Ejected from Cafe for being Israeli

Originally posted by kid_of_3NKi
No, by all means its not the other way around!!!
Why do you think you are being asked to vote for a new gov every 4 years?

Because "they" have to maintain like there is a "democracy"
Perhaps i don't want Labour/Tories/Lib dems??
What then... what choice do i "really" have?

Why do we supposedly have "democracy"?

To appease the people.
Let them think they have a choice, while really choosing for them.

You are a individual and a part of the whole at the same time. You form your nation in the same way a atom forms a piece of matter in joint of billions other atoms!

I am made of atoms...

I just happened to be born in England, wasn't a choice and i certainly don't feel i have a say in "my" country.
Atoms are all equal and play similar roles... people do not and are not.

Sorry, you don't seem to understand or accept the way creation has been designed and how it works.

Well, while we have such an outstanding mind as yours among us... perhaps you could enlighten me?
I mean... you clearly have a full understanding of how people and countries are one and how they work...I'm all ears.....

Originally posted by blupblup
Well, while we have such an outstanding mind as yours among us... perhaps you could enlighten me?
I mean... you clearly have a full understanding of how people and countries are one and how they work...I'm all ears.....

Well, if you are all ears, then open your ears and your eyes widely and you might realize for yourself!

Ko3

reply to post by detachedindividual


I'm wondering who isn't being the adult there.

I hear what you say about those two women being adults...indeed I wouldn't wish to grace that cafe with any patronage if I was them and that was the way the owner saw fit to treat me. That cafe would certainly not be getting any of my money across their counter.

However...how is it an 'adult' thing to allow the Cafe owner to breach our Human Rights legislation through his 'stand'? How is it an adult thing to simply accept those actions?

Rather I see an 'adult' thing would be for the Cafe owner to act like an adult and NOT act in such a way...

Though I certainly see the point within your reply that perhaps a more positive outcome from this whole thing would be if they did something like you suggest - went back to him and offered the hand of peace, acknowledged what he was hoping to achieve, and perhaps shown him through their approach that they are just ordinary people who happen to have Israeli heritage...perhaps that would have effected a more positive change that going to the newspapers about it.


Cheers.



[edit on 14-1-2009 by alien]

reply to post by kid_of_3NKi


As i thought... nothing to say.

The way creation works... has WHAT to do with individuals and countries??
I'm sorry but you've lost me...


It's late and i'm off to bed.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Why do you assume there's no thought behind it?

My bad. Wrong words. I meant no real information(research) behind it.

I was slightly pressed for time. I've got a tea break, so I'll elaborate.

First, I'll point out the following: Nearly all Israelis - with the exception of a few orthodox religious groups - do mandatory military service. After their time served, they will remain on inactive duty - on call, should the need arise - until they reach a certain age. Similar to the USA in that regard. Even after discharge, and after the terms of service is completed, they are still soldiers, should the need arise.

Second, all Israelis have the vote.

The Israeli government (elected by the above) and the Israeli military (staffed by the above) have been engaged in collective punishment of all Palestinians for decades, on the grounds that the leadership and citizenship of Palestine are one and the same. The latter is responsible for the former, the former for the latter. This policy goes back decades.

This policy has been carried out despite the continuing opposition of every world body with an opinion on the matter. Most recently, the UNSC - which was dismissed by the duly elected and popular government as being irrelevant. The UNHRC had a similar stance - and here I will admit that some of my current feelings stems from the reaction of your government (can barely bring myself to admit that it's mine as well) - the ONLY nation to outright vote against the statement of opposition to the Gaza operations. Did not even have the decency to abstain. Utterly, utterly shameful.

So what's a Canadian boy to do, eh?

A cafe owner refuses to serve a couple of Israelis. Shows them the smallest part of the smallest part of the incredible discourtesy that Israelis have shown the population of Palestine for decades, and the smallest part of the scorn that Israel has shown the rest of the world as well, and it's headline news.

Oh, noes! The poor Israelis couldn't have a sammich. Why should I care? Why should anyone?

I, for one, applaud this cafe owner. Maybe if more people did that, they'd start voting in governments that are less hell-bent on genocide and more in tune with the rest of the world. Perhaps they'll take a bit less time to shake down pregnant women when they man the checkpoints. Perhaps they'll question orders next time they're told to bulldoze an Palestinian olive grove. Perhaps they'll decide that opening fire on a handful of kids throwing rocks at them is not the right thing to do.

