Caylee Anthony Case: The shovel and the pavers

According to one site, Cayce has likely exhibited self destructive and suicldal behaviors which fit in with her likely personality disorder(s) that may also be more likely to kill their own child.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org...

How could her parents and friends have been so clueless?

If Caylee had been a victim of child sexual abuse for awhile, her grandmother would have noticed "something is wrong" sooner, especially being a concerned grandmother and a nurse. A decomposed skeletonized body would have less likely shown evidence of sexual or physical abuse. But the toxicology should still tell about anything given to her from her hair that remained.

Now they want to cremate the bones so no one will steal them and take pictures?

reply to post by aleon1018

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You make great points I don't think the people around her were that clueless they just couldn't fully grasp the type of mind they were dealing with. My brother was extremely charismatic a real people magnet. I would warn my friends to stay away from him but his good looks & charm got them every time.

As far as the prior abuse I meant drugging not sexual abuse. Would a nurse see signs of drug use in a child the next day? Cindy did work a lot.

Cindy recently has said she is still behind her daughter and is certain Cayce would never hurt Caylee. Imo How can Cindy proclaim anything about Cayce with complete certainty when no one seems to know who Caylee's father is except Cayce? Not an open honest relationship there if Cayce is stealing money from her own grandparents. Cindy & George are not clueless just in denial as to how sick she is and completely naive as to what a person like that is really capable of. Cayce should never have been trusted with a child.

From what Cayce said to Lee, Cindy had been telling Cayce she was an unfit mother so Cindy knew. I think it was mentioned that Cindy & George were talking about adopting or taking custody of Caylee. They both knew they just didn't take action fast enough always giving Cayce the benefit of the doubt to a fault.

It does bother me that the remains have not yet been laid to rest. From what I have heard the family wants to cremate but I had heard something about the prosecution wanting to have continued access to the remains not sure if I heard right.

When George Anthony went to pick up the car and noticed the smell he was all too familiar with and supposedly did not know where Cayce or Caylee were, why didn't he follow police procedures as he had during his job as a homicide detective automatically?

Than he inspects the car and trunk and as if in denial blames it on a pizza box in a garbage bag? Than he drives the car home and his wife tries cleaning out the trunk who is also familar with this smell?

The meter reader calls the police, but doesn't call anyone else? Was he also afraid of any reprisals? And he was a bounty hunter? another person involved in law inforcement and retired from it to just be a meter reader?

The officer who shows up doesn't want to apparently go in the water with snakes or even follow up on the report as actual garbage? Was he also reluctant because this involved a fellow officers family? Another person in denial?

So, the meter reader eventually gets up the nerve after a couple of months to finally check it out for himself when the water and snakes are gone.(fine..I guess) I think my curiosity would have been much stronger long before that time, especially if I was previously a bounty hunter. I guess I give him too much credit and blame. I think I still would have made a few more phone calls and tips somewhere though.

If Cayce's dad had not been a cop, this may have been entirely different.

Cayce said she felt Caylee was close to home and yet dogs didn't hit on her remains when they should have? Was the wind blowing in the wrong direction? idk I guess the cadaver dogs were also reluctant in their duties.

Sounds to me some people and dogs will be losing their jobs or retiring also.

People in Florida must have a very high paranoia of water. Except for some divers apparently.

reply to post by aleon1018

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Exactly!

Valhall mentioned the OC deputy that lied about his relationship with Casey. You know I never looked at the LE aspect of this case that closely you and Valhall have laid it out well. If that is the case I fear all is lost we'll never know what happened and Cayce might walk. Who's to say George is not in the position to call in some favors from LE buddies.

How incredibly sad for Caylee all these LE type people in her life yet they failed to protect her. Now after the fact LE might possibly be trying to protect George's family? I just don't understand that logic.

There is blame to be placed on the grandparents (Cindy and George) for a few things. Ultimately, only one person killed Caylee, and that appears to be Casey, but there are things that this dysfunctional family did all along the way that led to a situation where a psychotic person made a deadly decision.

