The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

reply to post by Grandma


Thank you for your thoughtful reply,

I agree that Christ's teachings are a wonderful thing, he was a great philosopher and knew that love and peace were the answer. But I cannot call myself a Christian because of the history of the religion. Most Christians believe they are following Christ but few know all the editing the Romans and pre-catholics did to get to the Bible (new and old testament) that we have today. It is my opinion that Christ did not seek to bring a religion to the world, merely a new way of living, a new philosophy for the ages, one of love.

The thing is that too many Christians aren't following Christ, they are following a religion based loosely on Christ's teachings that was created by the Romans, not by Christ (because he never formed a religion).

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Titen-Sxull:

I agree, religion was formed by man not by Jesus. I do not belong to a church but I worship my Lord everyday. I have a very privite alone time with him where he teaches my the mystery of faith, true faith. He wraps his arms around me with love so wonderful it makes me cry. To be in his holy presence is indeed a mystery in and of its self. Love is the key here. It is more important than any commandment but not so easy to grasp. To love as Christ loved takes work everyday to crucify the world and have your wholeself open to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The bible still teaches that kind of love. Both in the OT and the NT. Like I said before, one needs spiritual eyes to see the truth and wisdom to understand how the love applies today to all of us.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Jesus never formed a religion but he did form a church. I agree that the churches today are a far cry from the idea that our Lord had in mind, but again, there are some good churches out there with good Christian people.

Peace to you,
Grandma

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


It is so amazing how much discourse there is on the Bible - for a book that has caused so much dissention and pain and joy.

Of course it was written by man. But to have existed this long with so much effort put forth to keep it alive, and make it the greatest mass produced book in history, with the book of Alcoholic's Anonymous not too far behind (also loosely based on the Bible), it has to have had some divine impetus behind it!

The question to ask is: why? Obviously, there are thousands of problems with the Bible, but one or more incredible reasons why it is also an astounding book.

WHO would benefit by the propaganda set forth in the Bible that portrays God as a psychopath? Who and what has used the Bible for control? And why has God allowed it? OR...was this part of his plan?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


isn't grandma awesome?
anyway, mind you i don't just read biblical texts, i read as many as i can get my hands on from that time frame. they are all telling a very similar story, particularly pre and post flood (let's just call it the black sea flood for now). many people over look the hindu texts, such as the mahabharata. that text is said to be as old as the sumerian-akkadian stories, all of which you see echoes of in the bible, the torah, the pseudopigraphical texts, the egyptian texts, and even later texts from phoenicia, assyria, the koran, the ugaritic texts, and the texts of babylon (non-hebraic versions).

what i did was a comparative analysis. what i found was a story about hybridization of the people via their god-men rulers, enslavement of the human race, and eventually massive pollution that created a huge drought, the flora and fauna became inedible and the population began to starve. the hybrids, who were in positions of power and influence, were hardier and took to eating the remaining humans as a food source.

then the flood.

two different versions of the flood story are told from the mesopotamian perspective. one account is given by the rulers and their priests. the other account is one that was maintained in oral tradition by the human slaves. these two versions emerged with nearly identical details save a very pivotal piece of data. i'd get more indepth about it but i don't want to take your thread off topic too far.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by undo]

It is true the bible was written by men,
just like news papers, it had every news written allover it
and the words of God was spoken through his
Prophets, so not the entire bible is the words of God

Think of it this way, what if I tell you to do things you dislike
would you do it? or you just simply says No! Right? so
Earth belongs to God so he can do whatever he pleases with it, no?
You can blow you house up if you want to right? if not hurting your neighbour

• God is Absolute, he created the earth, so it is his

• You cretaed a painting so the painting is = whos?, you can tranfer the belongings to people who wants to pay so it's theirs? right? but if the person who buys the painting is questioned "who's painting is this?" he would reply to your name no?

• Abraham is the only human who acknoledge God, think of you offsprings, if they wouldn't acknowledge you what will you do? force them?, so God sees Abraham as the father of all faithful man, and he is fond with him and he is the chosen one!, think of it this way, if you had 3 sons, and 2 despite you an rejects you, and the one and only son love you dearly wouldn't you give him everything?

Try a tropical fish for a pet and you can see, how god runs the world

But if you believe otherwise, no problemo, It's a free world all you have to do is fall in love!

