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The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

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posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Simplynoone
 


1 Tim. 2:12-13

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet, 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." (1 Tim. 2:12-13).

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


Hmm ...ok guess your right ....well I see my studying just got longer ..lol .
Thanks for the verses ....I am going to see what I can find out ..if I find anything I will let you know ..
Maybe it is because she can be decieved easier than men ...I mean men are not as trusting as us women for sure ..I am very trusting ...too much ...




posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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k, well anyway, to me that sounds like a big contradiction. either that or women were never thought to be capable of going to heaven, in which case, i'm sure glad jesus came along and that i don't have to look for him in a book when he's right here with me.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by John Matrix
 


that would be sufficient description were it not for the fact he further explains the reason as "because of Eve." that has nothing to do with the times they were living in. it was a commentary on eve's sin in the garden. adam apparently knew better but did it anyway. eve supposedly was tricked. adam who knew better but did it anyway, was allowed to speak in church but eve, who was tricked, was not. i failed to see the significance of the reason and thought it was really contradictory in the light of the rest of the data. such as who were the first to profess the risen savior? that's the gospel message. it was women.

but this bit of strangely placed commentary, caused women to be excluded from letting their light shine before other people. it's the same holy spirit ya know? i scratch my head.

if women were prophesying in the church in other places, such as in acts, why would a few letters later, paul say, keep women quiet? it doesn't say in acts that the women who were prophesying were incorrect or disruptive.

anyway, too many contradictions. it wasn't about book knowledge anyway, but the ability spread the gospel, the good news of jesus. suddenly it was about book knowledge.

i mean, after i carefully studied all of that, i began to feel very discouraged as a christian. here was deborah, the leader and prophet of Israel, who was a woman of God. yet 2000 years later, even 4000 years later, there are people who still believe the holy spirit is only allowed to speak from the lips of a man ..even after all that jesus demonstrated and said about women.




You are right, but please don't throw the baby out with the bath water over it.

I'm going to do more research on the topic.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by undo
k, well anyway, to me that sounds like a big contradiction. either that or women were never thought to be capable of going to heaven, in which case, i'm sure glad jesus came along and that i don't have to look for him in a book when he's right here with me.



Surely no one believes that women wont be in heaven ....I have never heard anyone even suggest that before ....
The book helps me alot in my daily walk with the Lord ...I know him personally but I also love to read about history (which the word has alot of history in it) and I love to hear about the Apostles and what they did ..where they went ...who they touched ..how they lived ..how they acted ...And I really love all the info I get about God and the Lord Jesus Christ ..
Even the OT is interesting ...and I loved David and Goliath and Ruth and Psalms and Job (wow he really touches me by his strength and faith in God)
So many others ..Proverbs is awesome advice ......So is Psalms and Ecclesiastics ..etc ..
Really there is not any problem in life (basic ones) that the bible does not deal with and help me get through things when it is me in those shoes (which I have lived a life similar to some of those people ) ....or at least sort of ..different circumstances but the same results when I took the advice from Proverbs and the Apostles etc .................

The Lord sets me straight though when I even try and justify my own actions using the word digging to see how I can come to my own conclusions and get a justification from it somewhere for my own sinful actions ..He also has shown me scripture that helped me leave my beater husband .. ...I would not leave my husband who beat me because of scripture saying divorce was not good ...or permissible .......until I found scripture that says if he is not pleased to dwell with me he can let me go ..problem was I wasnt pleased .(he was) .....then more scriptures were shown to me ...and he opened my eyes to some things and so I left ...
I kept having bad bloody dreams that he really was going to kill me if I did not get out .(he tried many times) ...I didnt listen to my dreams .I could actually feel the Lord trying to lead me out ..but I refused to go ....for 5 years ....but one day ...some things happened after reading scripture ..(a miracle happened that would never have happened unless God did it) I wont say what ...but that was my clue to go ...
Thank God ...because I made it out alive .....



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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There is one thing I have always wondered about though since we are on the subject of women ...........
There are no women angels whatsover in the bible ...at least none that I know of ...anyone know of any ?

I have seen two angels before and they were definately men ..

My Mother (God bless her soul) saw women angels a few times though ...(and I believe her) ..



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


oh i never have thrown out the scriptures, i just don't think of them as purely infallible. i think the holy spirit is infallible, though


the book is good, but it's not God.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 


oh that's a controversial subject, right there and i'm not touching it with a ten foot pole



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone

Originally posted by undo
k, well anyway, to me that sounds like a big contradiction. either that or women were never thought to be capable of going to heaven, in which case, i'm sure glad jesus came along and that i don't have to look for him in a book when he's right here with me.



