The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?, page 19

Originally posted by ashanu90
reply to post by NOTurTypical

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okay so god makes a bet with satan to see if job will still worship him
this is a sin known as GAMBLING as well as communicating with the DESTROYER, which is expressley forbiden to mankind so another sin for god so far gods sin count is 2

then we have god killing people left and right because of something they didnt even do (pharoahs hardened heart which god made that way, then he went off and killed egyptian children and blamed the pharoah for what he did, when it was GODS fault for making the pharoah such a jerk anyway)
gods sin count is 4 unless blaming someone else for your actions is not a sin then its 3

then we have god sending people to hell because they dont worship him wich is intolerence

so we have a hypocritical god who, kills, gambles, blames others for his actions, and is intolerant, and he wants you to spend eternity in a sinless heaven with him
also about the gambling thing god knew job would not forsake him right? i mean you christians say he knows everything? so he made a bet knowing the outcome, which IS equal to loading your dice

and people defend this crap?

What are you talking about? God didn't wager anything with Satan. What was God's "bet", God offered nothing to Satan when he tempted Him. Not to mention God is omniscient, He already knew exactly what job would do/say when Satan took everything the man had. How could it have even been a bet when God already knew the outcome before Satan even had the idea to ask God to test Job?? haha

Secondly, mankind is forbidden from talking to Satan, not God, God does whatever He wishes to do... one of the perks of being GOD. Look, it does me NO HARM WHATSOEVER if you wanna hate God. Lucifer is the most powerful creature God created and he got smacked down like a gnat. I'm sure you'll fare well on judgment day when you lay out your grievances against Him.

You: "God, I hate you because you killed the Egyptian firstborn babies and allowed Satan to tempt Job into cursing you."

God: "Anything else?"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

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What are you talking about? God didn't wager anything with Satan. What was God's "bet", God offered nothing to Satan when he tempted Him.

You're right. What God did was even worse than trying to settle a bet because God didn't have any reason to do what he did. Read Job 2:3, God says Satan incited him against Job for no good reason. God literally says there is no purpose for what he's allowed Satan to do.

God does whatever He wishes to do..

So God is not bound by his character? God is not required to act in goodness and righteousness and mercy and love? What a frightening thought, that God might be an almighty tyrant doing whatever he pleases and abusing his power.

You: "God, I hate you because you killed the Egyptian firstborn babies and allowed Satan to tempt Job into cursing you." God: "Anything else?"

A good God doesn't kill children, end of discussion. Its a story written by barbaric primitives and nothing more.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

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So are you denying that years earlier the pharaoh had every firstborn of the Jews killed?

Nope, in fact I stated that in one of my posts. Try reading them again. The Pharaoh commits genocide and is evil because of it. My point is that when man does it we see them as evil but when God does it we have people defending him. If God is more righteous than man than he should not be able to sin the way man does. Killing is a sin, and killing a child is particularly worse, and slaughtering a whole group of them is even worse - God is displaying evil wicked sinful behavior. Rather than punish those responsible, slave owners and soldiers and the Pharaoh himself, God punishes those most innocent. For a human to do what God did would be unforgivable, hence Pharaoh being evil. God should conform to a higher standard than man, not sink into sin with us.

I call that "JUST".

if you think a good God engaging in child murder is just than you are a sick individual. I wash my hands of you, I've done all I can to set you back on the straight and narrow

Speaking of which, God goes from a baby killer to preaching "turn the other cheek" ... BRAIN EXPLODING PARADOX

So you say God is evil, and a tyrant, and a genocidal god huh? Then why are you against Him? I'd be doing everything I could not to piss Him off if I felt the way you did.

Why make this mistake for the umpteenth time. You are once again confusing Doctrine and Dogma with your God. God is not the Bible and the Bible is not the word of God, I've shown that here despite your attempts at apologetics and defending the slaughter of innocent children. I'm not against God, I am against the primitive depiction of God in the Bible. The Bible makes God out to be bi-polar, smiting and killing the innocent, commanding genocide, condoning slavery and then turning around and being merciful the next. The book doesn't offer a coherent image of God and if the bad is weighed against the good than God is depicted as evil. Note that God, if there even is one, is not evil and is not described in this book. I'm not afraid of pissing anyone off, I'm here to awaken people from the indoctrination they've been trapped within (just as I was once). The God of the Bible is a fictional character anyway, lucky for us, if he wasn't a good 98% of humanity would be burning forever because that's the Will of God.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by NOTurTypical

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You're right. What God did was even worse than trying to settle a bet because God didn't have any reason to do what he did. Read Job 2:3, God says Satan incited him against Job for no good reason. God literally says there is no purpose for what he's allowed Satan to do.