It is faith....kind a thang you logic guy wouldn't comprehend our way of life, just wait till the end, and see who is right. coz right now, with all our sin, we are going to be BURN ALIVE AND FOREVAAAA! (You do not care i can tell, somehow)

reply to post by undo


I'd love to read the texts that brought you to that conclusion, it seems like a leap to go from stories of Floods and angels to jump in with god-men, an enslaved human race, and massive pollution. I was intrigued with the story of the Nephilim in the Book of Enoch, does that tie into your research?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull
well I don`t know who Ggod is and why he permits suffering of man..I think it has something to do with our will to love and the degrees each has in himself.but before I question Gods existence I would look at all the marvels man has made before the hebrew/egyptian religion..and all the unexplained artifacts that puzzle our most sophiticated scientist.I rather believe in God and do good and risk no heaven ,than to not believe and risk not going to heaven

reply to post by Titen-Sxull
well I don`t know who Ggod is and why he permits suffering of man..I think it has something to do with our will to love and the degrees each has in himself.but before I question Gods existence I would look at all the marvels man has made before the hebrew/egyptian religion..and all the unexplained artifacts that puzzle our most sophiticated scientist.I rather believe in God and do good and risk no heaven ,than to not believe and risk not going to heaven

reply to post by MatrixProphet


The Bible has a great deal of life lessons and wisdom in it but what the book was used to justify, what religion used it to justify, is incredible evil. Tyrant Kings claiming to be put on the throne by God, using religion to keep people in guilt and obedient to the powers that be. Burning of "witches", crusades, inquisitions, suppression of science, repression of emotions, creation of the idea that you need a church or a priest to get in touch with God, destruction of Native cultures and religions all over the world, not to mention that whole Manifest Destiny business...

My opinion is that Modern Christianity began with Constantine making Christianity the official religion. Once it became a state sponsored religion those in power twisted it into whatever they wanted and used it to justify their own tyranny... My opinion is that those in power knew Christ's teachings of love would cause problems for them so they reached a "if you can't beat em, join em" point and decided to corrupt the whole thing from within and use it for their own ends... The evils done by State Sponsored religion are what prompted the Founding Fathers to put separation of Church and State into the first amendment...

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


yes, 1enoch. several others, as well. epic of gilgamesh, enuma elish, mahabharata, the legend of the destruction of mankind (egyptian), and so on.

You folks all need to go to www.tomorrowsworld.org... and read and study with your Bible. I was so confused because what I was reading in the Bible and what was taught in all denominational churches were contradictions. But I never gave up all hope I just new what I was hearing was wrong and I did not want a part of it so I stuck to the Bible and did the best I could. Then I ran into Mr. Armstrongs' written work on the Bible and everything fell into place for me. Finaly everything in the Bible and what is happening in our world today made perfect sence. Please read and study your Bible with an open mind and you will see the truth, You will see that the Bible does not contradict itself, people and denominations contradict the Bible. Lucifer has ruled the world for almost 6000 years and he is a master manipulator do not be nieve and think he isnt we look it in the face everyday. That is why there is suffering folks it aint God its Lucifer. If you read the Bible it will tell you all about it. We have been so decieved that people like us that search for the truth grows very weary when it is so hard to find we find contradiction after contradction over and over and we tend to give up. You must be stubborn and not give up. If you will read your Bible and study Mr. Armstrongs' writings you will find a devine truth that will blow your mind beyond anything you have ever known before.

No one goes unto the father but by Me!

Jesus Christ

this statement is none to be foun in other religions, the cannot asurre your safety
after this life is over. Why don't you believe?....what it takes to trust? evidence?
Why do you trust 2 + 2 = is 4? why??? but you can't trust Jesus?
it is because you cannot see Him yes?? never trust an invisible guy

Originally posted by Melissa101
Please read and study your Bible with an open mind and you will see the truth, You will see that the Bible does not contradict itself, people and denominations contradict the Bible. Lucifer has ruled the world for almost 6000 years and he is a master manipulator do not be nieve and think he isnt we look it in the face everyday.

Religion does not promote open minds. You did not attempt to refute the glaring contradiction I pointed out in my original post. The Bible says that God is Love, but it also says he smites people, kills people, and damns them to a fiery pit of unending torment for all eternity, if that is not a contradiction than I don't know what is.

