.tr...

I do believe everyone is entitled to religious freedom, but when any religion says to go forth and kill those who are not believers of their prophet in the name of any God/Gods, then I find it a big problem.

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Muaddib]

"Yes, the Qur'an does condemn the killing of non-Muslims, it condemns murder, period.

Thinker, I can tell you have never read the Qur'an.

The Qur'an clearly states that someone who kills an innocent person is as if he killed the entire world. And whoever saves an innocent life it's as if he saved the entire world."
"""
3. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND MOHAMMED
Jesus' birth as the Messiah was prophesied in Scripture. Mohammed's birth as the so-called Seal of the Prophets was not.

Through many witnesses, the Holy Spirit established the lineage of the Christ from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob to the tribe of Judah and out of the house of David (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 21:12, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14, 49:10; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 18:50, 89:3-4, 89:20, 132:11; Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1, 11:10; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:14-15). Moreover, it was prophesied through Isaiah that the Messiah would be conceived by a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). It was prophesied through Micah that he would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). And, it was prophesied through the typology in the third and sixth chapters of Zechariah that his name would be 'Joshua' (of which 'Jesus' is the Hellenized form).

Who prophesied the birth of Mohammed as a true prophet of God? No one. No one except Mohammed. Mohammed wrote:

"Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.'"

Surah LXI (17)
There is no record that the Lord Jesus said any such thing!

Throughout the Koran, Mohammed refutes that Jesus was the Son of God:

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him."

Surah IV (18)
"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are!"

Surah V (19)
"The Creator of the heavens and the earth --- how should He have a Son, seeing that He has no consort, and He created all things, and He has knowledge of everything?"

Surah VI (20)
"The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God;' the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, confirming with the unbelievers before them."

Surah IX (21)
"They [the Christians] say, 'God has taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. what, so you say concerning God that you know not? Say: 'Those who forge against God falsehood shall not prosper. Some enjoyment in this world; then unto Us they shall return; then We shall let them taste the terrible chastisement, for that they were unbelievers [in Mohammed and the Koran].'"

Surah X (22)
"Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son."

Surah XVII (23)
"And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son' You have indeed advanced something hideous! The heavens are well-nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well-nigh fall down crashing for they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and it behooves not the All-merciful to take a son."

Surah XIX (24)
"God has not taken to Himself any son."

Surah XXIII (25)
"He has not taken to Him a son."

Surah XXV (26)
"Is it not of their own calumny that they say, 'God has begotten?' They are truly liars."

Surah XXXVII (27)
"And when the son of Mary is cited as an example, behold, thy people turn away from it and say, 'What are our gods better, or he?' They [the Christians] cite him not to thee, save to dispute; nay, but they are a people contentious. He is only a servant We blessed, and We made him to be an example to the Children of Israel."

Surah VXLIII (28)
It was Mohammed's self-proclaimed mission ". . . to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son.'" (29) Yet, many have testified of the Messiah's Sonship. It was prophesied by the Holy Spirit through King David: "I will be his father, and he shall be my son" (2 Samuel 7:14). Through Isaiah: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" (Isaiah 9:6). Through Gabriel to Mary: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32) and "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). John the Baptist bore record that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1:32-34). God Himself testified twice of Jesus: "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED" (Matthew 3:17, 17:5; Mark 1:11, 9:7; and, Luke 3:22, 9:35). Saint Mark testified in his gospel: "Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1).

Even the unclean spirits recognized that Jesus was the Son of God: "And, behold, they cried out, saying, 'What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?'" Matthew 8:29 (30)

To casual observers and lifeless Christians, that Mohammed claimed God had no Son in Jesus does not seem to be so very damaging: after all, they think, he did acknowledge that Jesus was a prophet, --- "a Messenger of God." These fail to see that for Mohammed to have stated that Jesus was not a prophet would have kept many from his own teachings; it would have precluded their even listening to his message. Further, these fail to see that Mohammed had to include Jesus within his teachings if he was to be more convincing concerning his own authority. It is easier to deceive if you pretend to build on an already-established foundation. It is easier to destroy if you claim a heritage in Truth:

"Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light, thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God's Book as they were given to keep and were witness to. . . . And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing."