Are you kidding me??? The word states that SATAN wanted to move against job without cause:

Job 2:3

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

God read Satan's mind before Satan EVEN spoke his evil idea. But yeah, read that any way your straw man ideology wants to man...

So God is not bound by his character? God is not required to act in goodness and righteousness and mercy and love? What a frightening thought, that God might be an almighty tyrant doing whatever he pleases and abusing his power.

Of course he is bound by His character. You've conveniently CHERRY-PICKED them. God is also perfectly JUST, (You still refuse to admit I'm right that God killed all the firstborn of Egypt because the pharaoh ordered all the firstborn of the Jews murdered, except God did it peacefully when they slept, and pharaoh ordered them all drown in a river in the heat of the day in FRONT of their screaming mothers.) God is perfectly Holy. (Meaning He cannot allow sin in His presence.)

A good God doesn't kill children, end of discussion. Its a story written by barbaric primitives and nothing more.

How absurd, the ancients were every bit as smart as we are today. (Great Pyramids at Giza for example) And secondly, you're PURPOSELY ignoring half the story, God is paying back the Egyptians/Pharaoh for having all the firstborn Jews murdered. but yeah, keep ignoring that fact, at least everyone else reading this debate can plainly see that your house of cards rests firmly on logical fallacies. Cherry-pick some more, it's working WONDERS for you thus far.

lololololol

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by NOTurTypical

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Nope, in fact I stated that in one of my posts. Try reading them again. The Pharaoh commits genocide and is evil because of it. My point is that when man does it we see them as evil but when God does it we have people defending him. If God is more righteous than man than he should not be able to sin the way man does. Killing is a sin, and killing a child is particularly worse, and slaughtering a whole group of them is even worse - God is displaying evil wicked sinful behavior. Rather than punish those responsible, slave owners and soldiers and the Pharaoh himself, God punishes those most innocent. For a human to do what God did would be unforgivable, hence Pharaoh being evil. God should conform to a higher standard than man, not sink into sin with us.

FINALLY you'll admit that I'm correct, What that is called is J U S T I C E. The Word CLEARLY states that what someone does to the nation of Israel God will return that onto them. So we have Pharaoh orders all firstborn of the Jews slaughtered, so then all firstborn of the Egyptians are later slaughtered. Pharaoh's crime was arbitrary and all inclusive, so therefore, so was god's judgment against the Egyptians. Cry some more, at the end of the day God is iSTILL sovereign...

If you think a good God engaging in child murder is just than you are a sick individual. I wash my hands of you, I've done all I can to set you back on the straight and narrow

No, I give God the respect do to Him as God. meaning, he is Lord, He is sovereign, he created this universe so he can do as His will sees fit. Who am I to judge God? I'm not an imbecile to assume my human reasoning and intelligence is superior to His! That's absurd on an exponential scale. he is God, not me.

but even with my minuscule reasoning and comprehension compared to His I can PLAINLY see that it was justice done for the murder of the Jewish firstborn.

Speaking of which, God goes from a baby killer to preaching "turn the other cheek"

Can we stick to one covenant with man at a time? Do you want to discuss the old one or the current one?

Why make this mistake for the umpteenth time. You are once again confusing Doctrine and Dogma with your God. God is not the Bible and the Bible is not the word of God, I've shown that here despite your attempts at apologetics and defending the slaughter of innocent children.

Excuse me, all you've 'shown here' is your arguments are ground FIRMLY on straw-men, cherry-picked attributes of God, and misquotes of the scriptures. The ONLY thing that can be reasonably confirmed thus far is you need to check out a book on logical fallacies from the local library. The ONLY person you've proved your arguments to are yourself and perhaps children who have no comprehension that when logical fallacies are used in an argument it renders the ENTIRE argument invalid. You're created a false version of the God from the Bible and shot down that version in your head that YOU created. BRAAAAVOOOO

I'm not against God, I am against the primitive depiction of God in the Bible. The Bible makes God out to be bi-polar, smiting and killing the innocent, commanding genocide, condoning slavery and then turning around and being merciful the next.

SEE above.

I'm not afraid of pissing anyone off, I'm here to awaken people from the indoctrination they've been trapped within (just as I was once).

Awwwwww, you're our savior??? Lyke, thanks n stuff!!!! I've always wondered when somewonz would come to save me from myself, cuz lyke I can't read myself n stuff. Hahahahahaha, I have no problem WHATSOEVER reading my OWN Bible man. This isn't the time of illiterate men and women relying on what the preacher said as true. I can read and respond to the Bible just fine.

The God of the Bible is a fictional character anyway, lucky for us, if he wasn't a good 98% of humanity would be burning forever because that's the Will of God.

It's not God's will "that ANY should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance." God also will NOT violate your free will, if you or anyone else refuses to repent and take a free gift offered from Him to save your soul then it's your problem, not mine or His.

