Still Unsolved: The Mystery of China's Celtic Mummies

I dont know if this has been covered before but this article which I also read in the latest, "Hard Evidence" magazine suggests that a lot of our understandings of past civilisations could be somewhat not at all completely true.

www.independent.co.uk...

www.meshrep.com...

reply to post by Epsillion70


Central Asia tended to be the home to many nomadic tribes. The mummies came from the far West of what is now China

citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.

This culture existed before people made the decision to call one hunk of land 'Asia' and another part 'Europe', the terms are meaningless when you go back far enough in history.

Very Interesting topic! I was riveted when watching the Discovery documentary on this a while back. I especially found the tartan-like fabric found with the mummies to be compelling. It's also amazing that China never covered this up.

IRM

The cannot really cover it up because the caucasoid descendants of these people are still there today.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Very Interesting topic! I was riveted when watching the Discovery documentary on this a while back. I especially found the tartan-like fabric found with the mummies to be compelling. It's also amazing that China never covered this up.

IRM

Howdy IR

Why would the Chinese want to 'cover up' the bodies of nomadic people who lived in a part the country they didn't control until much later??

reply to post by Hanslune

Things can get highly political in China for reasons that aren't entirely clear to us. From the Independent:

The very thought that Caucasians were settled in a part of China thousands of years before Wu Di's early contacts with the west and Marco Polo's travels has enormous political ramifications. And that these Europeans should have been in restive Xinjiang hundreds of years before East Asians is explosive.

The Chinese historian Ji Xianlin, writing a preface to Ancient Corpses of Xinjiang by the Chinese archaeologist Wang Binghua, translated by Professor Mair, says China "supported and admired" research by foreign experts into the mummies. "However, within China a small group of ethnic separatists have taken advantage of this opportunity to stir up trouble and are acting like buffoons. Some of them have even styled themselves the descendants of these ancient 'white people' with the aim of dividing the motherland. But these perverse acts will not succeed," Ji wrote.

Many Uighurs consider the Han Chinese as invaders. The territory was annexed by China in 1955, and the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region established, and there have been numerous incidents of unrest over the years. In 1997 in the northern city of Yining there were riots by Muslim separatists and Chinese security forces cracked down, with nine deaths. There are occasional outbursts, and the region remains very heavily policed.

Not surprisingly, the government has been slow to publicise these valuable historical finds for fear of fuelling separatist currents in Xinjiang.

So they might not have covered it up, but they haven't shouted it from the rooftops either.

A history of China, and who was and wasn't Chinese, can get very confusing. Just reading John Mann's book on Ghengis Khan and he talks of visiting a Chinese museum dedicated to the Mongolian Emperor. The curator, as he takes him round, keeps referring to Ghengis coming from Inner Mongolia and refers to him as if he was Chinese. John stops to ask him about this and the conversation is something like:

John: do you mean to say that Ghengis is Chinese?
Curator: of course, he started the Yuan dynasty didn't he?
John: well...kind of, yes.
Curator: and the Yuan dynasty was Chinese?
John: err, yes
Curator: well then, Ghengis Kahn as Chinese wasn't he?

Mr Mann does see the logic in it, and we have certainly done similar things with European history.

Confusingly, many of the regions of China that Ghengis conquered were actually ruled by previous invaders, such as the Tangut who were originally another nomadic tribe.

Although China is 95% Han, they are at great pains to claim China is composed of "56 nationalities". Maybe at some point they will claim the Celts were one of Chinese nationalities, and therefore Europe is in fact populated by Chinese people

Edit: to get historian's name right! Ooops.


[edit on 14/1/09 by FatherLukeDuke]

Howdy Father

Well Europe and Africa are part of the Asian continent. So yes they are all Asian!

Yes I understand about the far west provinces and the current unrest there. As noted the information on the nomads there tends to continue to get out and published.