Surah V (31)
Mohammed tries to persuade us that the Koran is just as scriptural as the Torah and the Gospels. He tries to make it seem as if the Torah and the Gospels and the Koran are equal parts in a threefold plan of divine revelation to humankind. Why? The most effective way to win individuals over to your way of thinking is to, first, tell them what they already believe is true (so you don't alienate them) and, second, slowly persuade them that what they don't yet know or understand can be provided for, or answered by, your doctrines: the wolf-in-shepherd's-clothing approach, so to speak.

Both Moses and Jesus proved their words with works and signs following. The miracles performed through them punctuated the truths they spoke and the lives they lived. Christ Jesus said:

". . . for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

John 5:36
And:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, 'Thou blasphemest;' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him."

John 10:36-38
Mohammed did not prove his words with works. Oh, he frequently proclaims that the Surahs (the main divisions or chapters) of the Koran are themselves "signs, clear signs." But there are no accounts of miracles wrought through him, save those unreliable that are attributed to him through the imagination and fancy of his followers. Mohammed tries to explain away the absence of such proofs this way:

"They say, 'Why have signs not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The signs are only with God, and I am only a plain warner.' What, is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them [meaning the Koran]? Surely, in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe."

Surah XXIX (32)
"It is He who has sent His Messenger [Mohammed] with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion. God suffices as a witness."

Surah XLVIII (33)
Mohammed claimed that it was only for him to deliver "the Message Manifest," --- the final word from God. (34) He tried to delude the people into thinking that he was the Christ returned to earth. In doing so, the Devil sought to establish his authority for overturning the principles of peace, love, and forgiveness taught by the real Savior.

Jesus instructed us to love our enemies, to revile not when reviled, to forgive those who despitefully use us, and to refrain from judgment (the condemnation of our peers). Hear what Mohammed had to say on those topics:

"O believers, prescribed for you is retaliation, touching the slain; freeman for freeman, slave for slave, female for female . . . In retaliation there is life for you, men possessed of minds; haply you will be godfearing."

Surah II (35)
"And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you. . . . And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; [your own] persecution is more grievous than slaying [others]."

Surah II (36)
"Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you . . . "

Surah II (37)
"Prescribed for you is fighting, though it be hateful to you."

Surah II (38)
" . . . take not to yourselves friends of them [the disbelievers] until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them . . . "

Surah IV (39)
"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off, or they shall be banished from the land."

Surah V (40)
"Fight them [the unbelievers], till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely."

Surah VIII (41)
"It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land."

Surah III (42)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush."

Surah IX (43)
"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day."

Surah IX (44)
"And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally; and know that God is with the godfearing."

Surah IX (45)
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the Godfearing."

Surah IX (46)
"The recompense of evil is evil the like of it . . . "

Surah XLII (47)
"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads."

Surah XLVII (48)
"Mohammed is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another."

Surah XLVIII (49)
"Thou shalt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day who are loving to anyone who opposes God and His Messenger."

Surah LVIII (50)
"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them."

Surah LXVI (51)
It should be clear that the literature of Mohammed is hateful, encouraging people to live both in fear and by the sword in judgment of one another. Compare the preceding quotations with the following instructions given by the Christ:

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye: for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not, and ye shall not be comdemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete, withal it shall be measured to you again."

Luke 6:27-38
Having compared the previous passage with those immediately preceding it, which one of the two --- Jesus or Mohammed --- do you think is the true witness of the loving Father?

Considering what is written in the Koran, there should be little wonder why Bibles are not allowed into countries over which the banner of Islam flies. The people of those nations might be able to read:

"Thus saith the Lord: SUCH AS ARE FOR DEATH, TO DEATH: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE SWORD, TO THE SWORD: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE FAMINE, TO THE FAMINE: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE CAPTIVITY, TO THE CAPTIVITY."

