To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Flyers, Clearskies et al thanks for the debate so far.

Just for the record my personal views are that abortion is acceptable and indeed moral in some cases up until the point where the zygote becomes a fetus. Once a fetus can live on its own, aborting it is tantamount to murder. However before that point it is a (biologically speaking) parasitic organism, and is the material posession of the mother to do with it whatever she pleases.

I also believe in aborting a fetus that will almost certainly experience nothing but pain. In my personal estimation, if a soul is not born into one body, it will be born into another one. For me, conception is not a magical or divine act. Birth is the real magical act. Nobody would be moved to tears if they saw a cell dividing... but hearing the first cry of their baby is no doubt a moving thing.


If you folks would like to keep debating, perhaps we can get to the bottom of one thing:

Why is it exactly that you feel a zygote (say, an embryo around 4 weeks old) has human rights and must be protected against abortion? How is that ball of cells any different to any other ball of cells in the mother's body.

Listen up...

Because the "ball of cells" is going to grow up to laugh and cry and put the smack down on you for saying that it is undeserving of living. The mole on the Moms back won't laugh at anytime soon.

But you have gotten away from your original post.

Abortion kills a human not a ball of cells. You can't even get an abortion until about 6-7 weeks, right around the time you see a heartbeat.

Oh, let me guess, that mole on Mom's back has a heartbeat?

Why don't YOU listen up crmanager?

Abortion is the choice of the mother, and no one, NOT EVEN YOU, has the right to judge the mother who made her choice.

And now that I'm thinking about it, if you believe your own signature at all, you are really being a hypocrite here.

It is impossible for me not to get emotional when considering this issue. I guess Mother Theresa said it best, IMO, "Something is terribly wrong with America when mothers are killing their babies." Human life has been devalued and it breaks my heart.

Give life a chance

or not.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Why don't YOU listen up crmanager?

Abortion is the choice of the mother, and no one, NOT EVEN YOU, has the right to judge the mother who made her choice.

And now that I'm thinking about it, if you believe your own signature at all, you are really being a hypocrite here.

Oooooo! hear that? That is the sound of a nerve being touched.

I am not judging. Judging means there is choices. Abortion is not a choice.

Go ahead "Mom." I won't stop you.

I can't imagine having such little regard for a childs life. I will continue telling people that abortion doesn't have to happen and let them be the judge of a childs life.

reply to post by crmanager


Of course abortion is a choice. Everything you do is a choice.

Essentially what you are saying is that to protect some random woman's child you would be prepared to use state-sanctioned force to prevent her from having an abortion; irrespective of the conditions.

I wanted to keep this civil, so I wont start ranting... but your views appear equally extreme to that of the terrorists.

"Ohhh educating girls... thats not a choice. They are girls, they have no right to education. Whatever they want is irrelevant" Say the Taliban.

"My duty is to protect unborn children everywhere. It doesnt matter if I cause huge emotional distress to the mother, invade her natural rights, stick my nose where it doesnt belong, show a cavalier disregard for her opinions etc" Say you?

I think that this guy has nailed my opinion better than words i can find.


rip bill hicks

reply to post by crmanager


crmanager...

can I safely guess your gender? male?

walk a mile in someone else's shoes...

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Of course abortion is a choice. Everything you do is a choice.

It's not a choice for the child. No one asks the child if he or she wants to be killed by his or her mother before being born.

The woman who commits abortion doesn't stop her own heart from beating. She stops someone else's heart from beating. That's homocide.

reply to post by FlyersFan


just like "noone ever asks to be born"?

life's rich tapestry of difficult choices - thank god you dont ever have to make that choice.

What about in cases where the mother has a health condition that worsens by pregnancy and threatens her life? I personally agree with the pro-choice side of the house in general anyway, but in cases where the mother has a condition like for example, chronic hypertension, which can be exacerbated during pregnancy...is it in her best interest to continue on with the pregnancy if a doctor has advised otherwise? Suppose the meds stop working for her and the blood pressure cannot be controlled, and the pregnancy is literally killing her? What should she do?

reply to post by 44soulslayer


ok, I have not read everyone's replies but here is what I think.

The baby is always innocent.

However, if it is determined that while in the womb that the baby is going to have some serious issues then I am not against abortion.

What I mean is, I would not want to be born and have to live my entire life with some horrible disfigurement or mental impairment.

This is a decision that needs to be made by the parents and the doctors. Not the gov.

In addition, if a Woman became pregnant against her will, rape, incest, etc.. it should be left up to the Mother whenever or not she wants to have the child. It is not the unborn baby's fault, but it is also not the Mothers fault and simply sometimes life just sucks and is not fair.

too all the people who feel it is there "right" to be able to choose whether to give birth or abort, shouldn't you have thought about that when you did the naughty and used a contraception, if you have an accident or you are not 100% sure that the sex was safe then have a morning after pill, if you leave it up to chance then you have made your choice, and dont you think that the child that you kill has "rights", once you have a child your views on this subject will change and you may feel a lot of regret towards your actions if you had an abortion in the past, who would that child have grown to be and they would be this age by now, you cant turn the clock back, you are killing your own children, it is matricide, very sad.

there must be special circumstanses to have an abortion not because you want to change your mind or you cant afford it, would you be happy if on your 10th birthday your mum and dad threw you into a bath of toxic chemicals to kill you because they couldn't afford to keep you anymore!!

I will not make a right or wrong prononcement here, as I am simply tired of arguing them, but I will say this.

Those who want to restrict birth control should not be so ignorant to think that this won't drive pregnancy rates, and by extention untimely pregnancies and abortion rates.