Blaming the Devil for evil and suffering doesn't work, when I see people suffering it is ALWAYS the work of human beings. Human beings are the true source of evil, if the Devil does exist than I highly doubt he even need involve himself in our affairs. Suffering is the product of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance, not of some invisible boogeyman or unseen fallen angel who you claim rules the world... If I'm mistaken, prove it, show me an event that can only be explained as Lucifer and his influence as opposed to the evils of man...

I believe the Roman Catholic view on the bible is that it is a work of man inspired by the Holy Spirit
A good example is Genesis and the seven days of creation, its obvious a man is writing here, to put a literal earthly time limit on an eternal God is backward thinking
God hadn’t even created earth yet so a “day” in our sense is invalid to God
What is a “day” for God?
But if you look at it in the inspired POV the story has a new light and is coded with Godly symbolism
7 days of creation, 7 being the number of creation heaven and earth combined
3 representing heaven and 4 representing earth
Christ’s crucifixion is also coded with this symbolism
3 being Christ, the Trinitarian, sent from heaven, his Godly image of mind, heart and soul bound to earth by four nails thru his earthly flesh on a cross, 4 being the number of earth , N E S W, 4 seasons, 3 months to a season, 12 months-12 disciples
Ect ect ect
Religion is derived from a Greek word meaning a people with a common understanding, if a people have a common understanding that Christ authorized Peter to be the foundation of his Church then you end up with Catholicism
I know this will be rebuked and many will say Rome used and corrupted the Church of Peter
And for some examples I will agree but for many others the Church of Peter is still alive and still acting thru the Roman Church as a beacon of Christ’s light to the world.
In fact the tomb of St Peter was discovered under the very alter of the basilica in the VC, quite literally he is the foundation of Christ’s Church on earth
I must say though the words of Christ in the bible are the most important and really the whole point of the bible and the history of the Jews is to point to the Divinity of Christ and his teaching.
As for God destroying humanity… if you were a gardener and you discovered weeds, what would you do?
If your plants had become over grown would you not prune them? If your fruit trees were not giving fruit would you not cut them back or even rip them up and plant in new soil?
If your grape veins had become rotten and vile, full of parasites, would you not cut them down and cast them upon the fire? Put humanity back in perspective and then the bible might make more sense

reply to post by tengkorak


Just because someone says something doesn't make it true, I know two plus two equals four because if I take four things I can divide them into two groups of two (try it yourself, it works). Anyone can claim to be a prophet, claim to be of God, or write down in a book that "This Book is the word of God", it doesn't make it true.

The fact is that when I was a kid I was raised in the religion, but as you grow older, and your mind expands and you learn knew truths outside of that religion it calls everything into question. I search, now, for the real truth, and I question anything and everything that claims to be the truth, because faith built on blind-belief and ignorance is a terrible thing...

And yeah, some of it is because he's invisible, call me a doubting Thomas but I'd have to see Christ for myself in all his glory (not just burnt onto a piece of toast next to an image of the virgin Mary or written about in some ancient self-contradictory book)

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Nice one karl 12, I was surprised by how high the body count was, I'd like to see the total once you add the deaths prophesied in Revelation, isn't it like one third of humanity that's supposed to be killed during our loving God's return?

Titen-Sxull,thanks for the reply -I dread to think how numerous the murder tally would be if you factored in all the 'end times death and destruction' opinion (as if 33 million isn't enough?).
It also doesn't help that rabid abrahamic extremist fanactics (on either side of the debate) are actively promoting this event by 'acting as a catalyst' for their 'self fulfilling prophesy'.

I've actually heard people argue that mankind's morality and rules don't apply to God, I guess those people forgot that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was God's rule, not man's (according to the Bible)

Yes, I've heard that one - also the justification that 'they had it coming' or that 'god works in mysterious ways' is common.
As you say ,many children died in the various genocides the abrahamic mythologies gleefuly revels in and boasts about.
To my mind its all just so man made as to be painfully obvious -just my opinion though

That T-Shirt was pretty great too, surprised they managed to fit all that on it

Ah yes Mr Dawkins is quite an eloquent chap,I don't always agree with him but it seems he may be right on this one
Cheers Karl


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by paperplanes
I went to a Christian secondary school in which virtually all of the teachers had attended seminary and were very well read with regard to the Christian texts. They were generally very rational, academic types, a few of whom were Rhodes Scholars--in other words, they could hold their own in any other arena. They were still unable to craft any persuasive response to my atheist objections. It usually came down to "Well, we just don't know. God has his reasons. Who are we, as mere humans, to judge?".

