Hammas hiding vs Israel attacking

If you read anything I write you will know where I stand with HAMMAS vs. Israel.

This post is about tactics.

Hamas hides in civilian areas...

News Analysis: Warring parties in Gaza employ new tactics

She noted that Hamas' strategy is to use a civilian shield to deter the Israeli response and benefit from international pressure on Israel for any civilian casualties

Israel is hitting these areas where civilians are...

Since the beginning of the military operation in the Gaza Strip, on 27 December 2008, the army has bombed dozens of houses, public buildings, and other structures throughout the Gaza Strip.

Who is right and who is wrong?

The Geneva convention is clear about intentional attacks on civilians and the only one CLEARLY attcaking civilians is Hamas. Please Hamas supporters hold your water and let me get through this. No one in Israel says they are INTENTIONALLY attacking civilians, Hamas fires rockets HOPING to hit civilians. You might think Israel is but unless you see a memo stay quiet for now.



I will state my opinion. Intentional attacks on civilans is wrong. Period. BUT...If these civilians are in the way of weapons/soldiers that are harming your "side" what do you do now?

These civilians are either willing( like the "human shields" before the 2nd gulf war) or unwilling ( Held on the roof of a home holding a bomb factory.)

Does that make a difference?

I make the statement that it is a legitimate target if the parts to the equation are there...
1. The civilians are protecting a weapon of mass destruction.
2. The civilians are willing participants and are protecting a weapons/combatant area.
3. The target is valuable enough to justify the lose of life. ( A VIP for the enemy that could decide the war;General/Civilian leadership/Command Control.)

I hope this starts a good conversation. Your thoughts?

so Hamas is hiding in hospitals and businesses?

why aren't the Media allowed there?

why did Israel stop medical aid?

why is Gaza a concentration camp?

what would all the above i mentioned do?
a. Find and Kill Hamas
OR
b. Further their zionist agenda


hmmmmm..................

Human shields have a death wish. When people are not fanatically brainwashed they run for the hills instinctively. In the case of the hollywood shields, their self centered importance overcomes their natural survival instincts. I say bombs away.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
so Hamas is hiding in hospitals and businesses?

why aren't the Media allowed there?

why did Israel stop medical aid?

why is Gaza a concentration camp?

what would all the above i mentioned do?
a. Find and Kill Hamas
OR
b. Further their zionist agenda


hmmmmm..................

You are not even close to furthering this coversation but thanks.

Hamas is hiding in civilian areas so lets move on 'k?

The question is "When is it ok to actually attack civilians?"

disappointing that no one wants to discuss attcaking civilians.

Originally posted by crmanager

You are not even close to furthering this coversation but thanks.

Hamas is hiding in civilian areas so lets move on 'k?

The question is "When is it ok to actually attack civilians?"

I don't know if you have seen the pictures, but there is a big wall around Gaza,
here is a reminder of what it looks like


now lets imagine that these people have nowhere to go because the gates are closed, the area of Gaza is 360 km2 or 139 sq miles, a population of 1.5 million.

now have a look at google earth and see how densly populated the area is compared to Israel, Israel has plenty of areas to hide troops or weapons that could easily hit any town in Gaza, they can even get them from the sea.

When you round up people and place them in close proximity of each other, it leaves nowhere to hide except in the cities.
Palestine do not have a recognized army, they are a bunch of people fighting for their home, Yes I know "so is Israel"

There is no excuse at all in this situation to kill any civillians, or any conflict, we know the military has the capability of destroying Hamas rockets before they get anywhere near an Israeli town.

They already closed off the aid in to teach them a lesson, unfortunately just like the half million innocent children that died as a direct result of sanctions against the Iraqi goverment so where the Palestinians.

The best way to solve any of this crisis would be like the days of old, and have the leaders lead from the front, I bet the cowards would think twice about war then if they had to lead the charge.

So about the question "when is it acceptable for civillian casualties in war?"

the answer is never, the civillians are innocent bystanders in a conflict between polititions.

Even if the "civilians" are willing "human Shields?"

I disagree.



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[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 15-1-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by crmanager

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
so Hamas is hiding in hospitals and businesses?

why aren't the Media allowed there?

why did Israel stop medical aid?

why is Gaza a concentration camp?

what would all the above i mentioned do?
a. Find and Kill Hamas
OR
b. Further their zionist agenda


hmmmmm..................

You are not even close to furthering this coversation but thanks.

Hamas is hiding in civilian areas so lets move on 'k?

The question is "When is it ok to actually attack civilians?"

Do you even know what a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION is?

Is you stated this in your first post, and you go on about citizens protecting Hamas or Hamas using them as shields and yet you don't even understand the very basics of WDM, the Geneva Convention or International Law.

It is NEVER acceptable to attack civilians, even if they are assumed to be being used as a shield!

