reply to post by pteridine
i dont care about the damge
i never even mentioned that we where (me and you ) talking about jet fuel
and sorry its open air burn is under 600 degrees f true or false?
Explosives in the WTC 7 bought it down...I believe now..., page 12
privacy
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 11:30 AM by pteridine
reply to post by lycopersicum
Lyco,
I was answering Anok's post.
Open air burn temperature of diesel doesn't matter. The burn was inside a building where the walls can radiate heat back to the fire. Diesel fuel might have not been important because the fires were mainly from office contents and combustible construction materials. This was claimed in WTC 1 and 2, also, saying the Jet-A started the fires and spread them vertically but, once burnt out, office contents continued to burn unchecked until the buildings collapsed.
The temperatures calculated in computer models of the WTC7 fire are consistent with Doctor Fire's numbers of air temps of around 1000 C. This is an accepted value in structural fires. Given that, it was estimated floor temps above the fire were in the 600+ C ranges. The floor supports were being heated at the time and were below that temperature but still hot.
The NIST report, linked in a previous post, recommended a change in century-old building codes that would consider the column, trusses and floor supports, as a whole, and the effects of uncontrolled fire on the system.
Lyco,
I was answering Anok's post.
Open air burn temperature of diesel doesn't matter. The burn was inside a building where the walls can radiate heat back to the fire. Diesel fuel might have not been important because the fires were mainly from office contents and combustible construction materials. This was claimed in WTC 1 and 2, also, saying the Jet-A started the fires and spread them vertically but, once burnt out, office contents continued to burn unchecked until the buildings collapsed.
The temperatures calculated in computer models of the WTC7 fire are consistent with Doctor Fire's numbers of air temps of around 1000 C. This is an accepted value in structural fires. Given that, it was estimated floor temps above the fire were in the 600+ C ranges. The floor supports were being heated at the time and were below that temperature but still hot.
The NIST report, linked in a previous post, recommended a change in century-old building codes that would consider the column, trusses and floor supports, as a whole, and the effects of uncontrolled fire on the system.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 02:53 PM by ANOK
Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by ANOK
I DID NOT SAY IT MELTED I SAID IT BUCKLED THE STEEL!
Typical conspiracy loon - twisting everything
Even if steel did not melt the fire caused it to buckle from the stress
What about the other examples I provided - in each case heat from fires caused steel to warp
That was the original debunker argument. But the steel didn't buckle either, it was re-used if you read the article. But so what? What has that got to do with the towers collapsing? The bridge had direct heat to a large area of the bridge. The towers had no known direct heat to the core columns, only what NIST assumed, and what direct heat there was would only be a very small percenatge of the overall steel in the building.
Seriously apples and oranges. Yes typical debunker non-argument that we have to waste time explaining over and over again.
Yes steel can warp from fire, I'm not saying it wouldn't. But you are expecting thousands of tons of bolted and welded steel columns to just completely, globally and symmetrically, fail from office fires on a few floors.
If you really read what I'm saying you will see that I don't work in extremes like you guys want to, you expect the worst possible outcome from the least possible cause. I don't disagree with what your saying fire can do, but you want an office fire to act like a furnace, it just ain't going to happen.
I implore you once again to test this for yourself. You've ignored this request before, why is that, are you scared of the results you will find? Or do you already know...
My hypothesis can be tested in a lab, can you test yours? That is what science is all about.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 03:15 PM by lycopersicum
reply to post by ANOK
i totally agree whith your assesment
for some reason thermodynamics seem to have left the building with all that evacuated acorrding to most debunkers
just amazes me how people can ignore the laws of thermodynamics
once agin i applaud you
and if anyone needs a refresher here
en.wikipedia.org...
this one plays the biggest role in all the fire construction fire situation
en.wikipedia.org...
of of this law this is the most important rule of it all en.wikipedia.org...
there was structural concrete , and gypsum board (doubled up each sheet being 1/2 thick so 1 inch total surrounding the inside hall way wall leading to where the core columns where
and the surface area of the floor was an acre (do most of you even realize that ??) thats a huge amount of concrete 4 inches thick with 1 inc steel rebar lattice fram inside the concrete all of it wich absorbs heat
listen to ANOK he is spot on
I BOW to you sir
[edit on 19-1-2009 by lycopersicum]
i totally agree whith your assesment
for some reason thermodynamics seem to have left the building with all that evacuated acorrding to most debunkers
just amazes me how people can ignore the laws of thermodynamics
once agin i applaud you
and if anyone needs a refresher here
en.wikipedia.org...