When Casey was pregnant she denied being pregnant until she was over 7 months. Her uncle, grandmother and others, when they saw her at 7 months, knew instantly she was pregnant, but Cindy said she was not and couldn't be because she hadn't had sex. It was a matter of just a week or so after this family get together that Casey finally came clean and said she was pregnant. So a nurse (Cindy) couln't tell her daughter was 7 months pregnant.

In addition, Casey is said to have wanted to give the baby up for adoption. Cindy would not allow her. Casey was 19 years old at the time of Caylee's birth. She was emancipated. But we see here that she was unable to make a major decision in her own life. To be quite honest, the only RIGHT thing I've heard Casey do is when she considered giving the baby up for adoption. This tells me she knew she wasn't ready for motherhood. But this dysfunctional family, and this domineering mother, Cindy, won the battle.

So I have daughter that finds out she's pregnant at 19 and she comes to me and says "Mom, I want to put the baby up for adoption." While I would talk to her about the long-term emotional implications, the non-reversal nature of the decision, the doubts and wonderings, etc. that would be in her life going forward if she did this, I would do nothing but support my daughter in this decision.

But it has been speculated that Cindy has done everything in her power for maybe all of Casey's life to make sure the world looks at Casey and Cindy's family as picture perfect. That's probably why she so readily accepted the lie Casey told that Caylee's father was killed in a car wreck. Didn't even push to know exactly what the name of her grand-daughter's father was. Because Casey's lie(s) helped Cindy pull off her lies - lie of denial and problems. Everything is perfect here.

So, not only did Cindy refuse to let Casey adopt Caylee out (and Casey not act like a grown up and do it anyway), but then, once Cindy has gotten her way, she then begins to consistently (this is backed by Lee's statements to LE) bust Casey's chops for not being a good mom. Well, Cindy, you get what you ask for. If I were to talk to my daughter into keeping a baby she outright told me she was not ready to mother, I would have to go into that situation knowing full well, my daughter is most likely not going to be the primary caregiver. You can't have it both ways. You can't force, through guilt and emotional manipulation, your child to take on a baby when they don't want to, and then expect them to just wake up the next day and be super mom. You have to be ready to be mother to the child. But instead it appears Cindy continued to use emotional abuse (and that's what it is when you constantly say things like "Caylee is the best mistake you ever made") and beratement as some form of trying to get her cake and eat it to. i.e. I want my grandbaby, but I want you to be a mother....because that's what a good family is supposed to look like.

Not only did George not follow through on the concerns he had when he smelled the car at the impoundment (i.e. call the cops), but he went back to work knowing already that Cindy was removing items from what could be a potential crime scene. He later admitted to LE that "he knew what that smell was" because he had smelled it in past homicide cases he had been involved in. But he just went back to work and left the car sitting in the garage with Cindy-the cleaning lady, who subsequent washed the pants Casey may have been wearing when she killed Caylee, and the doll that was found in the car. There is no telling what else she either washed, threw away, destroyed, etc. As late as the night before the body was found George was on Larry King saying the smell in the car was from pizza. Even after it had been confirmed in LE documents, including the analysis on the trunk, that there was never any pizza present in the car. And after George had already had his interview with OSCO stating the smell concerned him and that you never forget that smell [of decomposition].

There has been significant talk that none of the Anthonys, George, Cindy or Lee, are out of the woods yet on possible obstruction charges. In what could be perceived as an admission that they were working against the LE, as soon as the body was identified as Caylee, G&C, through their latest lawyer, requested full immunity and committed to "helping the LE in the case against their daughter". But as late as 2 days ago, Cindy was still doing indefensible things such as texting people and telling them (because they had previously voiced concerns Casey may have done something to Caylee) that they wouldn't be invited to the memorial and that she [Cindy] was supporting her daughter because Casey never did anything to harm Caylee. So if they are assisting LE, Cindy is still up to her alleged old tricks of falsely portraying her family as the Cleavers.

What I found curious during the latest hearing is that Bozo Baez, lead attorney for Casey's defense, requested all DNA and fingerprint evidence collected on G,C&L...are we about to see a family start accusing each other? While the DNA evidence makes sense to me (just as a matter of due diligence in reviewing the DNA evidence of the trunk), why in sam-hell would Casey's defense team need fingerprints on her parents and her brother? No reason at all unelss they are going to attempt to match a fingerprint on the evidence at the scene of the body to one of the members of the family.

