Remember, the Bible is not written or founded on any original texts, but just very faulty copies.

If we keep visible this: "elephant in the room" in our spiritual eyesight, we will not be duped, or trapped.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I see this world as god's library. We are each part of him, each a tentacle of that spaghetti monster I've read about; each of our lives one of his books.

Reply to Kailassa by MatrixProphet
When will we stop relating God to our feeble reasoning? Totally agree with you.

There just may be a perfect reason for having an imperfect world.

However no amount of reading about honey equates to tasting it, and many of these great thinkers appear to me to have not tasted the honey at all.

...but I stood my ground, telling him that god walked with me through the forest every day, playing games with me, and helping me make up songs and poems, on my solitary 5 mile walks to and from school...

...The minister's face got redder and redder, and he bent over, shouting into mine: "God would never talk to an ignorant child like you! If you here someone talking to you like that you had better run like hell, because it's the Devil, and He's coming to carry you off to eternal damnation..."

An imperfect God would explain a lot.

...Even so, Gnosticism can be fascinating. If you're interested, you'll find more information at the Gnosis Web site...

Gnostics are wanderers in a wicked and doomed world...

If the selection had been done at other times than those particular ones, the Bible would have been different.

If we keep visible this: "elephant in the room" in our spiritual eyesight, we will not be duped, or trapped.

I have no idea at all what you mean by this. Care to explain?

still - I don't follow through in my reading of Gnosticism because - well, it's unsettling

maybe because it's always felt familiar - but, there are other reasons

Gnostics are wanderers in a wicked and doomed world...

it's like the wild west of spirituality - I feel like I should carry a gun

Psychologically speaking much of the atheist movement is nothing more than a reaction to extreme fundamentalism.

As so often in life, a counter-movement becomes just as extreme as the movement it was countering.

I have studied a lot on the Gnostics and some of my thinking goes along with theirs. I DO feel that there is special knowledge that only some are privy to.

But they go into typical religious avenues that Christianity (Paul) actually ran with! Ie: an evil God that runs this world, whereas I used to believe that, now I think he plays an important illusion in the role of duality. I have come to believe that all the Gods are on the same team. That duality is just an illusion that fulfills an important aspect of the Game.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

However no amount of reading about honey equates to tasting it, and many of these great thinkers appear to me to have not tasted the honey at all.

this is really nice - and I think that sums up why this is such an issue for so many

It's also like hearing the Pope pontificate on the evils of sex not aimed at reproduction.

there's no way to deny what you feel for yourself - but also - no true way to explain it

A word has been used for that feeling: the Numinous.
- Which I take to mean the experience of life/reality as a miracle.

and our own experience is so present with us that it makes it impossible to understand what it would be like without it

I can't imagine facing the death of ones loved ones or oneself without this knowledge.
I've seen atheists coping with these things, and they have shown incredible courage.

I don't think it even makes a difference what we may have believed either way before we believe what we believe in the present - the memory of that becomes something intangible and unreal in the presence of what we actually know and feel now

Sometimes, living too much in the numinous can make it difficult to keep up ones responsibilities in the "real" world, as it becomes steadily less real.
I admire those who work steadily in the material world and take care of all their responsibilities.

the thing is - this works in every direction - and on every level - for the faithful, agnostic and the atheist

if we're a believer (regardless of the specifics of our belief) the beliefs of others seem - at the very least - incorrect

It was six men of Indostan, to learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant, (though all of them were blind),
That each by observation, might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant, and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, at once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk, cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal, and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand, and felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; deny the fact who can?
This marvel of an Elephant is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun about the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail that fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right, and all were in the wrong!


So oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant not one of them has seen!

... god walked with me through the forest every day, playing games with me, ...

this is something I can relate to - a very similar experience to mine

...The minister's face got redder and redder, ..."

how could you feel anything other than pity (if you're capable of moving past anger) for someone like this? No matter however else one might look at this man - all I can see is how lonely and afraid he must have been

but I like hearing about strong little girls who aren't afraid to say what they mean to say

It's also like hearing the Pope pontificate on the evils of sex not aimed at reproduction.

A word has been used for that feeling: the Numinous. - Which I take to mean the experience of life/reality as a miracle

So oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant not one of them has seen!

It's also an accepted experience in India, where it's believed Krishna befriends lonely children and plays with them as god played with me.

...I believed the trees cared about me and communicated with me. When I realised I'd been born to my family, not dropped off from a spacecraft, I adopted the mountain ash (huge straight and strong eucalypts in Australia, not related to the trees called mountain ash elsewhere,) as my parents. Trees are Earth's way of making love to the sky. At times I felt there were dryads around, the spirits of Aborigines. And they seemed to want me to die in the bush, to be a playmate for them forever. I had to be careful when they were around. So it would not surprise me what kind of spirit beings may have been in the woods with you, wise, kind, playful or mischievous. - Or companions from a more heavenly realm.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

Buddha