Ejected from Cafe for being Israeli, page 2

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reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:09 PM by vox2442

Originally posted by intrepid
And it's this type of stance that perpetuates the insanity. What did these women do to deserve this other than being born Israeli?

Serve in the IDF.

Two years is the mandatory minimum for women.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:09 PM by intrepid

reply to post by kid_of_3NKi

Check it man. Not all Israelis are Jewish and most Jews aren't Israelis.

Btw, what's the "Jewish" language that they shouldn't be speaking. I've never heard people speak "Jewish".

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:11 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442

Originally posted by intrepid
And it's this type of stance that perpetuates the insanity. What did these women do to deserve this other than being born Israeli?

Serve in the IDF.

Two years is the mandatory minimum for women.

It's 21 months actually. So you're saying that because they served a mandatory tour of duty that makes them a pariah to the world?

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:20 PM by vox2442

Originally posted by intrepid

It's 21 months actually. So you're saying that because they served a mandatory tour of duty that makes them a pariah to the world?

Yes.

If all Gaza can be punished indiscriminately by the IDF, then I see no reason why the same treatment should not be extended to it's veterans.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:23 PM by blupblup

Originally posted by kid_of_3NKi
[

Know what?

If I were a jew during these days i would be so deeply ashamed of my gov's killing actions that i wouldn't dare to talk jewish in public so ppl can recognise me as an Israeli.. and imo that would be an expected behavour!

Ko3

Why...?

Why should people judge other people on what their governments do?
And you would avoid talking to a specific group of people because of this also, and expect others to follow suit?

I'm sorry but i really do not follow your logic?

[edit on 14/1/09 by blupblup]

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:29 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Yes.

If all Gaza can be punished indiscriminately by the IDF, then I see no reason why the same treatment should not be extended to it's veterans.

Ah but what if they weren't in the IDF. There are exceptions to mandatory conscription. Such as attending higher education. Do you still think the same?

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:34 PM by vox2442

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Yes.

If all Gaza can be punished indiscriminately by the IDF, then I see no reason why the same treatment should not be extended to it's veterans.

Ah but what if they weren't in the IDF. There are exceptions to mandatory conscription. Such as attending higher education. Do you still think the same?

Yes.

May as well extend them the same courtesy they extend the Palestinians.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:36 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Yes.

May as well extend them the same courtesy they extend the Palestinians.

Gotcha. You just hate on Israelis without thought. Just checking. You DO know that this is the attitude that keeps this crap going, right?

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:43 PM by vox2442

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Yes.

May as well extend them the same courtesy they extend the Palestinians.

Gotcha. You just hate on Israelis without thought. Just checking. You DO know that this is the attitude that keeps this crap going, right?

Why do you assume there's no thought behind it?

Get off your high horse, mr. moderator.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:48 PM by Wildbob77

Just replace the term Israel with the word black and see how it sounds.

You could be protesting the outragous actions of the government of Zimbabwe.

It still comes across as racist.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:48 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by vox2442
Why do you assume there's no thought behind it?

My bad. Wrong words. I meant no real information(research) behind it.

Get off your high horse, mr. moderator.

What's "moderator" have to do with this? I can't post an informed opinion because I'm a staffer? That's the swan song for a failed debate.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:54 PM by masonwatcher

reply to post by intrepid

Ah but what if they weren't in the IDF. There are exceptions to mandatory conscription. Such as attending higher education. Do you still think the same?

Military service in Israel is conducted before higher education. In fact many Israelis living abroad travel back to Israel on their 18th birthday to do military service. That's not all, after the two years all soldiers return every year to serve for two to four years depending on civilian occupation or military speciality.

While at university, a couple of my Israeli passport holding classmates used to go to Israel to do a month military service every summer.

It is safe to assume that most able bodied adult Israelis are part time soldiers so I can sympathise with people objecting to Israelis coming onto their premises even though by our standards its wrong and unfair. The Gaza people are also being treated lethally unfairly.