this one plays the biggest role in all the fire construction fire situation
en.wikipedia.org...
of of this law this is the most important rule of it all en.wikipedia.org...
there was structural concrete , and gypsum board (doubled up each sheet being 1/2 thick so 1 inch total surrounding the inside hall way wall leading to where the core columns where
and the surface area of the floor was an acre (do most of you even realize that ??) thats a huge amount of concrete 4 inches thick with 1 inc steel rebar lattice fram inside the concrete all of it wich absorbs heat
listen to ANOK he is spot on
I BOW to you sir
[edit on 19-1-2009 by lycopersicum]
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 03:33 PM by pteridine
reply to post by ANOK
Anok,
As much as you like the open air burn temperatures you find in Wikipedia, they are of absolutely no importance here. Yes, a closed space is like a furnace. Broken windows and air ducts provide the draft and the fuel is what is in there to burn. No, it is not most efficient. The air temperatures will reach 1000 C in an office fire. This does not need interpretation or estimation because it has been measured.
Even with air temperatures around 1000 C, it took a long time for the steel structure to heat up to even 400 C because it had much more thermal mass than the air, but as it heaed up, it still expanded. It didn't all heat at the same rate and didn't expand at the same rate, which was the cause of failure.
Anok,
As much as you like the open air burn temperatures you find in Wikipedia, they are of absolutely no importance here. Yes, a closed space is like a furnace. Broken windows and air ducts provide the draft and the fuel is what is in there to burn. No, it is not most efficient. The air temperatures will reach 1000 C in an office fire. This does not need interpretation or estimation because it has been measured.
Even with air temperatures around 1000 C, it took a long time for the steel structure to heat up to even 400 C because it had much more thermal mass than the air, but as it heaed up, it still expanded. It didn't all heat at the same rate and didn't expand at the same rate, which was the cause of failure.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 03:46 PM by lycopersicum
reply to post by pteridine
you have never seen an open hearth furnace have ?
i dont even really know how to coment on what u say
did you even read the laws of Thermodynamics?
and did u see any of the fire balls out side the towers??
they where huge as big as two football fields , look at any videos of the initial fire burst and look how far past each side of the building the flame goes,
then understand the building was 210 feet by 210 feet (you do realize that right?
so most of the fuel burned up on impact, and left very lttle inside the building itself ,but yes it did start the office fire inside,
but pockets of fire where reported not infernoes as all are lead to believe
the firemen radio transmition even says that very thing
agin read anoks post he is spot on
and why do people chose to ignore the fundamental bases of the fire itself which is governed by thermodynamics ?? WHY ?
you have never seen an open hearth furnace have ?
i dont even really know how to coment on what u say
did you even read the laws of Thermodynamics?
and did u see any of the fire balls out side the towers??
they where huge as big as two football fields , look at any videos of the initial fire burst and look how far past each side of the building the flame goes,
then understand the building was 210 feet by 210 feet (you do realize that right?
so most of the fuel burned up on impact, and left very lttle inside the building itself ,but yes it did start the office fire inside,
but pockets of fire where reported not infernoes as all are lead to believe
the firemen radio transmition even says that very thing
agin read anoks post he is spot on
and why do people chose to ignore the fundamental bases of the fire itself which is governed by thermodynamics ?? WHY ?
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 04:55 PM by esdad71
reply to post by lycopersicum
It is clear in the videos from that day that there were not just'pockets of fire'. You are misquoting a fireman, one of the first responders, who said they found pockets of fire during the initial ascent before they had even reached the floors that were hit. These fires were due to the jet fuel that fell during the initial impact.
The WTC is huge as it was built to extract the maximum office space possible which gave it the unique design that was its eventual downfall. Have you ever worked in an office environment? There was plenty to burn for quite awhile and it was fed by the broken windows as well as the windows people broke after impact.
It is clear in the videos from that day that there were not just'pockets of fire'. You are misquoting a fireman, one of the first responders, who said they found pockets of fire during the initial ascent before they had even reached the floors that were hit. These fires were due to the jet fuel that fell during the initial impact.