Surely no one believes that women wont be in heaven ....I have never heard anyone even suggest that before ....
The book helps me alot in my daily walk with the Lord ...I know him personally but I also love to read about history (which the word has alot of history in it) and I love to hear about the Apostles and what they did ..where they went ...who they touched ..how they lived ..how they acted ...And I really love all the info I get about God and the Lord Jesus Christ ..
Even the OT is interesting ...and I loved David and Goliath and Ruth and Psalms and Job (wow he really touches me by his strength and faith in God)
So many others ..Proverbs is awesome advice ......So is Psalms and Ecclesiastics ..etc ..
Really there is not any problem in life (basic ones) that the bible does not deal with and help me get through things when it is me in those shoes (which I have lived a life similar to some of those people ) ....or at least sort of ..different circumstances but the same results when I took the advice from Proverbs and the Apostles etc .................

.He also has shown me scripture that helped me leave my beater husband .. ...


I read everything you posted tonight, it's all very interesting. It looks like you ran into one of those reality situations that ideals in scripture don't address too well.

I mean, the ideals would work fine if everyone followed them, but in reality everyone doesn't.

Another situation similar to this is where Paul says we should not sue our brother and drag him before the Law of the Unjust. But in the real word , brothers cheat their brothers, slanders their brothers, ruin business relationships, etc, and cause brothers to incur serious damage, and if they won't compensate you what are you supposed to do? I believe you have a right to sue a brother for compensation, if they won't conduct themselves accordingly. So I also believe you have a right to leave an abusive husband....as you have said correctly.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Simplynoone
 


oh that's a controversial subject, right there and i'm not touching it with a ten foot pole


haha chicken lol ..I am gonna do some more digging on that one too ...


I am not a women libber ...well not too much anyway ..I still appreciate men doing things for me and I love them to take control ..LOL >>nicely that is ..
It can be kinda fun actually .....I really just let him think he is in control but really I am lol ...and he knows it ..but he gets the final say if it is not something I am COMPLETELY AGAINST ..I will REFUSE to do it (whatever it is) ........I am set in my ways and will never do something that does not feel right in my spirit or my heart .......and he knows it ..(there is no moving me on things that feel wrong to me I refuse to do it or take part in it ) ...........
My hubby really loves me because I am not a real modern type women ..so its all cool ...but other women cant stand the fact that I am that way ..I think the womens movement got to extreme and it really ruined alot of things if you ask me ..yes it was good for women ..but I think they abused it ...(women did) and men resented it ..(which also changed how they view us) ..Which is a shame for both sides ...



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


Yes ...absolutely ...I really believe that there are circumstances that do require drastic measures ....I did not want to leave ...but really I had no choice ..
I actually repeated it with another husband after him ...that one the Lord came to me in a dream and told me in no uncertain terms to pack and leave that day after (17 years) ....(another very long story but truly God was there during that mess too) ..



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
There is one thing I have always wondered about though since we are on the subject of women ...........
There are no women angels whatsover in the bible ...at least none that I know of ...anyone know of any ?

I have seen two angels before and they were definately men ..

My Mother (God bless her soul) saw women angels a few times though ...(and I believe her) ..




The one that came to me was a woman. She was about 12 feet tall. When she spoke I could feel her voice resonate through me. I did not get a clear look at her because the Light she stood in was too bright and she was standing right next to me(looking up was too difficult because of the light). The light was so bright that I could see my bones when I looked at my arm or down my body.


[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


now i saw a woman one night in a grocery store that i instantly felt was out of place, like ....she didn't look homo sapian, if you know what i mean. she was extremely beautiful. all her features were symmetrical. she was very tall, and when i say tall i don't mean 12 ft, but over 7ft. she was neither thin nor bulky. she didn't have the tell tale signs of gigantism, so it didn't look like a genetic abnormality or a disease, yet she didn't have that movie star or model look about her. i remember stopping in my tracks and staring, between the vegetables in the produce isle. she then turned to look at me and she smiled like she knew i was gawking at her that whole time, from half way across the store. i then quickly turned my head out of embarrassment and she got a disappointed look on her face and wandered off around the corner. i dunno if she was human and was just disappointed that yet another person was gawking at her or if she was something else entirely and disappointed that i didn't make more attempts to communicate with her but heck, i was tired and she frankly, freaked me out a bit.
took me a few minutes for my brain to catch up with the visual data.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 02:03 AM
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According to the OP, the question was: "Why did God smite the Egyptians, including children?"

The answer is: Pharaoh was going to kill the first-born children of the Hebrews, so God reversed the command of Pharaoh and had the angel of death take the first born of the Egyptians. It was one of the means of getting Pharaoh to release the Hebrews.

PS: Death is a big thing to those who do not believe in life after death.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
According to the OP, the question was: "Why did God smite the Egyptians, including children?"

The answer is: Pharaoh was going to kill the first-born children of the Hebrews, so God reversed the command of Pharaoh and had the angel of death take the first born of the Egyptians. It was one of the means of getting Pharaoh to release the Hebrews.


Wow, for such a loving and caring supreme being of inifinite compassion -- he reverses a command by "killing children". But not just that, no. He did it first so the other guy couldn't!