Perhaps not. Probably not.

Either way, I certainly wouldn't serve them breakfast.

reply to post by vox2442


Fantastic comment Very incisive and honest.

Thank you.

reply to post by alien


Speaking as Kiwi I respect people right to peacefully protest but there should no room for discrimination in New Zealand . Given that the sisters weren't being rowdy or making trouble this does appear to be a case of blatant discrimination. So I hope that the Human Rights Commission makes an example out of the business owner . I always found the people of the deep south to be warm and friendly which would have contributed to some of the surprise at this incident .

As a country of four million people we all have to get a long despite our differences . So if the people who to this country to for a new life cant accept this they can get out .

reply to post by vox2442


Hmmm, nearly all Israelis do mandatory military service....

Now lets do a quick fact check. In 2007 nearly 28%, that is more than 1/5 of the population of Israel (only men), avoided the mandatory military service.

www.haaretz.com...

Also, another article showing that the mandatory service is becoming less popular among the youth

www.azstarnet.com...

reply to post by vox2442


Thx for that post vox2442, exactly my point!

Ko3

He is in his full right to not want to serve those israelians, and funny this should come up here, we had a discussion some month ago basicly the same theme. That was the thread about the family who was denied to buy a birthday cake for their 3 years old suns birthday, because the bakery would not write "Happy birthday Adolf Hitler" on it, and at that time A LOT of Jewish people reponded "that ofcourse it was ok, the owners of the shop could decide who they wanted to serve" suddenly the subject seems to spin around 180 degree and now its not ok......

Double standards are good....

Give the shop owner a pad on the shoulder for standing up, and remember you can also help out by not buying products with start numbers in barcode: 729xxxxxxx

Best regards.

Loke.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by Loke.]

reply to post by xpert11


Cheers fellow Kiwi...appreciate your input.

Like you I've also found the South Island to have been warm and welcoming - despite numerous people having told me the usual "Its all full of racist rednecks" blah blah blah...didn't see that much at all when travelling around the South.

And to perhaps chime in on a question that has been asked: Why should anyone really care that two women didn't get served - in the wider scheme of things?

Well...to answer - and granted probably not a very good or informed one: I care because its MY country this has happened in.
I care what happens within it, on this land...this soil...for it is mine, my blood, bones and spirit are Aotearoa/NZ...

We do have a checkered history here in this country. Much fighting over land, much blood over race. We still have our issues no doubt...so I for one care when such things happen here...be they a refusal of service or a storming of a village...

My people have been down that road...they/we're still recovering from it...so really I'd rather not see such actions in anyway heading there again.

Thats not to overdramatise anything, just saying that even the largest most repugnant of actions likely had many smaller seemingly innocuous roots...

...lets not grow another seed of hatred...not in this country...

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Yes.

May as well extend them the same courtesy they extend the Palestinians.

Gotcha. You just hate on Israelis without thought. Just checking. You DO know that this is the attitude that keeps this crap going, right?

Not very much objectiv behaviour of an administrator i must say, in my opinion you gotta stay clear of such remarks.

Best regards.

Loke.

Originally posted by Loke.
He is in his full right to not want to serve those israelians...

Really?

I'll have to double-check what the Human Rights legislation is within this country - as I'm pretty certain it doesn't extend any Right to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity - as was mentioned in the reference article.

I'm pretty sure it says quite the opposite.

Originally posted by alien

Originally posted by Loke.
He is in his full right to not want to serve those israelians...

Really?

I'll have to double-check what the Human Rights legislation is within this country - as I'm pretty certain it doesn't extend any Right to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity - as was mentioned in the reference article.

I'm pretty sure it says quite the opposite.

Do people in NZ have the right to boycott products?

For example, if you decided to stop buying Israeli goods, would you run afoul of the Race relations laws? Seriously, educate me on this, 'cause I'm unfamiliar with the laws.

If that's legal, why would the action of this cafe owner be any different? He doesn't want to take money from the Israeli customers. That's not substantially different from a boycott.