The WTC is huge as it was built to extract the maximum office space possible which gave it the unique design that was its eventual downfall. Have you ever worked in an office environment? There was plenty to burn for quite awhile and it was fed by the broken windows as well as the windows people broke after impact.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 07:51 PM by lycopersicum
reply to post by esdad71
(9/11 Commission Report, United Flight 175 impacted the South Tower, "crashing through the 77th to 85th floors".)
if im not mistaken the fire men where at the spot of impact they where on the 78th floor
scroll down to the actual transcript of the transmision
and sorry it was transmitted seconds before the colapse
so i guess these firmen on this site are all liers
firefightersfor911truth.org...
(“10-45 Code Ones” is referential to dead bodies)
It is extremely noteworthy that the radio transmissions of Battalion 7 Chief Orio Palmer and the radio responses to it literally occurred only seconds prior to the total collapse in WTC 2. According to the official U.S. government explanation, at that moment there should have been massive structural failings at that section of the building at that time. Therefore, according to the official version, the firefighters should have been rushing panic-struck to evacuate anyone that they could and as rapidly as they could, including themselves. Yet they are not doing so. What they are doing at that moment, in reality, is calmly and professionally preparing to move up to floor 79 to rescue more people. Below are their transmissions from moments before the collapse:
LADDER 15:
“Chief, what stair you in?”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“South stairway Adam, South Tower.”
LADDER 15:
“Floor 78?”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Ten-four. Numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.”
LADDER 15:
“Fifteen.”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched, we could use some water on it, knock it down, ’kay?”
LADDER 15:
“Alright, ten-four. We’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair. I’ll be right to you.”
BATTALION 7 OPERATIONS TOWER ONE:
“Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine. Need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, ’kay?”
BATTALION NINE:
“Alright, I’m on my way up, Orio.”
At 9:55 a.m. is the final radio transmission from Battalion Chief Palmer and Fire Marshall Bucca, as the building suddenly and literally implodes:
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Battalion Seven. Ladder 15–”
At that moment F.D.N.Y. Battalion Seven Commander Orio Palmer and Fire Marshall Ronald Bucco were both killed in action, along with 341 fellow members of F.D.N.Y. who were unable to evacuate in time because the buildings imploded suddenly and without warning.
in this pic you can see just how much fuel was burned up look at the size of the fireball it would fill to football stadiums , fore scale the towers where 210 feet wide
look at the north tower look at the black smoke
www.serendipity.li...
thats a fire trying to consume office stuff with out enough oxygen,its burning but not very efficiently,
when you light a torch and the black soot comes from the tip, untill u open the oxygen valve more
( sidenote , if a fire is hot enough to melt steel there would absolutely no black smoke,2750 degrees which is melting temp for steel , would consume any office stuff with out any black smoke , when they add flux in the open hearth furnace they just chunk the whole bag right in the molten steel , the bag is completely consumed in seconds )
[edit on 19-1-2009 by lycopersicum]
(9/11 Commission Report, United Flight 175 impacted the South Tower, "crashing through the 77th to 85th floors".)
if im not mistaken the fire men where at the spot of impact they where on the 78th floor
scroll down to the actual transcript of the transmision
and sorry it was transmitted seconds before the colapse
so i guess these firmen on this site are all liers
firefightersfor911truth.org...
(“10-45 Code Ones” is referential to dead bodies)
It is extremely noteworthy that the radio transmissions of Battalion 7 Chief Orio Palmer and the radio responses to it literally occurred only seconds prior to the total collapse in WTC 2. According to the official U.S. government explanation, at that moment there should have been massive structural failings at that section of the building at that time. Therefore, according to the official version, the firefighters should have been rushing panic-struck to evacuate anyone that they could and as rapidly as they could, including themselves. Yet they are not doing so. What they are doing at that moment, in reality, is calmly and professionally preparing to move up to floor 79 to rescue more people. Below are their transmissions from moments before the collapse:
LADDER 15:
“Chief, what stair you in?”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“South stairway Adam, South Tower.”
LADDER 15:
“Floor 78?”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Ten-four. Numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.”
LADDER 15:
“Fifteen.”
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched, we could use some water on it, knock it down, ’kay?”
LADDER 15:
“Alright, ten-four. We’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair. I’ll be right to you.”
BATTALION 7 OPERATIONS TOWER ONE:
“Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine. Need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, ’kay?”
BATTALION NINE:
“Alright, I’m on my way up, Orio.”