I read that Olmert's popularity rating is increasing due to the Gaza onslaught and appears to have been forgiven for his financial indiscretions by the Israeli voter.

www.haaretz.com...

Olmert, too, has gotten a popularity boost, with a 33 percent popularity rating this week compared to an average of 14 percent since the Second Lebanon War, about two and a half years ago.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:04 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by masonwatcher
I read that Olmert's popularity rating is increasing due to the Gaza onslaught and appears to have been forgiven for his financial indiscretions by the Israeli voter.

www.haaretz.com...

Olmert, too, has gotten a popularity boost, with a 33 percent popularity rating this week compared to an average of 14 percent since the Second Lebanon War, about two and a half years ago.

Ouch, that could be damning if logic wasn't applied. I read all the stats in that article and it didn't have a majority in any catagory. Note your post there. 33%? What about the other 67%. Painting with a broad brush isn't helping. What about those that are opposed to this? They guilty too?

BTW, also from the source material:

Mrs Bennie said she did not disagree that Israel was committing crimes against children.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:17 PM by masonwatcher

reply to post by intrepid

Israel has a multiparty system with the majority of the knesset achieved at roughly 30 to 35%. The US is a two party state.

The key point is that Olmert was in the low teens in his ratings but achieved over thirty. The approvals he got was of the over all total that was shared by Ehud Barack and Livni who are also competing for the position of leader.

All three are from the Kadima party and in charge of the attack on Gaza. You will find the other 50%+ of approval with them. It is a three person horse race to be the next prime minister and the voters love them. In the end Kadima wins.

Over 80% of Israeli adults support the conflict. The rest are Arabs, people of conscience and some war veterans.

[edit on 063131p://pm3127 by masonwatcher]

[edit on 063131p://pm3137 by masonwatcher]

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:21 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by masonwatcher
Israel has a multiparty system with the majority of the knesset achieved at roughly 30 to 35%. The US is a two party state.

The key point is that Olmert was in the low teens in his ratings but achieved over thirty. The approvals he got was a share of the over all total that was shared by Ehud Barack and Livni who are also competing for the position of leader.

All three are from the Kadima party and in charge of the attack on Gaza. You will find the other 60%+ of approval with them. It is a three person horse race to be the next prime minister and the voters love them. In the end Kadima wins.

Back up info please(link). Btw, I'm not unfamiliar with a multiparty system. I'm Canadian, not American.

Over 80% of Israeli adults support the conflict. The rest are Arabs, people of conscience and some war veterans.

See above.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:21 PM by kid_of_3NKi

reply to post by blupblup

As an individual you are responsible for your country, just as you (and every other human being) are responsible for what human kind does on earth in the bigger picture! Every individual is part of the collective and thus IS responsible, whether you like to hear about that FACT or not!

Ko3

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:34 PM by blupblup

Originally posted by kid_of_3NKi
reply to post by blupblup

As an individual you are responsible for your country

I would have thought it was the other way round?
As an individual.... that is exactly what i am.. an individual... a human being, not a brit or a man or a singer or a whatever.. i am an individual.
I am not a representation of my country and my country is certainly not a representation of me!!

, just as you (and every other human being) are responsible for what human kind does on earth in the bigger picture!

Again, i do my bit... i really do.
And i agree if humankind could all cut out the hate and anger and division that has become so prevalent in our world... we would all be better off

Every individual is part of the collective and thus IS responsible, whether you like to hear about that FACT or not!

Ko3

That's great... so by your logic YOU are responsible for all wars that have passed, the state of the economy (currently), 9/11 and all other recent tragedies?

It's a nice idea you have, but not an entirely accurate one?

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:37 PM by Wehali

Great atrocities, especially when they are supported by most of the members
of the ethnic group that is committing them, will always breed negative feelings
in people for that ethnic group. It is just human nature, even the most kind
and peaceful individuals will feel dislike for the tyrant side.

