We have a new problem in Gaza!, page 1
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reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 03:32 AM by Raud
What worries me, as well, is that Ehmud Olmert, in the earliest stages of the current offensive did the following-
a) Pointed his finger towards Lebanon- telling them that they should not interfere if they didn't want to be next.
b) Pointed his finger towards Syria- telling them the same thing as in point a.
c) saying that the uprising in Gaza is just a move to distract Israel from the real threat- that Iran is producing nuclear arms.
d) the entire offensive itself is to send a very clear message about points a-c.
e) the prolonged blockade towards Gaza that lasted for months ahead of the current offensive was to strengthen the reason behind point d (through famine enrage the population of Gaza making the agression towards Israel hard to avoid).
f) The fact that for each fallen family member, realtive and/or friend, destroyed home and/or life you have yet another warrior against the occupation on your hands so the outcome of the offensive will lead to just another, harder and stonger offensive and counter-offensive on your hands- and it will come more frequently.

This is by no means the "final" war. This conflict will remain forever until some of the following takes place:
1) Israel is destoryed ("wiped from the surface of the earth), not likely to happen.
2) Palestine is destroyed, not likely to happen.
3) Hamas, Hizbollah and and the others are disarmed forever and also disbanded, not likely to happen.
4) All sides lay down their arms and shake hands, making by-gones be by-gones. Not likely at all (but the most utopian solution and the most reasonable)!
5) There is a "two states solution". This is not likely due to the fact that if Palestine is regarded a soverign state, then they can form alliances with other nations that share the same views about the state of Israel. A soverign state can aslo create their own standing army and air force- something Israel can not accept.
Conclusion- ending this conflict is first of all not likely and second; Israel will not accept it, nor will Palestine...

My gosh, this entire situation is so absurd...
My thoughts go out to the poor civilians who are born in this God-forsaken piece of soil, lives there without a choice and dies there, in vain and in terrible horror.

As long as Israel has the US on a tight leash, this will go on and on.
And even how paradoxial it might seem, it looks like as long as we believe in peace, there will be only war.


reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 04:11 AM by detachedindividual
reply to post by Raud


I think you're correct on every point.

The only practical solution was a "two state" solution, and that was why it was internationally supported.
But, as we've seen, Israel has no intention of ending the ongoing conflict with Gaza, and Hamas views Israel as an occupier (which is actually correct, regardless of how Israel likes to ignore this fact.).

Hamas are to blame also, it's not entirely Israel. Without at vocal, moderate and rational opinion, a state is viewed internationally as dangerous and irresponsible.
It would be much better (and Israel should know this and end it now on the basis of this) that international support is given when restraint and tolerance are displayed. I'm not talking about world leaders here, they couldn't give a rats ass, they just look at the money. But the people worldwide decide on a nation based on the way it behaves.

Israel would have my support if they had approached the international community without being irrational and violent, and stated that they feel they are suffering but that they don't want to attack Gaza. If they had refused to risk the lives of innocent civilians, based on the rockets being fired into Israel, and opted to further talks and discussion, they would have maintained international support and sympathy.

The fact is, the few killed and injured by rockets fired into Israel is not something they worry about as a government. In the massive population, these figures are minuscule. Far more are killed in other more easily preventable ways. It's PR for the people to state that you are taking this kind of action to safeguard a minute number of your people. It's not because of that at all.

This is nothing to do with the rockets being fired into Israel. That is an excuse to enact a war in which there are greater rewards to gain. I don't pretend to know what the real reasons are, but I do have a belief that it certainly involves Iran. And I do believe it has the backing of the US because of this. They know the game plan.

Either way, Israel and the US have further eroded respect for either nation. Not many people will have sympathy for either after this. And rightly so.

I had the misfortune to log on here last night and saw an image that will stay with me forever.
Many of you probably saw it too. And I've no doubt the insane pro-Israel posters still either remained silent on it, or refused to accept that their glorious Israel did that. Some probably even glorified it.

