We just saw in Live cam... Deadly crime!!!

reply to post by greeneyedleo

---

In this "war", there is no international or free press, observers aloud to go inside Gaza... That made my own opinion making difficult at the beginning of this operation... Its also against international laws.

I do watch both sides - also remembering historical views, and possible distortions in it - I follow carefully all sides to learn their views... Then I educate my self with 3rd party, and opinions by opposition members, and try dont to forget study what international organizations has to say... Or also independent conspiracy study groups... After collected all the information available,

Then I use my own head, and follow the voice of my own heart.

reply to post by SectionEight

---

The Times UK reports:

reply to post by jerico65

---

Since Israel won't let 3rd party news reporters in, I guess we really don't know for sure about any reports, one way or the other, will we? Even the US allowed reporters in when they invaded Iraq.

They don't allow reporters in because they learned in the past that they are just there for sensationalism. Isreal got burnt many times with overestimated death tolls, false accusations of wrongfull engagements. By the time the facts are sorted out the damage was already done and aid and comfort to the enemy was given.

Dark, nighttime, at a distance... I saw shooting, perhaps it was WPs, but it's all a bit irrelevant to my position:

The title of this thread was misleading, the OP was misleading, and the attempts to make the US out as the aggressor somehow are ludicrous. There is no way to know exactly what was going down, no way to see who was the aggressor even, and Israel is not the 51st state.

Amazingly, it seems to me that most of those who are now screaming how the US should interfere to stop Israel are those who also don't want us in the Middle east at all.

It's war. War is hell. This is not our war, and not our hell. They wanna fight, let 'em fight.

Gah, I expect better at ATS...

TheRedneck

Geez, that was a mistake. Remember the Geraldo "map in the sand" incident? The 101st Airborne should have broken his legs and left him in the desert for dead.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

---

Even USA gave 48 hours to population leave Fallujah, before they destroy it...

BTW, do you see how brainwashed people really are... They are repeating same old, same old, from day one to the last, no matter what happens in the way... Why dont they educate them self - but defends some opinions what they have had long time before...

Like a guy who they knew in school, and they get opinion that he was ok. Then after few years that guy murder his best friend, and his wife, causing terrible disaster around him... "No, no, no... he really is a good guy, I know him before!" ... You see my point?

Just wondering... Life is always changing, why its so difficult for some to change with it?

reply to post by JanusFIN

---

Yes, unfortunately, this conflict has all of the same elements of the American election. The partisanship is as thick and heavy as the smoke over Gaza. The real crime is that there a many innocent civilians being killed, on both sides.
I do think, though, that American politicians have not done America any service by being so one-sided on this issue. Both sides have enough guilt to go around.
Unlike, I suspect, some of the posters here, I spent considerable time in the middle east, and lived with Muslims during that time. The vast majority of them are wonderful people, who do not approve of terrorism. As a Christian, I was treated with respect. The vast majority of people in the Muslim world want just what we want, the ability to live their lives in peace, and peace and health for their children. I had several discussions with them on suicide bombings, and they, to the last person, stressed that sending their children out with bombs attached to them was outrageous, and a despicable act.


BTW, Janus, I think many of them get their "talking points" from the US MSM, which tells people what to say. I specifically exclude TheRednecks remarks, though. When he speaks, people should listen.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by ProfEmeritus]

reply to post by TheRedneck

---

US is highly involved, directly and indirectly... Oh gosh!

- US troops are securing Gaza border
- US weapons are used
- US policymakers back ups operation
- US peoples are funding the war
- US president is following Israels orders
- Tens of US politicians have double nationality

... I just call it USrael these days. And I am not misleading this thread, just answering your questions, giving my opinions. Crime is already done, and I just witness that my self. Its done, and we cant get those people back alive, or fix those burned and destroyed homes... So what you expect?

reply to post by JanusFIN

---

I hadn't heard about US troops on the Gaza border. If this is true, things are going to get very ugly from here on out, for everybody.

reply to post by Someone336

---

I hadn't either. What is the source for that information, Janus, do you know?

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

---

This is all I've been able to find:



tenpercent.wordpress.com...

Oh, and here:

www.ynetnews.com...

[edit on 14-1-2009 by Someone336]

reply to post by JanusFIN

Got a source? I haven't heard of that, and if it is so, I will condemn our involvement.