The name has now been released on the LE who did a half-ass search of the scene on August 12th. His last name is Cain and as far as we know he is one of the few men in Orange County who was NOT boinking Casey. Concerning the dog search in the same general area. Two out of three of the meter reader's calls in August were dismissed without search because the area had been previously "cleared" by dogs. But no details have ever been released on that previous dog search to my knowledge. If some one has that information, I would appreciate you sharing it. So we are left not knowing what specific areas were "cleared" along that road in a dog search. If the search was not at that specific location, but in the general area with a description of the area search made in a rather non-descript fashion, the particular location may have never been searched - i.e. "area at Hopesprings and Suburban searched and cleared"...well, that leaves you with 4 corners of an intersection, and what would in effect be up to 1/2 mile on either side of the road going in all four directions, on both sides of the road, from the intersection. Can we be sure this specific location was actually diligently searched by the dogs? I'm not sure we can until specific details of the dog search are released.

I personally doubt it was, and this is why. Reporting from WFTV made clear that the area where Kio Marie said they hung out as kids is NOT the exact location the body was found in. It is actually across the road and closer to the elementary school. So if the area referred to by KM is where they cleared with the dogs, it most likely did not include this specific location.

Concerning the meter reader - unless I misunderstood, when he made his three calls in August, on three consecutive days, I believe he called three different agencies. He first called 911. 911 instructed him to call the Crimeline. He didn't want to, but when he was not contacted back after the first call, he called the Crimeline the next day. On the third day he called the OSCO. Short of calling the FBI I don't know who else he could have called....maybe if he had called WFTV it would have been busted sooner. Sad state of affairs to think that might be a true statement.

Concerning Caylee's remains. As reported by the local Orlando news agencies, the body has been fully released to the Anthonys for some time now. It is not LE holding up the memorial, but the Anthonys (and possibly the defense team).


[edit on 1-15-2009 by Valhall]

reply to post by Morningglory

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You are correct. However, we also have a substantial problem with infant abandonment leading to death in Florida and most of the those cases also are hispanic. Most people who beat their kids to death here are black or white.

Clearly no race is exempt. If the names on the mailboxes are in fact Zenaida and Gonzalez I would think it was just a matter of convenience with no racial intent. This case is convoluted enough without throwing race in the mix. Maybe I'm wrong.

Valhall, I think you may have hit the nail on the head as far as Cindy still trying to live the lie. I think they're both delusional. It's possible Cindy & Cayce played out their psycho wars using Caylee as ammo.

I can't help think about Marc Klaas he requested a lie detector test right off the bat so police could clear him and move on. The Anthony family seems to be going in the complete opposite direction with all their immunity worries.

So what since no one can agree on what to do with Caylee she sits in a cardboard box? That poor baby was left like trash for so long they need to finally get their #%$& together at least on this.

I have considered from the begining of this horrible ordeal that there is a shred, just a tiny shred, of truth when Casey tells her lies. She takes one piece of truth and adds 99 percent lies to it and tells her newest bestest lie. Given that, my theory is that Casey murdered little Caylee, and was going to bury her in the backyard, and was unable to stick with it long enough to make an unoticeable grave, I think this happened after Caylee had already been in the trunk for a couple of days. So she dug her right back up, leaving the scent in the backyard ( the dogs hit specifically on the spot where Caylee's playhouse was sitting) she put her in the trunk, and drove to the abandoned house, where she then dumped the body. Now here is where Casey's 'shred of truth' comes in. When Casey says she did not know where Caylee was, she meant it. She was telling the absolute truth. I believe that. But it was because Caylee's body was no longer where she left it. She went back to it, and it was gone. Maybe dragged off by animals or whatever could have, but it was moved. So this gave Casey her convincing ' I absolutley do not know where my daughter is' line, and her parents know her best, they knew when she said this, she wasn't lying. So their confusion made them back her up. It is possible too that given the body was found so close to home that it was dragged from the anthony home to where it was found. There were bones found along a trail beside their home, but I haven't heard yet if they were human or not.

reply to post by Valhall

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Thanks for putting it all together very well.