We all know that these are the harsh realities of war. But when you are confronted by something like that, you have to understand why people become so angry. And when you see what Israel is doing, the war crimes and atrocities, and you know that they just don't care, it makes me even more angry than I ever thought possible.
The only way it stopped me (a grown man) from breaking down, was that it was quick, and that this baby didn't understand the stupid reasons and hateful minds behind their death. I'm thankful that they wouldn't have understood that adult Humans would do that to them.

I have actually found myself almost rooting for Hamas! Last night when I heard Hamas was still firing rockets into Israel I actually caught myself saying "good!" I never thought I would have such a reaction.

But seeing the image of a mutilated and burned body of a baby flicks a switch in the mind of any sane person, it makes you vengeful, it makes you hunger for swift and absolute justice. It certainly made me consider what I would be doing if I were in Gaza right now and had seen that for myself. Chances are good that I would be firing at every IDF soldier I saw, supportive of Hamas or not. I would do everything in my power to end the lives of those grown men killing babies for their government, hundreds of them still wouldn't make up for that one child.

In my opinion, the UN should take a collection of those images, go and see the "mighty leaders" of Israel and force them to look at them. They should not be allowed to detach themselves from what they are responsible for. Bush should be shown them too, just so he knows what his financial and military support is responsible for. No more numbers and statistics, they need to see for themselves what their glorious military might is doing.

Does anyone know that child's name?
And if not, why not?



reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:16 AM by Raud
I read you.

A civilian casualty is always an enormous tragedy, be it an Israelian life or a Palestinian one.
War and terrorism can never be accepted, no cause is worth killing for.
As soon as the killing starts, the cause is lost, especially in this case, and that goes for both parties.
The "blood for blood" concept is a "lacuna coil".
Palestinian terrorists, or terrorists with similar connections target mostly civilians.
The Israeli military doesn't seem to care much for colateral damage.
The blockade of Gaza was targeted, at least indirectly, at civilians.
The main goal of Hamas is to "eliminate the state of Israel", in other words: a standing declaration of war.
Both sides has totally lost the respect for life, peace and prosperity.
The Palestinian agressors does not know what is best for its own, suffering population.
The Israeli goverment seem to have a hard time to grasp the concept of "action-consequence".
Both parties have taken war into their standing agenda, and thier agendas for the cause of the warfare is eternal until some solution in my first post takes place (which I already said is not likely).
No side accepts the other and diplomacy seems to have gone out the window some time ago.
Both parties take pride in what they do and both think that "revenge" is a good and just thing.
Terrorists are using religion as a reason for justifying the war- which is disgusting.
Israel are using sophisticated, and massive, means of warfare upon an area crowded with civilians which is not only insane but also likewise disgusting.
Israel is threatened from most sides of its borders and since it is a legal state they defend their territory, occupied or not.
The war has gone from generation to generation without interuption, that is the formula for more or less eternal war.
Ehmud Olmert is the first Israeli president who has no military career behind himself, thus he needs to show extra strength against the agressors just so that he can fit into the "club".
The Palestinians voted for a party who justifies terrorism, and they won.
Fatah was installed more or less on the initiative of western governments to enusre a slow but steady road towards peace- Hamas has shown armed agression towards them, and in that proven that war is their agenda, peace through diplomacy is not (besides, Fatah did not recieve the majority of the votes so it must also be the voice of the population).
The first organized band of terrorist in the region were the "Stern League", all Jewish so the Israelis are just as bad.
Israel does not seem to understand the following- attacking civilian infrastructure will mostly harm civilians, the terrorists will fight from caves (as in Afghanistan for example).
Israel does not seem to understand that western countries (such as mine) builds infrastructure to raise living standards to lower the famine and reason for agression.
Western countries (especially mine) has given billions of dollars throughout the years to Palestine. Most of the money has gone missing, possibly to furthur arm their military branches. Still, we send more, hoping that "maybe this time it will go to good means".
The Israeli population are also refugees in origin, driven out of surrounding countries such as Turkey, Syria, Libya and others who saw a great chance to get rid of them now that a new home for them were established.
The Palestinians are attacking what used to be their homes.
If the Israelis would do the same, they would bomb Casablanca among other cities .
Both sides wants peace through war, like having virginity through sex.
If a "two state solution" was to be reality, there would just be war between two states, not occupied population against occupiers.
The US wants peace through diplomacy in the region, but also witholding their "war on terrorism".
Egypt wants an end to the war through diplomacy (before being dragged into it) while still looking between their fingers concerning the tunnel network supplying Palestine with weapons originating from (most likely) Iran.
Both sides have a great majority of their people urging for long-lasing peace. Sadly, the sound of artillery drowns their cries.