At 9:55 a.m. is the final radio transmission from Battalion Chief Palmer and Fire Marshall Bucca, as the building suddenly and literally implodes:
BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER:
“Battalion Seven. Ladder 15–”
At that moment F.D.N.Y. Battalion Seven Commander Orio Palmer and Fire Marshall Ronald Bucco were both killed in action, along with 341 fellow members of F.D.N.Y. who were unable to evacuate in time because the buildings imploded suddenly and without warning.
in this pic you can see just how much fuel was burned up look at the size of the fireball it would fill to football stadiums , fore scale the towers where 210 feet wide
look at the north tower look at the black smoke
www.serendipity.li...
thats a fire trying to consume office stuff with out enough oxygen,its burning but not very efficiently,
when you light a torch and the black soot comes from the tip, untill u open the oxygen valve more
( sidenote , if a fire is hot enough to melt steel there would absolutely no black smoke,2750 degrees which is melting temp for steel , would consume any office stuff with out any black smoke , when they add flux in the open hearth furnace they just chunk the whole bag right in the molten steel , the bag is completely consumed in seconds )
[edit on 19-1-2009 by lycopersicum]
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 09:19 PM by pteridine
reply to post by Nick_X
Secret material would be in fireproof containers. If the building had not collapsed, the area would have been controlled. With the north face capping the wreckage, it's unlikely anyone slipped in to find the goodies.
There is no reason to cause the collapse of a building for any files kept in a field office.
Secret material would be in fireproof containers. If the building had not collapsed, the area would have been controlled. With the north face capping the wreckage, it's unlikely anyone slipped in to find the goodies.
There is no reason to cause the collapse of a building for any files kept in a field office.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 09:37 PM by thedman
reply to post by vze2xjjk
The "pods" you claim on the under side of the planes are fairings covering
the landing gear
Every 767 has them
Underside of 767
When I looked at video stills of the second plane from the underside a long"double bulge" extending the length of the fuselage could have been added as more fuel tank for greater distance or explosive capability. It was probably a drone plane and was probably guided from a nearby vantage point such as bldg 7.Then when Bldg 7 was no longer needed it was pulled. Who was in Bldg 7 that day is logically involved.
The "pods" you claim on the under side of the planes are fairings covering
the landing gear
Every 767 has them
Underside of 767
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 10:18 PM by pteridine
reply to post by ANOK
I believe that you are incorrect in your assumptions however your imagination was tricked into believing them. The measured temperature in these types of room fires is commonly 900-1000°C.
Thanks for that novel "outside the box" advice. You should spread that idea around; the MBA's will eat it up. It will probably catch on with those who have nothing to say but feel obligated to say something.
I believe that you are incorrect in your assumptions however your imagination was tricked into believing them. The measured temperature in these types of room fires is commonly 900-1000°C.
Thanks for that novel "outside the box" advice. You should spread that idea around; the MBA's will eat it up. It will probably catch on with those who have nothing to say but feel obligated to say something.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 10:41 PM by Nick_X
reply to post by pteridine
And you reckon every single employee put away every single piece of secret information that was on their desk back in the fireproof containers when they were ordered to evacuate?
What about the computers? Every single computer hard drive would not be in a fireproof container.
And you reckon every single employee put away every single piece of secret information that was on their desk back in the fireproof containers when they were ordered to evacuate?
What about the computers? Every single computer hard drive would not be in a fireproof container.
reply posted on 19-1-2009 @ 11:13 PM by pteridine
reply to post by Nick_X
You said: "And you reckon every single employee put away every single piece of secret information that was on their desk back in the fireproof containers when they were ordered to evacuate? What about the computers? Every single computer hard drive would not be in a fireproof container."
I so reckon. Classified documents are not scattered around the office and sensitive ones may have been in an exclusion area. Few or none may have been out at any given time. All that would have to be done would be to put the classified documents into the containers along with the classified hard drives [yep, detachable] and other media, shut the door and spin the dials. The CIA knows how to do this.
You said: "And you reckon every single employee put away every single piece of secret information that was on their desk back in the fireproof containers when they were ordered to evacuate? What about the computers? Every single computer hard drive would not be in a fireproof container."
I so reckon. Classified documents are not scattered around the office and sensitive ones may have been in an exclusion area. Few or none may have been out at any given time. All that would have to be done would be to put the classified documents into the containers along with the classified hard drives [yep, detachable] and other media, shut the door and spin the dials. The CIA knows how to do this.
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