The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?, page 14
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reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 07:56 AM by kadianmaxim
reply to post by Titen-Sxull


The problem with the bible is yes it was written by man with a divine hand. BUT it has fallen into so many different views that we really don't know if it is the word of god. Also the bible doesn't need to be taken in a literal sense but as a big guide on how to live a good christian life AND it still tells you, you FAILED but god is merciful and will judge you accordingly.

Also as stated prior to this post it probably depends on faith. If you believe in the christian god or any other god what so ever. If you believe the christian god then the bible is word. But really its old Jewish law followed by a new testament saying all is forgiven and as long as you believe in Christ then you go to heaven. But that's if your a christian.

-Kadian Maxim


reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 10:26 AM by YellowAlert
reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I believe the Bible is God's Word, and I'll tell you why, although libraries full of books have been written on the subject. If you want expert, scientific opinions, I'd be inclined to go there rather than a forum full of people who sound like they've never read the Bible or researched the idea at all (excluding you, of course). One book I would recommend is Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

Most historians and archeologists acknowledge that the Bible is historically accurate. In fact, it is the most accurate "history book" of the ancient world ever produced. Many stories believed to be myths have been substantiated both by external documentation and archeological evidence. Not one archeological item has ever been found that contradicted a Biblical statement. Also, the content of the books, both OT and NT, have been shown to have changed minimally since being written using ancient texts, i.e., things have not been inserted or deleted by copiers. Of course these things have nothing to do with the Bible being God's Word. But they do show that it is a valid document, not a conglomeration of made up stories changed by man through the ages. If we can depend upon it to be historically accurate, then we cannot just dismiss its spiritual tenets out of hand.

For the Bible to be God's Word, we must seek some supernatural evidences. I know of three. First, there is the book's unity. Sixty-six books written by > 40 authors over 1500 years in three languages over three continents, and the message and theme is completely unified, and, yes, without contradiction taken as a whole. That must be by divine inspiration, which literally means, "God-breathed".

Secondly, there is the books' fulfilled prophecies. There are hundreds of DETAILED prohecies about the future of Israel, other nations, the future of mankind, and the coming of the Messiah that have been fulfilled. Yes, some of these could be explained by the books having been written after the events occurred; but we now have texts for most books going back to way BEFORE they occurred. Just the > 300 detailed facts about the Messiah, such as place of birth, family heritage, betrayal by a friend, mode of death, and supernatural resurrection could have only been revealed and fulfilled by divine power. No other sacred book or prophet (e.g., Nostradamus) can make this claim.

Thirdly, there is the book's power. Countless numbers of lives have been transformed from reading it, mine included. One good source of examples is the book Changed Lives: Miracles of the Passion. It describes how people were acutely affected after watching The Passion of the Christ, admittedly not the Word on paper, but a pretty darn good visual representation of part of it. And there are countless famous people, both ancient and modern, who have believed in the Word after just reading it: not from hearing a preacher, not from going to church, but just reading the Word, often very small portions of it, having never been exposed to it before. For most "believers", this is the main reason they believe. They have a personal experience with the power of the Word, and they have a personal relationship with the God of the Word.

For a more in-depth discussion of what I have said and even more, I recommend you (and others) read "Is the Bible truly God's Word?" on gotquestions.org, and "Is the Bible God's Word?" on truthnet.org.

I would like to talk to you about suffering, but I'm running out of room. See you in my next post.

Very Sincerely Yours


reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 12:05 PM by YellowAlert
Sxull, I completely understand your cynicism about a God who would allow horror to occur, not only in ancient times, but into the present. This question is one of the leading concerns of people who cannot believe in the God of the Bible. Again, a plethora of books have been written on the subject. My favorite is C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain". He was an atheist whose main objection to Christianity was the suffering in the world. He eventually converted. That doesn't mean he (or any other "believer") can explain suffering. We just accept it because that's the way the world is. Creation and people are imperfect, so evil is going to manifest itself, but ultimately God is in control of everything. Yes, that takes a measure of faith. But any world view you live under (and you DO have one) requires faith - either faith in God or gods, nature, society, a political system, yourself, etc. So the God of the Bible cannot be rejected simply because you must exercise faith. You are already doing that.