Casey is no doubt one really sociopathic messed up human being. She tells so many lies that I find it hard that anybody around her believes anything she says. The fact is they don't - that's why she has to continue moving around place to place creating short term relationships. She relies on her charm & looks and it doesn't last long.

Knowing what is known now and watching her jail conversations takes one right inside Casey's head and how she operates. Though I don't feel sad for her, I feel sad for her as a human being - as there's something clearly missing and she can't ever be fixed.

Her family is a piece of work - just like her and though I haven't seen enough of her dad to have much opinion of him, but the fact he was a LEO makes me suspicious of the training or attitude toward people/human life he handed down - I find her mother pretty scary too.

It's amazing that this case got so much media attention and people were not only walking around the body at least a month before it was discovered by authorities, but that authorities ignored multiple requests to check out the body bag.

While the blundering LEO's on this case have made it more difficult to prosecute - I have no doubt Casey will spend a big chunk of her life in prison for this.

The questions I have are - how could her mother waited so long to go to police? Did she wait until she had a battle with Casey, and knew all along? Think about it what she said on the phone was almost too perfect in order to create separation - I smell a dead body. Of course it's possible her mother was stupider than Casey, but I wonder.

My curiosity, was the death intentional or accidental and why or why not?

[edit on 16-1-2009 by verylowfrequency]

I do agree that the LE have made some sloppy moves - 1. should have taken the car sooner, 2. should have taken tips on the location search more serious, and probably a couple of more if I think of it, but I'm not as hard on them as some of you are because I do think they are trying. It's just they have some momentary lapses of judgment along the way - and in each of those rare cases it has been an apparent underestimation of the value of the evidential opportunity they had. Considering we're dealing with humans in all parts of this, I kind of want to give them some benefit of the doubt...but still, they have made a couple of wrong moves.

I believe there needs to be accountability for all the slips up that have occurred (for instance, why was Lee Anthony allowed to go pick up Casey's stuff from Tony Lazarro's apartment?) There is much speculation, with Lee being in the IT business, that he "blue screened" the laptop he picked up. He claims when he got there the laptop was sitting with a blue screen - I'm not sure that's true. I have not read any interview so far where TL has been asked whether Lee's claim that the laptop was sitting with a bluescreen when he arrived is true or not. That question and answer may have not been released yet. But if it hasn't been asked - LE needs to be asking it. Tony wasn't the only person there on that night. There was another guy (would have to go look up his name right now) who also could be asked if the laptop was sitting bluescreened. I would think, under the circumstances of Lee's visit that night, that if he walked over to that laptop - which claims was sitting on the counter right there in open view - and it was sitting with a bluescreen, there would have been some comment about it - like, anybody know what the deal is with this? But then, I continually try to force the Anthony family to behave in a normal manner, and continue to have to do the duh forehead slap when I catch myself doing it. They haven't behaved too normally yet.

If Lee DID mess with the laptop in an attempt to just wipe the data, what other evidence might have been tampered with or destroyed between him picking it up at TL's apartment and finally making it to the Anthony house where the deputies were still questioning KC?

And why, when he did arrive at the Anthony hosue, was he allowed to just dump the contents of her bag out on the living room floor right there in front of a deputy and Cindy start going through it taking stuff?

Was the fact that a baby had been missing for a month unreported not enough to just lock the Anthony house, and the apartment where Casey had been for the past month, down like Fort Knox? I would think, with the information they had obtained by the time Lee was sent over to Tony's apartment, they could have had a enough concern for Caylee's well-being and enough doubts about Casey's story, that they could have gotten a search warrant for BOTH locations. I think that's one of the more disturbing slip ups by LE so far - that, and not finding this body sooner when they had multiple chances to.

BUT, I also think most of their work as been awesome, professional and focused. It's the focused part that chaps the entire Anthony family's collective butts. They desparately wanted to defocus the investigation - to obfuscate and distract with stories of sightings of a live Caylee, that no one was listening or following up on what KC had given. The LE has done an awesome job of showing due diligence on tips that they probably knew darn well were worthless, while maintaining a dogged determination of the investigation of what they clearly understood within hours to days was most likely a homicide case.

reply to post by Morningglory

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I'm still waiting for any forensic testing on hair samples etc. to come back for drugs etc. I would imagine hair samples would be somewhere still in the house and car as well.

www.astm.org...