Those who want to restrict birth control and outlaw abortion, shoudl not be so foolish as to think this won't lead to a drastic increase in "Alternate" abortion methods like the lady punching her stomach, and a general rise in child abuse.

I do not think that every woman who has an abortion is going to regret it. Many get on just fine. I do think that it is a very bad thing for those who would rather keep the baby but are pressured into having an abortion, especially if they are surrounded by people who would call them a murderer.

reply to post by asmeone2


i agree we should never attack people who have done it and call them murderers but we should try to disuade those who might be trying to make the choice, people should not be talked in to it, it is their life and as i stated in my last post they are the masters of their own destiny, it is just sad that when the process of life takes hold it is a life , i think that the people who use abortion as a means of birth control are very poor people to extinguish life so easily, any woman imo who does not have any feelings about having had an abortion is either suppressing them or is a cold person

reply to post by annefran


and then he will be a mile away and in somebody elses shoes

Been reading the debate so far, makes for some interesting thinking, so thanks for that.

In all honesty, I'm pro abortion. I don't know why really, which probably weakens my arguement, but it's just never occurred to me to think that it's wrong. I can completely understand the arguement against it, saying that from the moment of conception it's alive, and therefore killing it would be murder..but as much as I can understand that, I just don't agree with it. To me, as harsh as this might sound, I don't condsider a ball of cells, while admittedly living, to be the same as a fully grown child, that can survive on it's own. So, to me the arguement that it's murder seems a little strange. Though, not really on second thought, seeing as I've admitted it's living.

One example people have used a lot is rape, whether it can be justified then. Of course what the biological father did isn't the child's fault, just as obviously it's not the woman's fault that she's fallen pregnant because of it. I just don't think that it's fair for the woman to be forced to live with a reminder of what happened growing inside her for 9 months if she honest to god doesn't want to. In cases like this, I believe if she wants an abortion and has thought about it, then she should be able to have one. Alright, by the same standard it's not fair for the unborn child, but in all honesty my concern is for the mother, what's going to be most beneficial to her health, mental or otherwise. Again, same with pregnancies occuring due to incest, although seeing as I'm talking about cases where it wasn't consensual and I've already addressed that above, I don't see the need to go into it again.

The grey area for me is when it comes to women who've gotten pregnant because they didn't use protection or because the condom split, etc. First off, I don't believe this is a damn excuse. You can quite easily go to the chemists and get the morning after pill (useful for up to 72 hours after the unprotected sex occurred). Or hell, even before that, use some other form of protection, the contraceptive rod, or contraceptive injection. In this day and age, when there's so many different types of contraception available to women, there's no excuse for having completely unprotected sex. Now that that's out of my system.. I can still understand the arguement for abortion in this case. And I do think that it would be better for the woman to have the child but give it up for adoption once it's born. That said, if the woman wants to get an abortion, I wouldn't stop her. To me it's her choice.

Where I really want to say no, is when women get abortion after abortion, and just uses it as a form of birth control. That to me, is disgusting, shows a complete lack of regard for the woman's own body. But, if she's so willing to do that, it says to me that she's not the type of woman that's adult enough to raise a child. So..I could lean towards making her at least continue through the pregnancy and then have the child adopted out, after birth. Problem is, I'd find myself uncomfortable with making someone continue a pregnancy they obviously didn't want. So..jury's out for me on that last situation, I can't find an option that I'd be comfortable with.

Bottom line: I'd support whatever a woman chose to do. Though if she's using it as a form of contraception she needs to grow the # up and start acting like a responsible member of society.

(And, as you can see from my going back and forth in my own mind, this isn't supposed to be an arguement, more, my own thoughts).

reply to post by DarkPassenger


From your diologue I will assume you are in Europe.

Here in the US we often have problems with contraceptive availbility. The more reliable prescriptions are only availible through a doctor's prescription, so not an option for young people who would need a parent's permission or anyone without health insurance.

To make matters worse, there are, in some places, legal protection for doctors and pharmacists who refuse to fill contraceptive or morning-after pills based on their religious views.

So unfortunately, condoms and spermicides are sometiems the only protection availible for some people.

It is very frustrating, for the reasons I already stated.

A pesonal gripe of mine, is here in the US, abortion is the *only* issue that a lot of people vote on. If the politician pays lip service to the pro-life movement, he gets the vote, even though this often comes at the expence of those who are already born and grown.

reply to post by asmeone2


You're right, I'm from the Uk. As far as I'm aware here, you can go to pretty much any chemist and get the morning after pill, or just make an appointment at a clinic, or the doctors and get any of the alternative forms of contraception I mentioned. I didnt' take the cost of the medicine in the US into account actually, just take it for granted that it's low cost/free here. Still, at least over here where as I say, it's available in pretty much everywhere to my knowledge, I don't see any reason why people can't take responsibility for their actions

As for the legal protection you mentioned, for doctors and pharmacists, I've heard about that here, but only the isolated case, where they won't give the morning after pill to women that have asked. Mostly, it seems if you want it, then you can get it.

Can imagine the frustration, knowing it's there, but out of reach for so many people, who in all honesty need it. Seems this is what people should be focusing on, getting people better access to contraception, and teaching them to use it..instead of the focus on abortions, trying to make them illegal/restricted.

reply to post by DarkPassenger


You would think, but typically the same people who want to do away with abortions are the ones who want to push abstinance only or beleive that contraceptives are wrong, period.

reply to post by asmeone2

I am not catholic. Maybe that's the difference.
I don't, nor does anyone I know, (Even at church) think contraceptives should be abolished.

They are free to young people at the Health Department.