All that said, most Biblical theologians believe God allows (or causes) suffering for three reasons: either as judgement (punishment), to bring an unbeliever into belief, or to mature the character of a believer. Most of the Old Testament examples you cite were cases of judgement. In all, God had repeatedly warned the subject peoples or individuals to turn to Him through His prophets. (In the case of Pharaoh, the prophet was Moses, etc.) Now, if God is God, that is, all-knowing, eternal, all-present and out of time, and all-powerful, He knows what He is doing. We, in our finite, small minds, cannot even begin to comprehend His reasons. If we could, we would all be god. The God has all authority and He is the perfect judge. So we just have to believe He is acting in love even when it appears not to be so. Don't you do that as a parent? Don't we do that as a society with our policemen? Police are trained not to use force unless absolutely necessary. God does the same. Don't you have "long-suffering" with your children because you love them, but then they finally step over the line, and they just have to be punished, also because you love them? Aren't they "innocent"? Why not just let them do as they wish? Because order must be maintained in the home and society, so someone has to be in authority. God set up our institutions (family, government) so that would be the case. And at the top, over all else, is He. He IS long-suffering, He IS loving, He IS merciful. If He weren't, we'd all already be toast.

If suffering is not judgement, then it is to bring people to God or to refine those who are already His. In the first case, you can't fault God for that, because He wishes that all would believe in Him. He gives us every chance He can. Just like children, some people only respond to extreme measures - death, divorce, financial ruin, sickness. And just because someone is already a believer in the God of the Bible doesn't mean they are immune to suffering or tragedy. We all know that, in spite of what some people teach. God wants to "perfect" His people, so He gives us situations to refine how we react. If you pray for patience, God isn't going to take away all your little irritating little things. He's going to give you more. By practicing the right response, eventually you will be more patient.

Sxull, I recommend you read the Bible, starting with the gospel of John. Also read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, that same converted atheist. In it he explains how he LOGICALLY came to believe in the God of the Bible. Very interesting. Lastly, I would ask that you pray something like this: "God, I don't know if you are real or what you are or who you are. But if you are real, please reveal that to me. I sincerely want to know the truth." Don't bow your head or close your eyes. Look up and stare Him in the face. He promises in His Word that He will answer that prayer.

Very Sincerely Yours


reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 04:28 PM by mastermind77
reply to post by tgambill


this is my point, your reply shows that you have misguided, not well thought out responses to my argument. Pretend for a minuite I think that whatever god is, is leaving us to the machine it built for us to live in. Judgement lol. How can one judge without proper perspective. If you think Gods just going to let you get behind him because you join the winning team, think again. This is one thing i hate about the religious. Hypocrisy, and ignorance disguised as truth. That to me is satan.

But since there is no such thing as Gods or satans. And theres only the universe and your microcosmic part in it. The only argument is the stubborn hearts which propell such visceral I have for people who dont use there eyes and ears properly.

Magick is the science of our universe. We are interfaces built to manipulate and use this energy. Masons use it to enchant money to make people buy things. But what if average decent people started using magick for say ..good. Wouldnt that satisfy any God more than christians and muslims fighting, or jailing drug users for using GOD MADE PLANTS, or...i can go on.

Religion has been wrong, and will continue to be. Oppressive, repressed control freaks who make excuses when they feel the argument is lost on there side.

God, if it exists, made it and set it free, Satan and those who oppose or go with it, will doom themselves because of there own mentality.


reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 06:42 PM by mastermind77
All im saying is that before you accept the words of the past which are fueled by the misunderstandings and mistakes that we still make today, not because we have not accepted jesus or God, but because people cannot stop using false standards like a Christ or God to accuse people, whcih by your bible means that you are filled with the accuser. What a better way to create hell on earth than to set two sides apart, or be a divider like christ is, and them say theyre all wrong. ITs all absurdity. There are only you, your awareness and the elements. You are free within the constrainsts of life to use these, and karma, or time will haunt us all.

Magick is non scientific speak for ions and electrons, being activated and moved by words or motions. Pyramids were inspired by mountains for this very fact.

If all you can do is say im going to hell, im not going to take you seriously. And your not going to change my alledged lucifarian brain which actually was raised lutheran. Which was boring and turned my parents into ungodly godly spazoids..jesus this, god that..WHO CARES. LIVE.