1/3 of the Bible is prophetic, no other "holy" book can say that about itself. And thus far it's 100% accurate, if that isn't proof that it was inspired by a God that knows the end from the beginning then no other proof exists.

Heck, just 8 prophecies written about Jesus from OT times coming true is the same probability as filling the state of Texas with quarters an inch high, drawing an X on one of them and mixing it in the pile, and having a blindfolded man selected it on the first try at random. And yet, there are over 300 OT prophecies about Jesus's first coming.

But yeah, keep telling yourself it's not God's word.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

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Im not here to debate with you....I need no reply.

But one day, you will get to see, there have been many many markers set up to weight and measure each being, that will show the heavens where the nature of that being resonates, to show the being itself after death, why they needed certain things from Earth and what they are still in need of.

God is not like us, there are natures that God isnt even capable of due to God being unblemished, Holy, Divine.

You have to weigh WHY should we improve on anger, jealousy, hate, ect....if God was this nature of anger , jealousy, hate, ect.

You can play the card all day long that 'well, thee is god, thee creates justice, ect'......

Yes, God creates justice, its a spiritual law embedded within the entire Universe....its called reaping what one sows. It is the best way that we learn....we must learn through understanding....and being forced as spiritual beings, does not bring us understanding.

I used to think it was a shame on God...when I learned that the Bible shows God's nature in some very false lights. Now I see, it was needed, for the people, for if they are not truly seeking and learning through the Holy Spirit....they will fall for a 'belief' that had nothing to do with seeking their most deepest being, which is where the pure light exists.

Its this way because its needed, the beliefs are used as markers to weigh and measure us and our inner nature. Our belief.....is like a mirror.....to what we can accept as 'God'. It is very true....'If you do not know me, I can not know you'......but just because you may walk a path of believing God is that wrathful nature....does not mean the Spirit will not be your comforter, or that Jesus will not be your nurturer, or that God will not allow you to feel the Holy Grace that Thee is so full of. The reason is not because your belief is correct....but because.....you have been, will be, and are.....loved unconditionally. This love is how you have been manifested, this love will one day lead you to understand, the nature of God. One day.....you will understand.....how love.....conquers all things....therefore, is the greatest tool and is also, a silent weapon.

There comes a time, on the spiritual path, beyond here, beyond this sphere....that many will look back through their evolving as spiritual beings, and they will have to abandon some ways in order to move forward. So it is really of no concern, all things are perfect, God is that great, the Universe will sift all souls out as it teaches them and shows them different natures. Course in between death and life, we are in the 'know' and we relearn what we need to know.

I only offer this if there are others who know in their deepest being, the nature of wrath....is not of their most deepest being, therefore, it is not of God. This is how we are to discern....this is how we can find Thee without any book....this is how mankind 'just knew' there was something 'more' before all of these books were even written. Some beliefs though, can only take you so far in experiences, while in this life.

I would not be doing my nature, to come in to where words have been written, trying to justify our most high as using a slaughter of baby's to get thee's way.

Until you SEE God working as a dictator....I would caution you, of this belief. It is so far from the truth. It goes against the nature of God and how Thee works.

Again...I need no reply, I dont want a reply. I only offer you a mirror to glance in.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by skajkingdom

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God GIVES life and only HE has the right to TAKE it again.

Okay, than what about random accidents? And what about murder? If only God has the right to take life than it would be impossible for anything else to kill a human being.

He forbids US to kill one another because it is not we who have the right to take the life.

Like I said, a loving God should behave with more mercy and righteousness than a human being. A loving and merciful God shouldn't break his own commandments.

So, if He wants to take that part back, it is His full right.

God is depicted as a Father figure in the Bible - what kind of Father reserves the right to kill his children? Perhaps a shark devouring its young.

These then got passed on orally, and later also in writing.

And things were lost in translation or altered as this happened. Stories were refined and other tales were eventually tossed out.

For the humanity not to be lost forever, Qur'an was revealed.

I'm not an expert on the Koran, I haven't read through the entire thing. The subject of this discussion is the Bible and the fundamentalist belief that it is inerrant or the Word of God. I believe we must question our beliefs to test their validity, rather than give ourselves over to blind faith.


[edit on 4-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by texastig

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Christ is not God.

Proving that one of the names in the Bible corresponded to a real person doesn't make the book the word of God - any more than proving Plato was real makes the Republic the word of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

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God read Satan's mind before Satan EVEN spoke his evil idea. But yeah, read that any way your straw man ideology wants to man...

Sounds to me like you're the on conjuring strawmen. Read the verse again, nowhere does it mention your idea of God using telepathy to learn Satan's plan. God has already given over Jobs belongings to Satan and now admits, quite plainly, that it was done without cause or reason. If you think it was Satan who had no reason to harm Job than you must think that God HAD a reason to harm to Job.

