I would be surprised if gay people still want to fight and give their lives for so many stubborn people the US knows [and post over here]..
So people are afraid for gay people in the shower?..aaahhh.. were you also afraid for gay people in your football team? in the shower? and afraid to pass him the ball in the field? or to receive the ball?to bad you didnt won that game then.....damn thats not just a little homofobic, thats pathetic..
really you should learn and read some more about the Spartans and their gay -and brotherhood in their military, and you cannot say those soldiers were not full of Testosterone and eager to fight..



[edit on 15-1-2009 by Foppezao]

another thing.
do you realise how much of an contradiction this DADT really is?
-Dont ask
we dont ask when you enter the military or during time, we would have if it was important for the functioning of the unit you're in, we do want to ask about things considering your mental state if we would like to keep you out etc..we dont ask because it is not so important..BUT
-Dont tell either, cause then we would fire you! cause maybe we think it is important afterall..
dont let them in,in the first first place but no you woulnd't dare doing that..cause of the civil rights benevolent heretic is talking about
its a contradiction hence it doesnt make any sense..



[edit on 15-1-2009 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It seems to me that they're flying just fine. After all, this thread is about the policy being changed very soon. Apparently plenty of people agree with my argument.

Besides, this isn't a popularity contest. Isn't it pretty clear that I don't really care if people agree with me or not?

The fact that I'm not in the military is neither here nor there when talking about the civil rights of the people of this country.

Well, you might think they are "flying just fine", but how about going to an actually military base/post and ask them? I wonder if you'd find "plenty of people" that will agree with you there.

And yes, being in the military does matter. Policy is trying to be changed by people that will not be affected by it.

Hey, but that's OK. Not everyone has the sand to join the military.

Originally posted by Common Good
BTW, are you gay ?
Im sure you can answer truthfully since you believe "dont ask dont tell" should be abolished.

I have no problem whatsoever answering that. I am a 51-year-old straight woman, married to the coolest guy in the world. Any other questions?

Like I said. Both of you big, bad military men resort to personal attacks because you've LOST the argument.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Lost the arguement? I didnt know I wassupposed to be arguing with you. If I did, I would have been a little more harsh than I was. So,where did you come up with the conclusion that you won anything? I cant help it if you are naive to the real world. You have problems accepting things for the way they are mom.

Hmm ....... I might be missing something here.

A person who is gay but hides that fact is a safe, reliable, dependable person to be deployed with on a military mission.

A person who is honest and open about being gay is an unsafe, unreliable and undependable person you wouldn't want watching your back?

So honesty and self assurance are bad character traits as far as the military is concerned.

Obviously that can't be the right conclusion. That just leaves the showers. Thats where honesty and self assurance must be the problem.

Now I understand

Originally posted by wayno
Hmm ....... I might be missing something here.

A person who is gay but hides that fact is a safe, reliable, dependable person to be deployed with on a military mission.

A person who is honest and open about being gay is an unsafe, unreliable and undependable person you wouldn't want watching your back?

So honesty and self assurance are bad character traits as far as the military is concerned.

Obviously that can't be the right conclusion. That just leaves the showers. Thats where honesty and self assurance must be the problem.

Now I understand

Its mind boggling isnt it? And thats how this world operates. The guy sitting in the foxhole with his fellow soldier not knowing he is gay, feels at ease about the situation because he just as much of a man as the next guy. But if the guy in the foxhole openly states he is gay, I am sure the straight guy wont be so reliant on him watching his back. Weird how that works isnt it? Its all about state of mind.

Originally posted by wayno

Obviously that can't be the right conclusion. That just leaves the showers. Thats where honesty and self assurance must be the problem.

Dude, I think the showers is the MAIN part of allowing gays in the military that every troop has a problem with!

(former Military here)

Very NOT good

This REALLY Does Not Lend Itself Very Well To A Combat Environment

gays are distracted by fellow soldiers' a's, and now fellow soldiers will be distracted by thinking known gays are checking out their a

BTW, this is where the whole movement has been leading

“a long habit of NOT thinking a thing Wrong, gives it a SUPERFICIAL appearance of being Right.”
-Thomas Paine




[edit on 1-15-09 by atoms.2008]

Every single time I hear about "equal rights," "fairness," "equal opportunity," and all the proper politically correct terminology used, I find that generally, they are all terms for "standardization reduction."