It is interesting that the Han which make up over 90% of the population don't all speak the same language. I grew up around Hakka and Cantonese speakers. Zhonghua minzu the concept of a 'Chinese' nationality seems well in place. Although the southern part of China has had a tendency to break away from the North on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Hanslune
It is interesting that the Han which make up over 90% of the population don't all speak the same language. I grew up around Hakka and Cantonese speakers. Zhonghua minzu the concept of a 'Chinese' nationality seems well in place. Although the southern part of China has had a tendency to break away from the North on a regular basis.

It's confusing for us Westerners to grasp - though I suspect Europe isn't any easier for a Chinese person to grasp - imagine trying to explain Belgium to them...

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke


The Han seems to be a group much like the Slavs, who speak related but difficult to understand languages amongst themselves, like the Turkic people...

it is not surprsinge that people can find this caucasian looking mummy in west china,even now you look at the local uyghur people,you may find the obvious trace of caucasian traits.










[edit on 22-1-2009 by beijingxizhimen]

Thanks for those picks I have always wondered how some Chinese peoples do look Celtic in appearance. Though I thought it might of been the Aryan influence of the middle east.
Even the Suomi people of Finland have intrigued me

it shows that caucasians (europeans) original homeland 4000 years was really china not Europe. They only came to Europe in the Goths invasion of Europe just 1500 years ago. they were living around a lake of fresh water in Tekla Makan (now a desert) this lake emptied in the infamous flood and caused the Caucasians to roam the earth in a west direction across central asia then Europe and finally America.

this shows us that the caucasians' (europeans) original homeland 4000 years ago was really china not Europe!!. They only came to Europe in the Goths invasion of Europe just 1500 years ago. they were living around a lake of fresh water in Tekla Makan (now a desert) this lake emptied in the infamous flood deluge and caused the Caucasians to roam homelessly in caravans of carts (gog and Magog) the earth in a west direction across central asia then Europe and finally America.

From the article: \"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Kyrgyzs, the peoples of central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story,"\

Its correct!
But would be interesting to see the DNA results of the mummies to understand why they refer them to the Celts...
Anybody can find them?
Im sure this topic maybe related to the issue about the origin of the native americans discussed here on ats...
Link
here I see the same explanation of the mummies and their origins (i.e the other group of the same origin that stayed in Asia!.
Quote:
'Among other tribes, diversified genetically, there existed in Asia (Siberia= asia+Eurasia) a tribe, the progenitresses of which were four or five women - 26 000 y.a A part of this tribe moved through Siberia to the Beringia (there was land then at the place where the Bering strait now is), following the divergent glaciers..
This tribe settled first in the Beringia, then moved to the North America and then to the South America< where it gave origin to hundreds of tribes and peoples... The other part of the tribe stayed in Asia. And there it produced several ethnicities that contstantly interacted and mixed with the surrounding tribes and peoples... The cleanest genepool as i have mentioned belongs to the Tuva people and Soiotes...75%
The russian and american scientists came to the identical results: they looked for the repetition of DNA chain, known as 9RA, inherent to the native americans (every second one!). They found it in two peoples in the Siberia (the ones i mentioned above!)... '

I guess if they check the peoples of Siberia region they will get the initial location of the peoples found in China... China is not America, its close


here for you pics of the Altai princess or te Ukok princess
Compare with Lulan

teh altai princess reconstruction

mummy

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Russi]

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Russi]

Originally posted by adnanmuf
this shows us that the caucasians' (europeans) original homeland 4000 years ago was really china not Europe!!. They only came to Europe in the Goths invasion of Europe just 1500 years ago.

Think you might be a bit confused here. 1500 years ago, in 509, the Goths ruled Italy - filling the vacuum left by the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476.

In 376 they, and other tribes, had started flooding across the Roman borders (Danube and Rhine) probably in response to the Hun arriving on the Hungarian planes...but there isn't any way you could call this an "invasion of Europe" as they were already in Europe.

The Goths had been around since at least the 3rd century, and were the decedents of other proto-German speaking tribes from Nothern Europe who'd been arond for much longer.