My philosophy is that if an action wouldn't be justifiable if perpetrated by a human, it shouldn't be justifiable when perpetrated by a god. Old Yahweh shouldn't get a free pass in the morality department.

I will take you up on that challenge. I can explain these things for you. I will say that you will find that the dogmas and such of religion are a lie, fake and the people who follow it are mostly people without understanding who just fill in the blank or say "because the bible say so". So if you are looking for an argument into how dumb peoples beliefs can be, you won't get an argument from me. But if you are an atheist who is truly wanting to find god and understanding, then I can help you there.

It is all very logical and such. I was once in the same boat as you, so had to find answers to similar questions.


[edit on 15-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
No one has yet attempted to refute my argument, from what I can tell, most of the responses are in agreement with my point...

My belief is that the Universe IS God, this erases the Creationism versus Abiogenesis debate because if the Universe is God and life came about due to the Universe than God did create life... It makes sense on a lot of levels if you think about it...

But I, for one, am tired of ignorant people clinging to their dying religions, I say keep your belief in God but forget everything you've been told to believe about God so that your mind can be open to the real truth rather than closed by the blinders of religion...

Hi. The universe is not god. I once thought maybe this was true, but this is not true. The bible says something along the lines of - and god created the heavens, the earth and so on. But then it mentions the spirit of god fills the creation. So let me bring understanding of that to you.

I'll spill the beans for you right out. God is pure consciousness. Consciousness being the part of one that says "I AM". I think, therefore I am. The universe is made up of action and reaction. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is known as logic. If this happens, then this will happen etc. Consciousness doesn't follow this however. A computer for example works off action and reaction, and programs work off logic. They can not truly generate a random number because of it. But real and actual consciousness can. The universe which is only about action and reaction does not have the free will to actually make a choice. It is bound to the logic which "forces" it to do things. This is what makes technology and things like cars work. A Car isn't much of car if it just decides it wants to take you somewhere else. It's because it doesn't have free will and is bound by logic that it functions as we need.

Science as well all but ignores consciousness for this reason. Science is great in the realm of action and reaction. But since consciousness doesn't follow these laws, then they can't do much with it. They need to be able to repeat it in a lab 99.9% of the time before it is provable. When consciousness gets in the way of doing this, they will generally just label it as "random", because that is the closest thing they can see it as.

When religion gets to a place they can't define, they say - god works in mysterious ways. When science gets to the same place, they use random for the same purpose, the big bang, evolution etc. And trying to generate a seemingly random number is about the closest thing you can do to simulating consciousness. Course, it's not really random, nor is it actually consciousness.

Logic is created by consciousness. You can't create consciousness with logic. It is consciousness which is the observer, science forgets the scientist in the equation. Consciousness isn't called consciousness in the old days, it is called heart. It's what machines lack, consciousness/heart. The ability to understand, and has no free will.

What is the only thing which can create something out of nothing? Thought which comes from consciousness! Also sometimes called what god "says" in the creation part. It's like when I write a program(my job), I am writing down words that create the program. No joke. It is exactly what I do. I write down words of logic that create "laws" for the program. So, this is what creates the universe. But it needs the spirit of god(consciousness) to fill it up before it becomes "alive" or real. If there is nobody to observe it, then it's for all effects nonexistent.

Think if you created a video game. You will write down the logic for the program. The PC runs the logic and creates the world. But it is not until you apply your consciousness to the game that it actually comes "alive". Remove your consciousness from the game, game goes away. With me so far?

So 2 levels here. 1 is action and reaction. This is creation/universe.
The other is observation, the state of being aware, action and reaction is replaced by reason and understanding. This is spiritual realm of sorts.

This was known thousands of years ago. If you haven't figured it out yet - you are god, and you are arguing with yourself. That little part of you that is able to be aware is the god within you. This is what Jesus is talking about in John 14:20, when he talks about how the father and Jesus are in you. This what is being referred to when they say the kingdom of heaven is within. This is what gives you free will and so on. To be conscious is very special. It is not of this universe/creation.