How Caylee a 3 year old was able not to tell her grandma what her and her mom were doing had to be really hard for her with loyalties to both of them or through bribes and threats. To think Cindy wouldn't ever ask to catch Cayce in a lie seems unlikely. I think Grandmas usually outspoil their grandchildren.

Maybe Cindy just didn't want to know, discuss or deal with the truth whether she heard it anyway. I guess that's what an enabler does and are brought up that way? idk I haven't read the alleged testimonies from people who know Cayce and the family. I guess there may be quite a few who will testify in court also.

reply to post by Valhall

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I do agree LE has put forth a good effort considering the Anthony's have been less than cooperative. Imo LE does have more evidence they're not releasing. That's my hope anyway.

I think that was strange that TL's apartment and the Anthony home wasn't secured. it's possibly due to George's association with LE investigators felt these people were on the up and up.

Verylowfrequency brings up Cindy's 911 call. The fact that she reported both the smell and Caylee missing at the same time shows Cindy felt the two were connected. George admitted to police he was familiar with the smell of death. In this interview George said when he got a whiff of the car he was afraid to open the trunk. For a cop and a nurse to later retract this key bit of information in favor of rotting pizza that wasn't even there is ridiculouss and suspect.

Imo that 911 phone call reporting a missing child and the smell of death should have been a red flag for police to lock everything down tight. It's one thing to receive a report on a missing child but when the family member is frantically referring to a death smell I think that in itself would have set this case apart from other more typical missing children reports. Idk it kinda reeks of JonBenet.

I wonder about George also at the onset he seemed to be the only one speaking honestly to LE. Seems like Cindy has reined him in.

Space cadet mentioned the abandon house I wonder what made the PI look there? From what I understand the searches with LE dogs occurred in and around the Anthony home later a psychic with her own dog went to an empty lot down a bit and across the street from where the remains where found. The dog didn't hit on anything. Space cadet also said bones were found along a trail by the house does this trail just happen to lead to the empty lot?

As far as has been released, there is no trail from the Anthony house. The trail of bones was in the general location of the body. Most likely it is due to animals carrying off parts of the body.

[edit on 1-16-2009 by Valhall]

I believe this article may be what Space Cadet is referring to, regarding the trail of bones found. It was said that some were actually found in a lot beside the Anthony home, but at the time they were not determined to be human or not, supporting the theory that the body/bag was dragged off from it' original location.
www.wesh.com...

I don't see anything in this article that ties to the trail of bones to anything next to the Anthony house...keeping in mind that the location of the body was about .4 miles from their house. It does not mention any bones found on a lot beside the Anthony home.

The trail of bones was reported to be in the near vicinity to the bag with the skull. The article states here:



I have not read anything referring to any evidence that would point to the body being dragged from the Anthony home to the final location.

New information released on the evidence found with the body.

1. heart-shaped sticker was intentionally placed on top of the duck tape that had been wrapped around the baby's head.

2. body was inside a cloth laundry bag placed inside a black trash bag

3. size 3 toddler shirt, white shorts with vertical stripes

4. Winnie the Pooh blanket

5. a Dora the Explorer aDORAble backpack.

www.wftv.com...

reply to post by Valhall

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Thanks for the info and link. That heart shaped sticker reminds me of something Leonard Padilla said about Cayce having all kinds of art and crafts supplies.

Sounds like Cindy suspected early on. I can't believe she was talking to co-workers about the dead body smell and the possibility of the baby being dead.

The heart sticker creeps me out. Cayce's conversation with her ex about the "baby medicine" and his reference to chloroform on his myspace page is too much of a coincidence.

I wonder why they are bringing up the fact that the meter reader identified the bag as gray? Maybe it was covered in dry mud and looked gray.

Yeah, the heart sticker just throws a new twist into the mix, that can both hurt and potentially help Casey.

First of all I've never ever heard of any dead body found with such a post death decoration - it means the killer loved the child or at least wanted to leave the heart for others to find if her concern is only for herself(the twist).

I believe that the heart points to Casey's guilt - another nail. On the other hand it could potentially lower the charge or conviction & could effect the ultimate sentence.

The closer we look the stranger this case gets.