I'm curious as to which invasion you were referring to?

I have always had an affinity towards the Mongol peoples of the Steppe.
Even though I am from an anglo-celtic ancestry I have felt a deep sense of unity with these peoples.

The Goths had been around since at least the 3rd century

goths enetred europe in 50 AD ( Tacitus "Germanica" describesd the Goths German tribes enetering germany for the first time.
however the Goths started the mass ethnic cleansing after they crossed the Danube in Valens time (they killed him too) and started 200 years of genocide of the Black eyed black haired Celts and latins (Latins romans and celts all spoke Latin branches languages). The goths spoke German languages (Gothic languages).

this period ~500 AD to 700 Ad is called the Freewanderung where the Goths wandered in Europe killing all the Europpeans of the time (celts=black eyes black haired people=J2 and I haplogroups) and replacing them with themselves (the Goths=R1 haplogroups=colored eyed light haired people).

The Homeland of the current Europpeans (Scaldians=goths, scythians, caucasians what ever you like to name them) was in China in current day Bijin and around, then they moved inland in around gobi desert and Tarim basin desert(taklamakan) both were lakes in 4000 BC.

The flood of Noah happened on them when the lakes burst open on them (the deluge). Their remnants moved across the steppes and some eneterd Scania (land of the Scaldians their name since they descend from Scyld and Gotha Frye etc)
Berik in 1500 BC moved in three ships with the Goths and crossed the Baltic sea then they settled in the Caucasus (naming the area in their name ) since Caucasus means land of Cauc or Gog (Gogasus).

then lived in Ukraine then crossed Danube and Poland rivers into Europe starting 50 Ad then Amalric destroyed Rome (Visigoth=western goths)
Engle a tribe of the Goths settled in England and gave it their name (Engle-land=england!), and finally in 1500 AD they discovered America and flushed across the oceans (Europpean Expansion 1500 AD-2000 AD=Colonialism) where they killed natives and replaced them with themselves (Americas, South Africa, Australia, Russia among many places)
that is why the Haplogroup R1 represent 2 billion [people (1/3 of the earthj population) as compared to 30 million when they started in 1500 AD when they left Europe heading west)

4000 BC living in North China their alloted homeland (tarim mummies), then Taklamakan, then central asia, then Caucasus (ezekiel chapter 38-40 700 BC), then Ukraine 500 BC (Darius the Great envasion of the Goths (Para Saka= Scyldian of behind the sea (Black sea), where Darius tortured them and cut their numbers in third) and then petitioned Roman Caesar Valen in around 380 AD to let them cross the Danube west) Valen permitted them (big mistake) because they were planning to take Europe which they did) and the rest is history

adnanmuf, that's certainly a fascinating new history of the Goths, not one I've ever seen before. Shame it isn't supported by the evidence, or even make any sense.

It's like you've taken a real history, put all the words in a box, shaken thoroughly and tipped them out to make a new history.

then Ukraine 500 BC (Darius the Great envasion of the Goths (Para Saka= Scyldian of behind the sea (Black sea), where Darius tortured them and cut their numbers in third) and then petitioned Roman Caesar Valen in around 380 AD to let them cross the Danube west) Valen permitted them (big mistake) because they were planning to take Europe which they did) and the rest is history

Darius tortured the Goths?! Then petitioned Valens 880 years later to let them cross the Danube?!?

I suspect you are on the wind up...

china is part of the same land mass as europe, it is pretty obvious that someone would have traveled from europe to the far east at some point and settled down, just for the hell of it. it might take a few years but it is a doable journey.

it's good that the evidence now exists to ground it enough to make it worth adding to the history books.

reply to post by Epsillion70


Actually these mummies have now been proven to be defacto european Celts. This was verified using DNA profiling, textile examination by ancient textile experts, and tool analysis.
So there you have it: europeans brought technology and civilzation to the Chinese thousands of years before the first chinese dynasty. I bet the chinese communist party hates these mummies!! Lol!