Now, father and son relationship. The father/god contains the sum of all consciousness. While you are in part god because of your consciousness, you are not god in total. Thus, you are the son/daughter. This is where things like pride come in. If you put so much pride into yourself that you are putting yourself above others, then you are not seeing or respecting the god that is within that other person. This is also why the sins are called sins against god. Because when you do bad things to another person, then you are doing those things to another part of god. So you are the son of god, and so is everyone else. As the son, or a smaller part of the sum/father we have a limited perspective. The father is greater because he contains all perspectives. And this is why you can never be greater than the father. This is also where Satan goes wrong, as he lets his pride get the best of him, and sees only his consciousness as God, but not in others. And so he seeks to be greater than the father and so on. The deception is just to keep you from seeing the truth, because if you do not realize these things, then you will turn your back on god(without realizing - forgive them father for they know not what they do).

This will maybe also explain things like "the body is the temple of god". Because the body contains and is the vessel for consciousness/god. The body is made up of logic, it is made from the universe, and so it comes "from the dust of the earth".

And so when you realize this, then you can see why Jesus was showing the right way. And when he says don't worry about those who can kill the body, it's because your consciousness isn't going to die. Kind of like you don't die when you die in a video game. Oh, reminds me - the "soul" is just your bit of individuality within the father/spirit(all is connected and 1 truly).

And you are completely right for rejecting the church and so on. I call the christian church the church of Satan. Just a bunch of people who don't understand a thing, and just repeat what they are told by authority. It all makes logical sense. When people of wisdom talk about no logic being able to explain it, it's just talking about there is no logic which can create consciousness. Trying to find logic to explain or create it is pretty well useless - I learned the hard way after spending much time on it.

Study up on consciousness and such a good bit if you want to get closer to god. If you ask yourself questions, the answers will come within. I'll answer any questions I can for you as well. I'll let you chew on this a bit and we can move into more deeper things such as what Jesus is talking about, the book of life(dna library), evolution and so on. You'll need to understand the above first, so let me know if you have any questions.












[edit on 15-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Jacob and his family were invited to live in Egypt by Pharaoh himself (Gen 45:17) and were given the best of the land of Egypt (Gen 45:18). Now some 400 years later (Gen 15:13) the children of Israel were in slavery, but God had promised Abraham that he would bring them out and punish the oppressors.

(Gen 15:13-14 NIV) Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. [14] But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.

You can't get a leg up on God, every bit of history was foretold through divine prophecy from God, The Creator of All. You ask why God didn't just punish Pharoah. The Egyptians persecuted the descendants of Jacob for hundreds of years, it was an entire people who persecuted them, not just Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Well plenty of free will came into play, but God knew his heart would be hardened, and still God was very patient with Pharaoh and gave Pharaoh plenty of opportunities to repent.

(Exo 9:13-17 NIV) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, [14] or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. [15] For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.



[edit on 15-1-2009 by Bombeni]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by paperplanes
I went to a Christian secondary school in which virtually all of the teachers had attended seminary and were very well read with regard to the Christian texts. They were generally very rational, academic types, a few of whom were Rhodes Scholars--in other words, they could hold their own in any other arena. They were still unable to craft any persuasive response to my atheist objections. It usually came down to "Well, we just don't know. God has his reasons. Who are we, as mere humans, to judge?".

My philosophy is that if an action wouldn't be justifiable if perpetrated by a human, it shouldn't be justifiable when perpetrated by a god. Old Yahweh shouldn't get a free pass in the morality department.

I will take you up on that challenge. I can explain these things for you. I will say that you will find that the dogmas and such of religion are a lie, fake and the people who follow it are mostly people without understanding who just fill in the blank or say "because the bible say so". So if you are looking for an argument into how dumb peoples beliefs can be, you won't get an argument from me. But if you are an atheist who is truly wanting to find god and understanding, then I can help you there.

It is all very logical and such. I was once in the same boat as you, so had to find answers to similar questions.

"Atheist" is a more complex assignment than most people realize. It isn't necessary to assert that nothing exists within a spiritual or supernatural realm; indeed, atheists like myself leave that open to possibilities. I do not believe in any god or gods, but would I be so presumptuous as to assert that "There is no supernatural force."? No. I believe that there are many possibilities within this realm, but I don't feel compelled to seek them out. It just isn't of great importance in my life. So in this way, I can appreciate your idea of God as consciousness. I don't feel a great tug or draw to find a god for myself, though.

I'm still a bit vague about your opinions of the Bible. Do you consider yourself a Christian? Do you adhere to the traditional belief that the Bible is the infallible word of God? I noticed that you reference the Bible, but I'm unsure of your thoughts of the book in its entirety.