We have lowered the achievement levels of our education system, to where graduates today, know less than ninth graders at the turn of the twentieth century. We no longer have standards in math, reading, and writing skills. We graduate idiots.

We already have women in the combat arms that have absolutely no business there. There are fitness standards for males, and separate fitness standards for women. NO, NO, NO. Standards are standards. If I get wounded and have to be dragged to safety, is sugar-pants going to have the upper body strength and stamina to haul off me and my weapon?

If I serve in combat, I don't want any gays around me. I would tell every swinging . . person in the outfit, that if I get wounded and somehow need mouth to mouth, and I find out you're gay, pray I die, because I'll kill your nastyass if I survive. I don't want his mouth anywhere in the vicinity of me.

We may have served with one or two, but if they did, no one in the unit knew anything about it.

Just another source of lowering standards, by allowing a group of swishy-tailed confused people to serve where they often are not wanted.

If they want to serve in the signal corps, data processing, intelligence, or areas outside the combat arms, I have zero problem with it.

But not in the combat arms.

Again, I go back to the issue of “telling” vs “not telling” .
This seems to be the stickler for a lot of you. You admit that if you did not know and things were OK in the course of battle, well that was OK.
Actually this world operates a lot on that principle. Lets just “pretend” that its this way, and everyone will be happy.
Those of you who are so anti-gay want to “pretend” that nobody knows about the intimate stuff that happens sometimes between “straight” guys stuck out on a mission with no access to women. Basically, it OK to do it as long as everyone pretends it didn't happen.
Well, forget it guys, because everyone knows it happens, and nobody cares.

From listening to you, you would think that the most significant aspect of your security while in theater is whether or not some guy is checking you out in the shower; while all the military skill he has and dedication he has, and patriotism he has, counts for nothing.
Really! I don't believe that for a minute. You just want to keep on pretending the world is one way, when in reality it is another.

But that's OK. That makes you pretty normal, sadly enough.

Fact is, lots of gay men and women have served well on the front lines; whether you knew it or not; whether you admit it or not; and if they were all open about it, that fact would not change.

3 of my best friends are gay, and all 3 got shot in Iraq and another in Afghanistan. The two in Iraq died. Any man, gay or straight willing to bleed for his nation should not be treated as anything less than a true American hero.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by projectvxn]

Ok, this always kind of bugs me. I dont particularly like being around gay men but I do respect them as human beings and dont actively or passively discriminate against them. I have worked around gay men, I worked for a moving company for a while and one of our main clients was a interior designer business and I can tell you this right now, there was no problms with those guys that were gay. They acted professionally, they were there to do their job.

I have always heard these comments about how gays might be distracting and most likey can't man-up in a combat situation. To those that think this way, what you fail to realise is that not all gay men are "ewww i got dirt under my fingernails/eeek a bug...kill it killl it!" type of gay men. These ultra femmy guys most likely wouldnt even make it past the first day of B.T. There are on the other hand very masculine gay men, these men walk amongst you in your daily life and you would never know they are gay unless they were to tell you. I always hear men in the military talking about how they think gay men would be staring at their butts and hitting on them in the foxholes. Personally I would think they would probably thinking about how to stay alive and about getting home in one piece like every other man in their situation and not so much about raping every sleeping man in the army like like it was somekind of fantasy prison playland.

To you military men that dont like gays. When you go and fight for Freedom...what are the requiements now days to qualify for that freedom? Freedom for all as long as you were born in America and not gay...burn the gays, is that about right? Personally, I enjoy the idea for freedom for all 6+billion souls stuck on this miserable planet.



To all soldiers of Freedom that discriminate,

.YOU FAIL!

[edit on 15/1/09 by Pfeil]

Originally posted by wayno
You admit that if you did not know and things were OK in the course of battle, well that was OK.

That's the part I don't understand. Most people in the military have served with gay people, whether or not they know it. So, the guy a few beds down was gay. No one knew about it because he wasn't permitted to reveal it, but it was a fact all the same. They showered together, trained together, fought on the front lines together and everything was fine. Because no one had that little piece of information that he was gay.

What this boils down to is that people who support "Don't Ask Don't Tell" want to be protected from that little insignificant piece of information. They want protection! They DON'T WANT THE TRUTH. Why? They can't deal with the truth? What kind of people can't handle knowing the truth? Delicate people. Children. Certainly not the men and women who are serving their country. They're supposed to be heroes. They are supposed to fight for the freedom and rights of their fellow countrymen. How can they do that if they prefer to live in denial?