There is not a debate about this under international law. There is no area of "what if...".
A mighty military power is killing hundreds of civilians, and using the excuse of them "being in the way". That is not acceptable under any circumstance.

I seriously do not get why it is so hard for people to understand these very basic facts of warfare.

Give it up already, you and I know that Israel is murdering hundreds of people and using Hamas as an excuse.
And America is supporting them.

Though why so many people on these boards seem to support Israel, while ignoring evidence, avoiding the facts, and spreading the Israeli BS is beyond me.

No intelligent person can excuse Israel in their indiscriminate action against the PEOPLE of Gaza.

reply to post by crmanager



Heah nobody wants to discuss Hamas rocketing civillians. Nobody wants to talk about Hamas putting civillins directly in the line of fire either. Instead they say Hamas is justified for rocketing Isreal and Isreal is purposely targeting civilians, which any honest human knows is the exact opposite of the truth.

Buddy...take a breath.

This is a "what if" conversation. I asked you pro-palestinians to keep your emotions in check for this conversation.

Would you consider it a viable option to attack civilians under any circumstances? I put mine up.

reply to post by munkey66


I don't feel like walking a slippery slope this morning but why doesn't Egypt step in to allow Palestinian refugees in. Let the civilians flee and leave the cowardly Hamas fighters to fend for themselves. It is not just Israel restricting the movement here.

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by munkey66

 

I don't feel like walking a slippery slope this morning but why doesn't Egypt step in to allow Palestinian refugees in. Let the civilians flee and leave the cowardly Hamas fighters to fend for themselves. It is not just Israel restricting the movement here.

Thank you. NO ONE is willing to discuss Egypts closed Gaza border.

reply to post by crmanager

The question is "When is it ok to actually attack civilians?"

It is never really ok to kill civilians. Of course if you are nazi like, you will create all the reasons on heaven and Earth to allow you to kill civilians.

There is a new movie coming out called 'Defiance' about a group of Polish Jews who hide in villages and the forests during WW2. Daniel Craig stars in it and I think it will be a heck of a film. It is a true story about a Jews that escaped the clutches of the nazi dirt bags. They took the battle to the Nazis, bombed them, ambushed and shot them, helped other Jews escape and took care of hundreds of Jewish victims in the forests.

The Nazis call them terrorists and bandits. Every time the Daniel Craig character organised a strike and killed the enemy, the Nazis would surround a village, kill all the civilians and burn it down. Civilians would be rounded up by the Nazis and forced to say where they thought the terrorists where hiding.

By your measure terrorism, the resistance and defence of the Polish Jewish partisans was terrorism because they wore no uniforms, hid in villages and forests and ambushed the invaders.

www.movies.com...

Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by crmanager

 

The question is "When is it ok to actually attack civilians?"

It is never really ok to kill civilians. Of course if you are nazi like, you will create all the reasons on heaven and Earth to allow you to kill civilians.

There is a new movie coming out called 'Defiance' about a group of Polish Jews who hide in villages and the forests during WW2. Daniel Craig stars in it and I think it will be a heck of a film. It is a true story about a Jews that escaped the clutches of the nazi dirt bags. They took the battle to the Nazis, bombed them, ambushed and shot them, helped other Jews escape and took care of hundreds of Jewish victims in the forests.

The Nazis call them terrorists and bandits. Every time the Daniel Craig character organised a strike and killed the enemy, the Nazis would surround a village, kill all the civilians and burn it down. Civilians would be rounded up by the Nazis and forced to say where they thought the terrorists where hiding.

By your measure terrorism, the resistance and defence of the Polish Jewish partisans was terrorism because they wore no uniforms, hid in villages and forests and ambushed the invaders.

www.movies.com...

You just can't speak without injecting emotion in it can you?

Compairing WWII Jewish resistance to to day is quite frankly dumb.

This is HYPOTHETICAL for today. Let's pick an analogy you can understand...

Israel is about to launch a biological attack on Gaza and Iran figures out exactly what building it is in. Israel put CIVILIANS on the roof and throughout the building.

Does Iran have the right to attack these civilians killing 20 to save hundreds or thousands?

Does that get through your one track skull?

Originally posted by SectionEight
Human shields have a death wish. When people are not fanatically brainwashed they run for the hills instinctively. In the case of the hollywood shields, their self centered importance overcomes their natural survival instincts. I say bombs away.

You know I've been reading post after post and I try not to get to involved: 1)because I'm not gonna change anyones mind 2) because its a useless waste of energy to attempt it since I cant do anything to help the people of Gaza anyway. Israel is going to do whatever they want and no-one is going to stop them.

But I see your posts and I tolerate it, I figure, "well he is entitled to his opinion." But you should either say something logical or not say anything at all. After reading this post I've come to the conclusion that you are either just trolling or you're border-line retarded. What is wrong with you? Tell me where the people of Gaza can go? Please... Have you been to Gaza? I'm not saying I have, but you say "they should run to the hills" like its simple to do so in the most crowded place on earth. To their rear they have the Mediterranean, to the front the IDF, and to the other side Egypt that wont let them in. Tell me please where exactly they could go, and more importantly why should they?