Jeremiah 15:2
"Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matthew 26:52
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword."

Revelation 13:10
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather, give place unto wrath: for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

Romans 12:19-21
In short, they would find out that the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, --- the one of whom Christ Jesus came to testify, is a god of peace and love and not a god of war and hate. Moreover, they would learn of the Levitical high priest and his role as intercessor for the children of Israel, offering sacrifice once a year for their sins, and how Christ Jesus was sent to sacrifice himself "once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). They would learn how the Old Testament events, rules, and regulations were but a figure, or typology, of things to come. They would learn to understand the role of the Lamb as Intercessor for all nations under the sun. And, finally, concerning their relationship to Christ Jesus, they would learn that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Throughout the Koran, Mohammed attempts to undercut the role of Christ Jesus as Savior. He tries to negate that the Lamb "bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12) and that "he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25):

"Intercessor there is none, save after His leave."

Surah X (52)
". . . no intercessors shall they have amongst their associates, and they shall disbelieve in their associates."

Surah XXX (53)
"Intercession will not avail with Him save for him to whom He gives leave."

Surah XXXIV (54)
"To God belongs intercession altogether."

Surah XXXIV (55)
". . . the evildoers [those who do not believe in Mohammed and the Koran] have not one loyal friend, no intercessor to be heeded."

Surah XL (56)
". . . no soul laden bears the load of another."

Surah LIII (57)
"Come, now, and God's Messenger [meaning Mohammed] will ask forgiveness for you."

Surah LXIII (58)
It is plain that Mohammed tried to set himself up in Jesus' stead. What of the crucifixion? In his own form of gnostic Docetism, Mohammed accounts it cruci-fiction:

". . . they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them."

Surah IV (59)
Guilty of the ultimate crime against God are those who say that Jesus is not the Christ and that He did not die for our sins. For that reason alone, Mohammed condemns himself and his followers (so long as they remain his followers). The Lord Jesus said:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:16-18
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye shall receive."

John 5:43
"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father."

John 15:22-24
Simply stated, without Christ Jesus we have no advocate with the Father. If we reject the one God sent, we reject the mercy He extends to us through that one.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Illmatic, what is this then.



"[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
guard (against evil)."

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

www.kuran.gen.tr...

If you want to have the chance to understand the Qur'an you have to understand the period it was written for.

I'd be the first to admit that Islam has had a militant but humble beginnings in order to preserve the early life of Islam.

Muhammad received his first revelation at around 610 AD and he didn't begin preaching in Mecca until his third or fourth year of hearing his first revelation.

So he started preaching and the Quraysh who were pagans began to prosecute him and the first Muslims. Because of this, Muhammad that to emigrate north to Medina.

So, what does all this have to do with Islam and those quotes from the Qur'an you've posted.

Those quotes were for that TIME.

Muhammad himself said that at any given day he'd receive a sign or revelation of danger coming or the enemy approaching. He'd receive revelations during BATTLE.

Those quotes you've posted are not the essential and core of Islam. Those quotes were for the survival of Muhammad and Islam. Islam wouldn't be a religion today if it wasn't for the battles Muhammad had to fight and defend for his survival.

The essential and core beliefs of Islam is love, peace, and happiness.

The word Islam itself means peace.

This is the best I can explain it to a non-Muslim.

Nice copy and paste job.

You mind giving us the link or the source from your copy/paste job?

Instead of asking such questions, take the time to open your minds and search. Islam condemns murder just as Christianity does....etc, etc.
There a fanatical Christians just as there are fanatical Muslims of Islam.

Using scriputure, either from the Qur'an or the Bible is not cutting it for arguments in the "for" of violence, murder, etc.

I have provided some indepth Islamic views on violence, terrorism, and murder, and they are easily backed and verified, be it by books or internet sources.