You've conveniently CHERRY-PICKED them.

Yes I have but this thread is about people who believe the ENTIRE Bible is the inerrant Word of God. If the Bible were the word of a perfect God there wouldn't be any flaws at all. The examples I picked are just a handful of a great many contradictions and logical errors that take place on every other page of the book, not to mention the historical and scientific inaccuracies which prove it was penned by primitives - not God.

God is perfectly Holy. (Meaning He cannot allow sin in His presence.)

Not if he kills children, such would be a sin. If he cannot allow sin in his presence than he would have to depart from his own presence

the ancients were every bit as smart as we are today.

Yeah, that's why they thought blood-letting was a good idea and elements could be turned to gold through alchemy. That's why they believed God had conjured man from dirt. That's why God creates night and day before the sun in Genesis. They might have been good builders and perhaps a few cultures were more advanced than others but those that wrote the Bible were primitive and scientifically illiterate. They actually thought you could fit two of every species that breathes through its nostrils on a giant wooden boat.

And secondly, you're PURPOSELY ignoring half the story, God is paying back the Egyptians/Pharaoh for having all the firstborn Jews murdered.

Actually Pharaoh's actions are a key tenet to my argument, once again you aren't reading along closely enough. What Pharaoh does is evil and yet he is a flawed man. So when a perfect being sins in the same way that Pharaoh does it should be viewed as far more horrific. This story of collateral damage via divine power might have worked in primitive times when infanticide was practiced more widely but it doesn't work in this day and age. Killing children is wrong even as an act of revenge and ESPECIALLY when the murderer is supposed to be a loving God.

A good God does not kill children.

The Word CLEARLY states that what someone does to the nation of Israel God will return that onto them

God should know that punishing children for the sins of the Pharaoh is not justice. Punishing the innocent to punish the wicked is not justice. I would admittedly have less of a problem with the story if God was not directly involved in the slaughter - if perhaps it was the Israelite's idea to go out and get vengeance - and then God could come and stop them before they do the terrible deed. Having a good God commit child murder is not justice.

Cry some more, at the end of the day God is iSTILL sovereign...

Defend your child killing psychopath of a God all you want friend, he's still imaginary.

Who am I to judge God?

I almost wish I was counting the number of times you've made this error. Confusing the Bible with God himself once again. Will you never learn? You can question every single one of your beliefs because they are merely your perception of God that comes from the Bible (and perhaps Church sermons/parental teachings). To question the Bible is not to question God directly but it is questioning what primitive men wrote down and depicted God. The God they depicted is anything but righteous holy and merciful and its okay to admit that because its just a false image - a perception - of God, not the real thing.

cherry-picked attributes of God

Hitler had some good attributes but he was still genocidal and therefore still evil.

The same could be said of the God of the Bible. He shows goodness and mercy when it serves the author to add that to the story but then turns around and commits horrific atrocities that any moral human being would deem horrendous and unforgivable. Therefore he is still, overall, depicted as being evil.

It's not God's will "that ANY should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance."

If God is all powerful than nothing can stand in the way of his Will, not even our free will. By the way, this verse completely contradicts God killing the first born, because they perished without an opprotunity to come to repentance. God seemed willing for them to perish, didn't he?

And don't bring up the fact that your verse is from the New Covenant because if the Bible were the perfect word of God, and God is "the same yesterday today and forever." than it shouldn't matter and contradictions of that type should be impossible.

Heck, just 8 prophecies written about Jesus from OT times coming true is the same probability as filling the state of Texas with quarters an inch high, drawing an X on one of them and mixing it in the pile, and having a blindfolded man selected it on the first try at random. And yet, there are over 300 OT prophecies about Jesus's first coming.

Most of those prophecies aren't even prophecies but are part of a larger story taken out of context in order to be applied to Jesus. Some of the supposed OT prophecies in the Gospels are made up on the spot outright and don't actually exist in the OT. I've never read a Biblical prophecy that was specific in its meaning, they are typically cryptic and vague.

If you feel it helps you can post prophecies you think have come true, it will certainly harm your case less than continuing to defend a child murderer.



[edit on 4-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by texastig

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Christ even said it Himself.

I could say I'm God too and I could write it in a book.

Doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by texastig

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Christ even said it Himself.

I could say I'm God too and I could write it in a book.

Doesn't make it true.

If you did miracles and rose from the dead then I'd listen to you.

What makes it true is the ancient "non-Christian" sources. Jesus walked the earth, did miracles and died and rose from the dead just like the Bible says.
Then you have history.
Then you have prophecy.
Many men have in the past have taken your position. They are gone but the Bible still remains. Let's see what happened to Voltaire:
Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lived on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and started printing thousands of Bibles.
Do you just argue for fun or are you serious?












[edit on 6/5/2010 by texastig]

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