Iraq Declares Christmas a National Holiday, page 4

reply to post by masonwatcher

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First, I didn't say that.

Second, Iraq was stable when Saddam was in charge because he ruled with an iron fist. They didn't accept one another. They just knew what would happen it they fought one another. It gets a bit more complicated than that too. Down to the little things like which schools were funded, who could do what and it would be considered ok.

Originally posted by whaaa
And do you not see that this is much ado about nothing. A transparent attempt to show the west that things are improving in Iraq when infact a religious,
tribal civil war could break out and be more bloody than the last one.

I am going to post what I posted in an opposite thread in regards to the current situation in Iraq.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

What "success" are you talking about?

US troop casualties to hostile attacks are now less than 10 per month, a dramatic improvement from as much as 100 deaths per month in the past. If a country of 25 million people were against the presence of US troops, why are only 8-10 US troops being killed per month? Many troops report not having had to fire their guns even once in the last 90 days.

Iraqi deaths are low. The Iraqi people have taken responsibility for removing radicals from their midst, which was the most fundamental objective for installing democracy in Iraq in the first place. Iraqi refugees, some who left as far back as during the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran War, are returning to Iraq for the first time in years. Neither Iran nor Al-Qaeda are capable of causing major violence in Iraq anymore.

The political process is stable. Iraqi elections have had high voter turnout with minimal violence, women are voting in full force. The Iraqi parliament and judiciary system are functioning moderately well. There was scarcely a country more unlikely to function as a democracy, yet this miracle has happened. We should be proud to have had the privilege to witness it. This will, eventually, lead to a domino effect of greater freedom in Iran, Syria, and Jordan. There is little to no threat of a coup in Iraq. If you consider how many cultural, regional, and sectarian forces were fighting against this outcome, the magnitude of this miracle becomes clear. What took Germany and Japan 25 years after their defeat in WWII, Iraq has achieved in under 6 years. Iraqi politicians are corrupt, but so are American politicians. If Iraqi corruption is no higher than that of India (a fully functioning democracy), that is to be considered a success.

The Iraqi economy is booming. This bodes well for Iraq. History has proven repeatedly that once a certain level of prosperity is reached, a society becomes more interested in economic activity than destabilizing violence, and the general public will unite to combat elements that are bad for business. Iraq is not at this level yet, but is on track to approach it rapidly.

Iraq's real GDP continues to grow at about 7% a year. Iraq's exports of oil are increasing, and the revenue amounts to thousands of dollars per year per Iraqi. Beyond oil, industries like financial services, telecom, and solar energy are taking root in Iraq for the first time. Internet use is surging. Most Iraqis now have cellular phones, which is very complementary to the democratic process. The Iraqi stock market is functional, and investor participation is increasing.

For the first time in years, more Americans view the Iraq War as a positive endeavor than those who have the opposite view.

I only see massive failures and the worst is still to come!

That is because you hope for failure, you emphasize only bad news while ignoring good news...
The above is especially true of many posters here.

Iraq at the moment, is a success. I predict that Iraq will be the "south Korea" of the ME.

This BS will do absolutely nothing in resolving centuries of religious animosity.
This is nothing more than PR and propaganda. The Shiites, Kurds and Sunnies
are not going to kiss and make up just because some duffus recognizes Christmas.

Europe of 1900 was just as unsuitable for democracy as the Middle East of today. The history of Europe from 1600 to 1945 is just as warlike and dysfunctional as the ME today.





[edit on 13-1-2009 by West Coast]

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

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The war in Iraq seems to have a bright spot.

One thing for certain it is refreshing to have some more good news from Iraq proving that our young men have acomplished what they set sail to do.

I hope Obama brings the surge to Afghanistan so women and girls can continue to come out from the arm of oppresion.

The war may have been mainly over oil, the Caspian basin and a pipeline but once that is up and running we need to build schools and hospitals, not forsaking the people of Afghanistan again as we did in the late 90's.

reply to post by Styki

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Down to the little things like which schools were funded, who could do what and it would be considered ok.

Do you have any respectable evidence or are you making assumptions.

Actually Saddam smashed his enemies with an iron fist. If you were not involved in politics, he was not concerned. In fact Iraq was considered a developed country at one point. Education was universal and everyone passing high school was guaranteed free university education and top students were given scholarships to study anywhere in the world. All phd students got a stipend to study abroad. There was also a free and comprehensive first class health service.

So you can damn him for lack of US style democracy, you know how important it is to vote once every four years.

reply to post by daveyp1986

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It is only a sop for American bible basher so they can say all those deaths was worth it in the end. You see it is easy to sacrifice what is not your own for the greater glory of God. Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside.

[edit on 093131p://pm3110 by masonwatcher]

reply to post by Monger

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You live in an industrialized society. It's only natural to see religion in such a way. However, for a largely tribal society, with traditional social structures, religion is very important for cultural solidarity. Religion ensures the preservation of theirs very lives. It should be made a national holiday. It's important to them.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by cognoscente]

reply to post by masonwatcher

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Well see I was in Iraq. I went out and visited the Iraq people I worked with the Iraqi army. I visited the mass grave sites of people agree with Saddam Hussian. Not huge ones, but ones of about 70 people or so. People who were not of the same religion.

I fell in love with the children so much that tears in my eye would form if they were ever abused.

I know that they have huge territory wars over religion. I have seen them. In all honesty it doesn't matter what anybody says. I have seen first hand what goes on.

Originally posted by Styki
reply to post by masonwatcher

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Well see I was in Iraq. I went out and visited the Iraq people I worked with the Iraqi army. I visited the mass grave sites of people agree with Saddam Hussian. Not huge ones, but ones of about 70 people or so. People who were not of the same religion.

I doubt you went to Iraq on a university exchange programme, or as an employee of a corp or as a culturally fulfilling sabbatical. Most likely you went with the head of an invading army.

You merely saw a nation in the grip of an imposed war. You tend not to see the best of a country when anarchy reigns and occupation is in effect. Most travellers do not get under the skin of a country while holed up in a barracks and swinging an assault rifle. Excuse me while I push aside your claims of insight of Iraq.

I know that they have huge territory wars over religion

Actually they don't, there was communal strife due to the jockeying for power after the invasion but territory and land grabs was never an issue. You also did not mention Iran's influence or the US invocation of the Salvador Option.


Those mass graves were hyped during the start of the war but not heard of again. There were mass graves after both Gulf Wars used to bury Iraqis killed on the 'Highway to Hell'. Hundred of thousands of retreating Iraqis were killed from the air by the US. Saddam also killed a few thousands to quell the uprisings encouraged by Bush senior.

All this has got nothing to do with Christmas or the new recognition of Christmas.

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