Nope, Israeli weapons are used, which happened to be purchased from the US. If I have a wreck, I don't blame GM for making the car.

So? We're allowed to have opinions, but that is a far cry from interference.

Gonna need a source on that one too.

Last I heard, Bushy-boy told Israel not to bomb Iran into the ice age. Sounds like Israel followed his orders then.

I repeat, Israel is not the 51st state. They do as they choose.

The US is made up of dual-citizenship peoples from all countries, There's a very nice Indian family who runs a gas station around here. I buy a lot of gas from them. Does that mean I support anything India does?


The first quoted statement explains your bias more than I ever could. Thank you very much for hating me and my country.

You are correct in one thing: this was your opinion. As I stated before, the video was dark and at a distance. I could see and hear shooting from what did sound like tanks, but that was about it. You stated you witnessed this on the webcam (which I have been watching on and off as well, btw), so you saw the same thing I did in the clip which was posted. You have declared a wartime act under cover of night, from the view of a distant web-cam, to be a war crime.

I state again, I expect better from ATS. Now if you will excuse me, I have no doubt that lives were lost tonight, and I must go mourn them. I do so in the apparent custom of the Palestinian people, as I witnessed on 9-12-2001 as they mourned our loss.

I will be outside dancing in the streets.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

---

Yep, my time to end this session, and I gladly do that with you.

Thanks from the good and honest words, those gave me better spirit... My self I have just visited Middle-East in airports, seen and met those peoples in some holiday places... I have nothing bad to say from "Arabs", nor I feel any need to defend them either - I see them as people I am.

Suicidal missions has always been part of warfare. Most of the known heroes has died in different kind of suicidal missions - Arabs has no privilege to own that honored status and warriors way to die. Propaganda uses those myths effectively in their brainwash agendas, and forgets historical reality of human wartime behavior.

When you drive rat to the corner, it tries to bite you. With humans its the same, and Israelis didnt give any holes to Gazans to escape. We are not in the position, that we can decide what strategy they should use against their enemy, but of course I see innocent victims equal in both sides.

So why Israel doesnt defend their civilians? I condemn Israel military leaders, as I do Hamas rocketeers from civilian casualties in Israel. Why they let rockets to fall to their cities - and keeps feeding up that false propaganda with life of innocents, letting them live in continuous fear?

I have study weaponry, and for over decade there has been all weapons to counter these attacks... Why they dont use that weaponry suddenly at all - or raise the amount of these Anti-Rocket installations?

And even Palestinians and Hezbollah support this truth to come out... By not shooting rockets anywhere else, but just small part of Gaza, always to same few locations. There is still no efforts done to block this threat, or spread the truth about "war on rockets" .... How long does it take that this obvious question breaks out to western media?

I just wonder before I go sleep - And hope I didnt witness any childrens death tonight.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

---

US-funded program fails to stop tunnel smuggling
www.google.com...

Report: US officers deployed along Egypt-Rafah border
www.ynetnews.com...

reply to post by noangels

---

And raising children to be 'martyrs' isn't? Making children show's that teach the greatness of blowing yourself up as a martyr for Allah isn't barbaric? It is a crime, a robbing of innocence of these children. The real victims are the children that are brain washed and grow up to attack Israel.

reply to post by JanusFIN

---

I hope you didn't also. I detest war in all forms. Mankind needs to find a better way to settle differences. Peace.

reply to post by JanusFIN

As promised, I hereby condemn the actions of the USA in regards to any military personnel on the Gaza-Egyptian border. We do not have a dog in this race.

I will also share your hope that no innocent children met an untimely death tonight... or any night. No sarcasm this time.

TheRedneck

That's a big stretch from "US troops securing the Gaza border!!!" that you claimed.

Those are Engineer officers working on that tunnel problem; it's not like the 1st Cav is patrolling the border.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by jerico65]

reply to post by TheRedneck

---

US peoples are funding the war

US-Israeli partnership
www.bworldonline.com...

End U.S. Military Aid to Israel!
www.socialistalternative.org...

US president is following Israels orders
www.presstv.ir...

You have declared a wartime act under cover of night, from the view of a distant web-cam, to be a war crime.

- Using artillery projectiles against Urban unevacuated are is war crime.
- Using WP ammunitions is war crime.
- Using surpressing tankfire in highly populated area with multiple units, without making no status check from targets is war crime.

That we all can see from video send also to Youtube.