This continued argument on what the Qur'an says is beyond reproach and amounts to idiocy...the very same arguments being issued here against Islam can be leveled against Christianity!

You guys need to knock the # off, really.


seekerof

members.aol.com...

Originally posted by Muaddib
I am just trying to find from those people who keep saying that Islam is a peaceful religion.

You found one right here.

Thinker, MudPit or not...where is your source information for Post Number: 468111?
Provide it please. You really need to cite your sources.


seekerof

"There a fanatical Christians just as there are fanatical Muslims of Islam. "

I don't think jesus was fanatical, but i know mohammed was.

My faith is in JESUS, and for others believe in what you want to believe.

"Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matthew 26:52


"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush."

Surah IX (43)


Condradiction here...one is from GOD and one is not.

Are you claiming that death, mayham, genocide, eradication has never been sanctioned by Christianity, all in the name of God....and not just what you attempting to push...Allah?

Do you have any idea the amount of people who were exterminated, killed, tortured, and eradicated by the Spanish Inquisition, all in the name of GOD?

I hear ya brother, keep preaching that one-sided idiocy.


seekerof

I am starting to hate religion more and more.....

Humanity sounds like a bunch of bickering children on the playground.....

Child#1Did not!

Child#2Did too!

Child#1 Well, my god is right and your's is wrong!

Child#2 Oh yeah? Well...we are the choosen people of god!!!

Child#1 Are not!

Child#2 Are too!!!

Child#1 Doodie-face!

Child#2 Fart-breath!!!

and on it goes.......I am losing faith in mankind. Life it too short to condemn other people's beliefs or to believe that one's own beliefs are better than another's..... no one can actually prove anyone right or wrong, it is all based on faith. No one has actual proof that their religion is right!

All that has been done in the name of religion has done nothing but keep me away from Churches, Synagoges and Mosques. They can all have each other.

I want to meet and interact with fellow human beings, not religions.

"Spanish Inquisition, all in the name of GOD?"

I believe jesus is very clear about murder. So one that follows jesus doesn't kill is a christian, one that calls himself a christian and kills is not a christian, since being a christian is following the path of jesus.

""I want to meet and interact with fellow human beings, not religions.""

I believe that is called secularism relgion, which is controled by society.

Relgion is just "Way of life"

Everyone has a way, so everyone has a relgion.

Seekeroff, If the teachings of Christianity, as it was preached by their most important "messenger", went off to say the same things that are found in the Koran, or approved the killings that were done in the past before Christianity, then I would be saying the same thing of Christianism.

Every person is entitled to think and believe whatever he/she wants to believe, but when becuase of those beliefs human lives are taken, it is also the right of others to question those beliefs.

As for Christianity in the middle ages killing in the name of religion, that was because those people were corrupt and ignorant, not because their prophet told them to do it.

We are not in the middle ages anymore what is happening "right now" is being done by "Islamic extremists" and finding the reason for this is very important if we are going to make sure it never happens again.

I don't remember Jesus or Buddha going forward with a sword conquering the world and killing in the name of religion.

As i said before, yes there are Muslims that would not think of doing this even thou it was preached by their own prophet, but that doesn't make Islam a peaceful religion it makes those Muslims that won't kill in the name of religion have a conscience.

Originally posted by Thinker
""I want to meet and interact with fellow human beings, not religions.""

I believe that is called secularism relgion, which is controled by society.

Relgion is just "Way of life"

Everyone has a way, so everyone has a relgion.

I never said anything about secularism or any "ism." I simply mentioned that I want to be around people who are not overly concerned with one's spiritual belief's.

How does "has a way" or "way of life" have to do with religion? Just simply exisiting does not mean you subscribe to a religion. That is BS.
Being an atheist does not mean religion. It just means that you think there is nothing after death. No more, no less.

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Facefirst]

Muaddib

Yes. Islam is radicle, but most followers are morderate.