God doesnt make his presence known if there is one, because he wants us to find the NOW, not the NWO.

Maybe the illuminati which wants freedom from the church and useless laws has been corrupted or taken over. Maybe the devil was created as a way to scare ignorant religious spazoids. It sure works lol. Good and evil dont exist, mankind made it up, made up self pity, made up self abuse.. Made up self deception. And i can prove, though you would deny it, that religious people and non religious statists, all suffer from a dellusional state of imposing fiction over fact.

War, oppression and genocide mark the trail of religious and statist deceit.
True peace is through true understanding.
TO gain that , your mind must be pried open with a crowbar

[edit on 20-1-2009 by mastermind77]


reply posted on 20-1-2009 @ 07:13 PM by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by YellowAlert


Thank you for the well thought out and interesting reply, it truly was a breath of fresh air


That being said I cannot fully agree. While the Bible may offer minimal historic insight many of the supernatural stories therein are not historically verified. The Great Flood, for instance, could not have taken place literally, while a regional flood might have indeed corresponded to the story there is no way that the entire Earth's surface could be flooded (by rainfall) or that a boat of any size (let alone the dimensions given in the Bible) could have held the millions of species living on Earth. There is also zero evidence of people living well into their 800 or 900th year of life, of a talking serpent in the Garden of Eden, or of any of the numerous myths and legends talked about in the Bible. While there may not be evidence directly contradicting many of these stories the extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

There are many books that were tossed out of the Bible, in fact tonight on the History-International Channel (here in the USA at least) there is a show called Banned From the Bible on talking about the documents and books thrown out of the Bible. I don't see a book without contradictions, I see a book with many glaring contradictions that are present even when viewed in context, my Op mentions a few. God is called loving and yet does these terrible things, sometimes against innocent people. Note that I am not trying to say the Bible has no spiritual or philosophical value, in fact there are lots of stories, parables, life lessons, and proverbs that I still carry with me from my time as a Christian.

Biblical Prophecies do not impress me (in fact no prophecies impress me, I'm a big skeptic on the ability to predict the future), they are fairly vague. The Messianic Prophecies are intriguing, I cannot sit here and say that Jesus wasn't a savior but the archeological/historical evidence does not even prove he existed, let alone help back up the prophecies he supposedly fulfilled. Evidence may come out in the future but right now its unproven. The Bible does not predict anything definitively from what I've read and the prophecies are left open to interpretation (as is much of the Bible)...

All I'm saying is that the Bible is flawed, and is not the perfect word of a perfect God but the imperfect interpretation of God and the world as written by men. If you are still convinced it is the Word of God I'd love to debate with you some more and take a look at the evidence, who knows maybe you'll convince me



reply posted on 21-1-2009 @ 07:10 PM by undo
reply to post by Blue_Jay33


i use to believe this as well. i do believe God has the power to protect what He wishes, but I also believe as free will agents, we effect the balance of power and knowledge. this is even more glaringly obvious if you read what the texts are saying and do a comparative analysis.

for example, Jesus mentions that the Mosaic law regarding divorce was not God-inspired. It was Moses-inspired. The Old Testament is full of many potential examples of concepts advanced by humans, not by God, which have caused various problems and relieved other problems. In effect, the text is extremely useful and full of important data, but also contains errors.

the most glaring errors are translation errors. for example, using a strong's concordance, look up every occurance for the word MEN and the word LORD in Genesis 18.

also, look up:
enosh?
adam?
iysh?

english just isn't flexible enough to handle the hebrew, chaldean and aramic languages of the old testament, especially the hebrew, which is full of layered symbols.

[edit on 21-1-2009 by undo]


reply posted on 21-1-2009 @ 07:45 PM by YellowAlert
reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Titen-Sxull, I had this funny feeling you wouldn't agree with everything I said.

You are still concerned about God's treatment of peoples in the Old Testament. That is understandable. Death is never anything to be flippant about. I stated that their treatment was God's judgement. I still maintain that stance. Because God is fully love, and also fully righteous, He MUST punish disobedience. To do otherwise would be against His nature. (As an aside, the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Because He is all knowing, all powerful, and eternal, it follows that He cannot change. Proof left to the reader).