So he has the power to do that? Why didn't he just "change the Pharoah's mind" instead? Why didn't he smite all the people who would have killed the children instead? Surely that's better than "killing children" ?!

The definition of a true, unbiased love from 'God' -- "Love me and worship me but don't question me or you will get your @rse handed back to you ten fold. Oh by the way, here's free-will. Enjoy!"




[edit on 16-1-2009 by noonebutme]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by noonebutme

Originally posted by Jim Scott
According to the OP, the question was: "Why did God smite the Egyptians, including children?"

The answer is: Pharaoh was going to kill the first-born children of the Hebrews, so God reversed the command of Pharaoh and had the angel of death take the first born of the Egyptians. It was one of the means of getting Pharaoh to release the Hebrews.


Wow, for such a loving and caring supreme being of inifinite compassion -- he reverses a command by "killing children". But not just that, no. He did it first so the other guy couldn't!


So he has the power to do that? Why didn't he just "change the Pharoah's mind" instead? Why didn't he smite all the people who would have killed the children instead? Surely that's better than "killing children" ?!

The definition of a true, unbiased love from 'God' -- "Love me and worship me but don't question me or you will get your @rse handed back to you ten fold. Oh by the way, here's free-will. Enjoy!"


[edit on 16-1-2009 by noonebutme]


Don't take it Literally, God would dread;
Never happened, but always is.
God vs. Evil; the war rages in You.
Who wins, who loses?
Your road is low; His is High.
The Story happens in your head.
Did you see the dead?
Mock God; you Lose.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:14 AM
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Sounds to me like Paul is stuck on the physical, while Jesus is not. Paul see's man and woman, Jesus see's the soul contained within.

It's just another example of Paul contradicting Jesus. With Paul's call for "order", I'd bet he'd have thought Jesus was a heretic for doing such things.

Even if it were true about adam and eve, as an adam I do not blame eve. I would have to blame myself for I am the one responsible for my actions. And even if you can claim eve is responsible, I forgive her.

Not to long ago I seen a John Wayne movie preview on TV. It was John Wayne and this woman. John on his horse, and the woman doing something along the church. John is about to go off and do something, and the woman quotes Jesus in giving him advice. John Wayne then quotes Paul in a verse as a way of telling her to know her place and to shut up.

If anything, I would say Pauls problem with women comes from his own jealousy as woman are in general more like Jesus. More loving and forgiving than Paul was ever capable of.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Sounds to me like Paul is stuck on the physical, while Jesus is not. Paul see's man and woman, Jesus see's the soul contained within.

It's just another example of Paul contradicting Jesus. With Paul's call for "order", I'd bet he'd have thought Jesus was a heretic for doing such things.

Even if it were true about adam and eve, as an adam I do not blame eve. I would have to blame myself for I am the one responsible for my actions. And even if you can claim eve is responsible, I forgive her.

Not to long ago I seen a John Wayne movie preview on TV. It was John Wayne and this woman. John on his horse, and the woman doing something along the church. John is about to go off and do something, and the woman quotes Jesus in giving him advice. John Wayne then quotes Paul in a verse as a way of telling her to know her place and to shut up.

If anything, I would say Pauls problem with women comes from his own jealousy as woman are in general more like Jesus. More loving and forgiving than Paul was ever capable of.


Sounds like you are stuck in a feedback loop.
Get over it?
How does it feel going through life,
When, wherever you go you cause Strife.
Shut up and listen for a change.
Is that so Strange.
Your better than Paul, we get that.
Anything else you can Chat?



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia

If anything, I would say Pauls problem with women comes from his own jealousy as woman are in general more like Jesus. More loving and forgiving than Paul was ever capable of.


I take serious issue with you asserting women are more like Jesus and more loving. I would say both are equal in that regard. Why the gender bias? Do you have the Ahab Spirit?



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by noonebutme
 


I tell you it makes no sense! And the reason it makes no sense is because it was written by men who were trying to explain events they didn't fully understand. The same applies to any mythology...except in the case of the Bible, people don't like it when you call it mythology. Who's to say that the Bible holds truth over Greek Mythology or Egyptian Mythology or Sumerian Mythology? No one, because we weren't there when these men wrote these things.

What we do know is that there were no scrolls or writings or books that just fell out of the sky one day courtesy of God or Zeus or Ra or Gilgamesh, or anyone else for that matter. The flaw in all religion is that it is dictated by man, manipulated and changed by man and blindly followed by man.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by John Matrix
 


oh i never have thrown out the scriptures, i just don't think of them as purely infallible. i think the holy spirit is infallible, though


the book is good, but it's not God.


I found a really good exegesis on 1 Timothy for you. Lots of insight from the Greek language. This makes things more clear than the one I gave you last night.
Exploring to get the real meaning is an adventure in itself...quite addictive actually.
I try to take the position that if a contradiction exists, it's because I don't see all the pieces.
Proposed contradictions, even one's not solved to my satisfaction, do nothing to shake my foundation.

christianfeminism.wordpress.com...




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