Originally posted by alien

Originally posted by Loke.
He is in his full right to not want to serve those israelians...

Really?

I'll have to double-check what the Human Rights legislation is within this country - as I'm pretty certain it doesn't extend any Right to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity - as was mentioned in the reference article.

I'm pretty sure it says quite the opposite.

I should maybe a bit more clarified there, i ment I THINK he has full right to serve who he wants to, and especially in this situation. I ask you to please look backward for the thread i mentioned also and see the replies there. It is the same thing.

And to be honest i can not really use Human Rights to anything unless they starts to pull out some heavy artillary towards israels invasion of Gaza.

There is gonna be a lot more of these incidents around the globe, so if people are getting upset over 2 israelians getting rejected buying some sandwiches, the future will bring a HUGE drama with the situations we are gonna see there.

I think actually that Human Rights legislations also says somewhere that no civilians mey be harmed in "war" thats also happening and Human rights are not doing anything against that, so why should some 2 ladies who could not get served a sandwich because they came from a country who do not give a damn about Geneva convention be so awefull, when the same country in question has already killed over 400 woman and children.

Sorry those to ladies just don't get my sympathy, but the Palestinian people have my full support.

Best regards.

Loke.

reply to post by vox2442


Very interesting question.

I suppose it may come down to whether or not the person openly admits "I'm not buying anything from you because you're X, Y, Z".

Perhaps this Cafe owner may have merely been remiss to have actually said it aloud??

The New Zealand Race Relations Commissioner, Joris de Bres, has spoken regarding this event in another news article: HERE

Mr de Bres said the Human Rights Act prohibited discrimination in the provision of goods and services on the grounds of ethnic or national origin, or of political opinion.

"Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation in Palestine, it is simply against the law for providers of goods and services in New Zealand to discriminate in this way," he said.

I've also just spoken with one of the Human Rights Commission lawyers attached to my workplace (I work for a large Health/Hospital Provider, so yeah, we tend to need them on speed-dial sometimes).
After my prior reply I thought it wise to double-check to be sure I was on the right track.
Gave them a call to see if there was anything within the Human Rights Act/legislation that does allow for any refusal of service based on ethnicity.

Clear answer was no. And reiterated essentially what Commissioner de Bres was quoted as saying.

I'm wondering if however that legislation is more focussed upon the service/good supplier rather than consumer.
In which case yeah, it seems a little bit hypocritical that you can't refuse goods/services based on Ethnicity/religion/gender etc...but I'm unsure if there are any similar legislative decrees regarding refusing to purchase based on the same discriminatory criteria...

...will give the guy a call and check that too...


Cheers for your reply - very interesting question.

reply to post by alien


As a follow-up (this one has my mind working as well, but I have no human rights lawyers on my speed dial, only the maintenance department and the local soba shop)

You've been saying ethnicity, which the law specifies - and that may be a key point in this. Israeli would be a nationality, whereas Jewish (or Semitic, if you prefer) would be the ethnicity.

If he'd said: "I'm not serving you because you're Jewish" - that would seem to be the spirit and intent of the law, as I'm familiar with it.

Sying "Israeli" instead of "Jewish"... that makes a huge difference.

edit: or it could. I'm not sure. If I was a lawyer, I'd certainly argue it.



[edit on 14-1-2009 by vox2442]

reply to post by Loke.


Even thou the New Zealand Bill of Rights is weak its not Supreme Law never the less it still outlaws discrimination and rightfully so . At the risk of going off topic let me explain why no one should have the right to commit an act of discrimination . Now lets say there is a Maori activist called Mr X . Suffice to say it is very likely that I wouldn't be to fond of Mr X political views . Now there is a reasonable chance that I know Mr X thou three other people . So if I were to discriminate against Mr X I would alienate both him and the three other people I mentioned .

If this kind of discrimination was allowed to happen on a wider scale the country would tear itself a part . Besides if Mr X wants to peacefully protest against my beliefs I have just as much right to stand on the other side of the street and make myself heard .

he should have fed them imo

it would have sent a much better message

It's very asinine for the shop keeper to kick them out because of the conflict. Political views aside, had those people been killing the Gazan children, then I could understand, but they were in a cafe trying to order a drink, so the shop keeper was very small minded in his decision.