I could go on forever with this, just like the war itself.
My point is that even though it might be tempting to take sides...I can not. This war is among the stupidest and upsetting yet for the Earth to witness. The occupation is not justified, even though it has a story of its own.
Suicide bombers are not justified, even though they have a story of their own...

You get me?


reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:29 AM by detachedindividual
reply to post by Raud


Absolutely. Spot on.

The one thing that suggests to me that there is another more dominant reason for this attack is the harsh reality that this will certainly put Israel in more danger from terrorism and attack than it ever was before.

They know this, but they have chosen to act anyway, which would suggest that whatever they see as a possible goal, is worth another decade of suicide bombers, rocket attacks, international anger... x100

This is why I am worried that Israel and the US both have a plan much wider than Gaza. The only goal I can imagine is the total control/destruction of several nations in the region.


reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:46 AM by hawk65
My thing is this...Iran is using there cargo ship to bait Israel into doing something harsh agaisnt the ship to give reason for Iran to get into this. Sometimes the best way to contemplate and figure out these conspiracy theories is to put yourselves in the shoes of the bag guys and say....hmm if i were in charge this is what i would do. all of the puzzle pieces are starting to come into focus now:

oil
global economy
climate change
obama
israel
middle east
WAR

We need only to put the pieces together now at this point. Look how far people got with the 9/11 puzzle pieces. Its only a matter of time...and the clock is running out quick. I think there is going to be a massive catastrophe very soon...within in the next 3 months. especially on US soil on top of more even worse things going on around the world.

Hell Katrina was a test by DARPA and FEMA to demostrate our power technology and control. You can also figure in 9/11 in there too somewhere. And on top of that the news about having US soldiers on US soil for martial law or whatever in conjuction of the new BOXCAR issue.

Dont forget the US just recently aquired 11million acres in colorado. Something big is about to go down. Quit arguing about the bulls*it and lets band together and put these puzzle pieces together. as a population we outnumber our militaries significantly...so you can imagine what would happen if countries own people even the US attempted a coup. Its all possible and you all know it.....

Remember its: "We the People" and that phrase applies to all countries. and i definately dont see GOVERNMENT in that phrase!


reply posted on 14-1-2009 @ 05:55 AM by Raud
Ehm...
Originally posted by BorgHoffen
Syria Egypt Jordan and Iran will not join in.

Syria is in on it, but they will not attack.
Egypt has very little to do with the situation besides looking the other way while tunnel networks from inside their territory supplies Gaza with arms.
Jordan? Besides having some minor terrorist elements, totally outside their government, they have nothing to do with this. Nor have they before. Well, not since -94 at least.

This is Hezbollah and Hamas terror loving lunatics trying to team up.

Trying to? They are one and the same. At least when it comes to cause.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter you know...

Its not Lebanon its Hezbollah who took over Lebanon just like Hamas took over Gaza.

Hezbollah has never "taken over" Lebanon. The Lebanese government is very concerned with Hezbollah.
Hamas was elected trough majority by the Palestinaian people- check your facts.

I new a Lebanese christian who lived in Lebanon, and when Hezbollah took over he had to move.
Because they demanded he pay money for "NOT" being a Muslim.
Which of course is sickeningly absurd.
Sickeningly absurd Hezbollah and sickeningly absurd Hamas, religious extremist terrorists.

I am aware of that such thing has happened in the past and continues to this day, but this is not and act of the Lebanese government.
Ever heard of the Lebanese civil war? Ever looked into it? I mean, do you know what christian milita did towards muslims there?
Again- check you facts.
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