Especially in this case, where there is absolutely no question about who carries
the vast majority of the guilt in a situation. Obviously, the economic embargo
put on Gaza, causing the starvation of thousands of innocent people, is the
cause of this inhuman situation. The firecrackers shot by Hamas, is just a,
rather weak on top, reaction to bring attention to the cruelty done to them.

If the majority of the jews in the world would stop supporting the almost
genocidal crimes of Israel, which is quite obviously not the case now, then the
dislike people all over the world are feeling for jews now, would not escalate to
such amounts. Even people who have never had a bad thought about jews in
their lives, are feeling the stings in their hearts.

Jews all over the world must come together and protest against the actions
of Israel. But what is happening in reality? Jews all over the world are
coming together and speak out their SUPPORT for the actions of Israel! Are
you then really so surprised the anti semetism is increasing everywhere?

If jews don't start massively protesting Israel's actions real soon now, then
they are willingly laying the foundations for a massive and long lasting wave
of world wide anti semetism, and it will be completely their own fault. Any
kind of sympathy people will have had for jews because of the holocaust will
be gone forever.

The holocaust was terrible, but for one thing, jews were only part of the
people targeted by the holocaust, many other groups were brutally swept
into destruction in the same way, and secondly, you cannot use the
holocaust as an excuse to create one yourself, which is exactly what Israel
is doing in Gaza, supported worldwide by jew communities.

[edit on (14/1/09) by Wehali]

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 06:37 PM by masonwatcher

reply to post by intrepid

Multiparty system definition;

A multi-party system is a system in which three or more political parties have the capacity to gain control of government separately or in coalition. Unlike a single-party system (or a non-partisan democracyFacts About Non-partisan democracy Non-partisan democracy is a system of representative government or organization such that universal and periodic elections...

www.absoluteastronomy.com...

Multiparty system in Israel;

Israel is a parliamentary republic with a 120-seat, unicameral legislature called the Knesset. The president, a largely ceremonial head of state, is elected by the Knesset for a seven-year term. Executive power is exercised by the prime minister and cabinet, who must be collectively approved by the Knesset. A government can be brought down by a no-confidence vote in the legislature. The prime minister, usually the leader of the majority party or coalition in the Knesset, is nominated by the president. However, between 1996 and 2001, the prime minister was chosen in a direct popular vote. Members of the Knesset are elected to four-year terms, but the prime minister may call new elections before the end of a term. In elections, voters choose among national party lists according to a strict proportional representation system. In recent years, the minimum vote threshold for a party to enter the Knesset has been gradually increased, to the current 2 percent. Nevertheless, a dozen or more parties continue to be represented in the body

www.democracyweb.org...

The prime minister in Israel is essentially a weak position that must implement policy with consent. If he ignores other knesset members, who may not be part of the government, a no confidence motion can be exercised to bring down the government. To counter this unpopularity, the party of goverment forms a coalition with another party or two by giving their leadership ministries or implementing their desired policies.

No Israeli prime minister can embark on a war without popular approval and other parties worry for their seats so the threat of censure is there.

The Israeli public want the attack on the Palestinians to continue.

reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 07:00 PM by kid_of_3NKi

Originally posted by blupblup
I would have thought it was the other way round?
As an individual.... that is exactly what i am.. an individual... a human being, not a brit or a man or a singer or a whatever.. i am an individual.
I am not a representation of my country and my country is certainly not a representation of me!!

No, by all means its not the other way around!!!
Why do you think you are being asked to vote for a new gov every 4 years? Why do we supposedly have "democracy"?
You are a individual and a part of the whole at the same time. You form your nation in the same way a atom forms a piece of matter in joint of billions other atoms!
Sorry, you don't seem to understand or accept the way creation has been designed and how it works.

That's great... so by your logic YOU are responsible for all wars that have passed, the state of the economy (currently), 9/11 and all other recent tragedies?

It's a nice idea you have, but not an entirely accurate one?

Oh yes, I am party responsible, of course! And i think about it almost every day and feel guilty for not doing enough of my part to bring on a change to a better life on earth!

[edit on 14-1-2009 by kid_of_3NKi]

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