To the OP, from a military standpoint, does it make a difference if the civilians are innocent or not? I mean lets be honest what (powerful) military in the world doesn't do whatever they want? If war was fair no-one would win. War is unfair... always, in the past and right now. Israel is being unfair, of course they are they want to win.

Originally posted by 3vilscript

Originally posted by SectionEight
Human shields have a death wish. When people are not fanatically brainwashed they run for the hills instinctively. In the case of the hollywood shields, their self centered importance overcomes their natural survival instincts. I say bombs away.

You know I've been reading post after post and I try not to get to involved: 1)because I'm not gonna change anyones mind 2) because its a useless waste of energy to attempt it since I cant do anything to help the people of Gaza anyway. Israel is going to do whatever they want and no-one is going to stop them.

But I see your posts and I tolerate it, I figure, "well he is entitled to his opinion." But you should either say something logical or not say anything at all. After reading this post I've come to the conclusion that you are either just trolling or you're border-line retarded. What is wrong with you? Tell me where the people of Gaza can go? Please... Have you been to Gaza? I'm not saying I have, but you say "they should run to the hills" like its simple to do so in the most crowded place on earth. To their rear they have the Mediterranean, to the front the IDF, and to the other side Egypt that wont let them in. Tell me please where exactly they could go, and more importantly why should they?

To the OP, from a military standpoint, does it make a difference if the civilians are innocent or not? I mean lets be honest what (powerful) military in the world doesn't do whatever they want? If war was fair no-one would win. War is unfair... always, in the past and right now. Israel is being unfair, of course they are they want to win.

An honest answer. Thank you.

I am asking if anyone would change their mind "Kill a few to save thousands" like US did in Hiroshima or "Never kill civilians. Period. I don't care if thousands die. We must keep the high road."

This is HYPOTHETICAL for today. Let's pick an analogy you can understand...

Israel is about to launch a biological attack on Gaza and Iran figures out exactly what building it is in. Israel put CIVILIANS on the roof and throughout the building.

Does Iran have the right to attack these civilians killing 20 to save hundreds or thousands?

Does that get through your one track skull?

crmanager

You just dont get it do you?

Are you really that thick?

The only way this is ever going to be logically resolved (without emotion) is to break up israel and put things back to how they were or using your ideology, nuke israel with all its civillians in it so that the worlds peaceful folk can get back to a peacefulol co-existance.

No emotional content

[edit on 15-1-2009 by cropmuncher]

[edit on 15-1-2009 by cropmuncher]

Originally posted by crmanager

Originally posted by 3vilscript

Originally posted by SectionEight

I don't care if thousands die. We must keep the high road."

Yeh keep the 'high road' until israel flattens everything from Nile to Eupharates according to the Holy scriptures of the blessed torah given by the almighty G--D to the Chosen People of the holy (illegaly occupied) land.

reply to post by 3vilscript


An exodus to their basements instead of the rooftops and sidewlks protecting HAMAS would be a good start. If even 10% of the 1.4 million took their guns and pointed them at HAMAS the conflict would end and the people would be saved. It is hard to believe the total population can be all fanatical islamists, athough a huge percentage has been conditioned that way compared to other population centers.
Being a willing human shield is only natural when protecting your child, but these people are acting out against human nature by putting their children in harms way. Hard to feel sympathetic towards that behavior.

An honest answer. Thank you.

I am asking if anyone would change their mind "Kill a few to save thousands" like US did in Hiroshima or "Never kill civilians. Period. I don't care if thousands die. We must keep the high road."

What the US did in Hiroshima was a crime in a moral sense. Morally nothing justifies the taking of an innocent life, nothing. If I were a military commander and I was given the choice to sacrifice hundreds for the sake of thousands I would do it without blinking. It would be like drawing the short straw in the movie Armageddon. But I think anyone that makes this type of decision should be punished accordingly. There is no room for patriots in a civilized society, because patriots are nothing more than terrorists in the eyes of their enemy. They don't all fight with the right reasons in mind, but they believe their reasons to be right never-the-less.

Do I believe that the Israeli government deserves some sort of punishment from the world after this is over? Blindly. But I also think HAMAS should be dealt with accordingly.

Do you know that the Palestinian people voted HAMAS in because HAMAS was originally pretty good to them. They built schools and hospitals in a place where few would be able to cope. I'm sure HAMAS did all of this with selfish ends but the people were happy to see their children go to school, in a sense, they felt like they owed them. This gives Israel no right, or any of you, to say that the people deserve punishment for the actions of HAMAS. Special forces exist for a reason. HAMAS can be removed by a professional military without so much collateral damage. This is were I have a problem.