Specifically, God had a defined region where he wanted the Israelites, His chosen people, to settle. He chose a nation to be His so that He could preserve a line from which the Messiah would come. He wanted this people to remain "pure", i.e., not infected by the pagans in the land they were to settle, who not only worshipped false gods, but enaged in heinous behaviours such as bestiality and child sacrifice. (These facts are documented extra-Biblically). The nations of the Promised Land knew the Israelites were coming, and their God's reputation preceeded them. Some fled in terror. Others joined them (for example, the Gibeonites). Some remained to resist the incoming Israelites. This was their choice. God ordered complete annihilation because He knew if any remained, they would mingle with the Israelites and make them turn from God. And indeed, this is what eventually happened, because the Israelites disobeyed and did not destroy everything completely. Did God kill innocents along with the evil? I don't believe so. Look at Abraham's conversation with God when He was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He said He would spare the city if there were found as few as ten righteous people within. Alas, ten were not found and He destroyed the cities anyway. Even so, He sent angels ("messengers") to remove Lot, his wife, and his daughters to safety, almost by force because they were so reluctant to leave. God also had mercy on Rahab, who was saved from the destruction of Jericho because of the faith she had demonstrated in the God of Israel. I conclude that God is sensitive and never indiscriminate in His judgements. For a more in-depth discussion, I suggest you read "Why did God order Israel to kill men, women, and children?" on sowhatgod.wordpress.com.

You are correct, no one can prove a talking serpent, a talking donkey (Balaam's donkey), the sun standing still, or the earth turning backward, all of which are mentioned in the Old Testament. Like I said before, some things have to be taken on faith. No matter what your belief system, you must at some point demonstrate faith.

The long lifespans mentioned in the Bible are not unique. Many other ancient cultures have records of persons living to be centuries old. And practically every culture in the history of the world has a flood story. These stories are remarkably coherent. That brings us to the Genesis Flood, for which there is MUCH evidence. If there had been a global flood, what would you expect to find? Millions of dead things laid down in rock layers all over the earth. And what do you find? Precisely that. No scientist, evolutionary or not, can explain why there are fossil fields all over the earth containing MILLIONS of dead animals piled together, all obviously having died a violent death and having been covered almost instantaneously with mud without using the word "flood". Just look at the literature and you will see it.

I want to say more about the flood, but I am almost out of room, so I'll continue in my next post.

Very Sincerely Yours


reply posted on 21-1-2009 @ 10:18 PM by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by YellowAlert


But if God must punish the wicked why are so many in our world today wicked, greedy, and downright evil and yet they are many times the most wealthy, powerful, and blessed. Good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people.

It seems that God does change, at least he changes his MIND from the OT to NT, he decides to send his son and set up a new covenant, one where mercy and peace, as opposed to the swift eye-for-an-eye justice of the OT are at the forefront. They set aside the law and Jesus delivers his two commandments to replace the ten (Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself). So God does seem to change, he seems willing to allow the wicked to be evil and get away with it without punishment (at least until Judgment Day). God is also supposedly fair, but how is an eternal fiery hell with "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" simply for disbelief at all fair?

There was plenty of pagan influence in early Israel, its all over the Bible, Solomon led astray by pagan wives, Golden Calf, all that stuff, so apparently the slaughter of all those civilizations in their way didn't cleanse the pagan influence so well as God thought it would.... I'm sure plenty of wicked people got away with plenty of evil in Old Testament times and surely the first born of Egypt deserved no judgment for the sins of the Pharaoh, or Job's children, surely Job did not deserve his fate...

And then there's that whole Song of Solomon, its like a soft core pornography in the middle of the Bible, what's that doing there?

I'm not saying your God doesn't exist, merely that the Bible is an imperfect book and therefore cannot be the perfect word of a perfect God...

As for the Flood that is an interesting story, I've done a little bit of research and you're right time after time ancient civilizations talk about a deluge. One of the most interesting theories I've heard was that the Flood took place because of melting ice after the ice age. In the Epic of Gilgamesh version of the flood (which, if I'm not mistaken, is the oldest version they've found so far) the gods decide to kill off humanity because we're too noisy


I just don't see it the way you do. The contradictions seem too glaring and the logical arguments too strong, as well as the crimes committed by Christianity (and other religions) over the years... I think religion is a way to keep our minds closed so that we only have a little piece of the picture of God, the Universe, and Everything...

I await your reply


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